The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

You are making the assumption that one can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body, no place in scripture does this claim exist. If it did then all those from Adam till Jesus could not accept Jesus and thus be lost forever. Unless you don’t believe scripture that says “ none come to the Father except through Jesus “ or you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father.

Where does Jesus say that "none come to the Father except through Jesus" applied retroactively to old testament people?

 

[Der Alte]

I don’t want you to think you’re being ignored but I don’t think responding to your posts is for me. I will let the Holy Spirit work on you I have done my part.

Odd. I get a lot of that here and in other forums. However, I will continue to respond to posts which are incorrect, including yours.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Odd. I get a lot of that here and in other forums. However, I will continue to respond to posts which are incorrect, including yours.

Hello my friend. Dropped you an email a while back, maybe a couple weeks? Some thoughts worthy of your consideration. Had a chance to have a look see? I can resend if needed …

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are making the assumption that one can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body, no place in scripture does this claim exist. If it did then all those from Adam till Jesus could not accept Jesus and thus be lost forever. Unless you don’t believe scripture that says “ none come to the Father except through Jesus “ or you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father.

All who are born on earth have the true Light and if they hate that might they are condemned if they believe and come to that Light they will be saved inwardly this Light is the word of Christ in them the seed down the truth they hold . Abraham had christ in him Galatians 3 as all believers do in the past or future.

A long discussion though about how God saves the unevangelized

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Where does Jesus say that "none come to the Father except through Jesus" applied retroactively to old testament people?

It has to apply to them unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. If you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father then why did Jesus die for our sins if we could just kill a cow or sheep or goat? The only other thought is that they were all lost in there sins forever because we know that the blood of sheep and goats does not forgive sin.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Because they are present in the persons who did the various works, and they lie, obviously. And these bad unseen actors are considered strangers by Jesus.

I am a Christian Universalist however that encompasses a fairly wide array of positions from various claimants. I had to sort through most of the variants a couple plus decades ago. It's a very diverse group with a lot of semi crazy stuff and a fair amount of heresies. Not much different than the common denominations that way.

One can be a Chrisitan Universalist and still adhere to eternal punishment/damnation of the devil and his messengers, which settled both side of the equations for me.

Jesus can look any of us directly in the face and speak to the tempter or his own, in any of us. I actually look forward to hearing "depart from me ye workers of iniquity." cough cough, we ALL work iniquity, so what gain is there in lying? Funny how the majority run away from His Words in this particular regard when that should be our day of rejoicing.

His Words, all of them, are life to us. The challenge is to find the good on the darker Words, and my ears have been opened somewhat in this regard. It's deep mining territory for those who are brought into interests. Not for surface dwellers.

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Eph. 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The spirit of disobedience is the devil and his own.

The only difference between us and the common unbeliever is we are actually supposed to see our situation, and battle-resist it. NOT to deny we have a wrestling match on our own hands.

I tell people that this time for the true believers is our Lake Of Fire time. We are called to die to self, self purging, with the help from Jesus, if we die to self now and let God purge out our dross we don’t have to do it in the next age. Most will not die to self in this mortal body age and then they must in the next age but it’s going to be very painful and maybe long only God knows for sure how it will work out.

 

[Der Alte]

It has to apply to them unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. If you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father then why did Jesus die for our sins if we could just kill a cow or sheep or goat? The only other thought is that they were all lost in there sins forever because we know that the blood of sheep and goats does not forgive sin.

Merely stating your conclusion "It has to apply to them unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father." does NOT make your assumptions true. Where does Jesus. Himself, or the Father, Himself, specifically say that O.T. Jews must be baptized etc?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I tell people that this time for the true believers is our Lake Of Fire time. We are called to die to self, self purging, with the help from Jesus, if we die to self now and let God purge out our dross we don’t have to do it in the next age. Most will not die to self in this mortal body age and then they must in the next age but it’s going to be very painful and maybe long only God knows for sure how it will work out.

I understand your position.

Even though I believe all people will be saved I don't agree with the position of some universalists, that people will be temporarily tortured later.

It's a position used to bring fear and gain adherents by the professional clergy class. Not much different than the eternal torment of people camps we walked away from with a temporary twist

And fwiw some universalist positions still adhere to the eternal torment of the devil and his messengers. I don't promote Satanic salvation nor do I believe it's necessary, critical or taught in the scriptures

 

[Der Alte]

It has to apply to them unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. If you believe that there are multiple ways to the Father then why did Jesus die for our sins if we could just kill a cow or sheep or goat? The only other thought is that they were all lost in there sins forever because we know that the blood of sheep and goats does not forgive sin.

Please show me scripture which specifically states that deceased Jews will be made alive and be required to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and be baptized.

 

[Der Alte]

I understand your position.
Even though I believe all people will be saved I don't agree with the position of some universalists, that people will be temporarily tortured later.
It's a position used to bring fear and gain adherents by the professional clergy class. Not much different than the eternal torment of people camps we walked away from with a temporary twist
And fwiw some universalist positions still adhere to the eternal torment of the devil and his messengers. I don't promote Satanic salvation nor do I believe it's necessary, critical or taught in the scriptures

Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible Matt 25:46 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Matt 7:21 It is not everyone who tells me, ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did not we prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I [Jesus] will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible Matt 25:46 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Matt 7:21 It is not everyone who tells me, ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did not we prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I [Jesus] will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

Man shall live by every word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

People who read about sheep and goats and are decevied to think that they never do goat works probably aren't listening too closely

 

[Der Alte]

Man shall live by every word of God, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

People who read about sheep and goats and are decevied to think that they never do goat works probably aren't listening too closely

And they can't do that if they don't have the word of God as some people imply e.g. "The Bible has been changed. words have been left out ." etc.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And they can't do that if they don't have the word of God as some people imply e.g. "The Bible has been changed. words have been left out ." etc.

I have no issues as a Christian Universalist and "fundamental" in the N.Creed, with eternal hell

for the devil and his messengers

Since these parties, mankind and devils are currently overlapped and have been since day 1 of mankind, it's much easier to accept everything that God says and apply it personally, understanding we are all under the internal influences of the tempter and or his own

 

[Der Alte]

I have no issues as a Christian Universalist and "fundamental" in the N.Creed, with eternal hell
for the devil and his messengers
Since these parties, mankind and devils are currently overlapped and have been since day 1 of mankind, it's much easier to accept everything that God says and apply it personally, understanding we are all under the internal influences of the tempter and or his own

That ain't what Jesus said.

Matthew 25:41-46​

(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:​

(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.​

(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?​

(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.​

(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

John 3:17-18​

(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

John 5:29​

(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Merely stating your conclusion "It has to apply to them unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father." does NOT make your assumptions true. Where does Jesus. Himself, or the Father, Himself, specifically say that O.T. Jews must be baptized etc?

So you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father? Please show me in scripture that your position is true. And if true why did Jesus have to die if people could get to the Father a different way.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I understand your position.

Even though I believe all people will be saved I don't agree with the position of some universalists, that people will be temporarily tortured later.

It's a position used to bring fear and gain adherents by the professional clergy class. Not much different than the eternal torment of people camps we walked away from with a temporary twist

And fwiw some universalist positions still adhere to the eternal torment of the devil and his messengers. I don't promote Satanic salvation nor do I believe it's necessary, critical or taught in the scriptures

What do you mean by temporary torture? I believe that each will give an account of what they did and all those who did not accept Jesus while in the mortal body rejected his forgiveness must give account how that is going to happen I don’t know. One of the best ideas I have heard is that those people must experience themselves all that they have done to harm others and they will have to go through that themselves and this will show them what they have done and that will turn them to repentance. But no body gets away with anything that is a given. I do believe that God is going to restore all his creation that’s what Apokatastasis is all about the redemption of the cosmos. Col 1:19-22/ Rev 11:15 the Kingdom of the cosmos has become the Lords. I am of the camp that God will restore all even satan and all the fallen angels everything. Why would God create something that he has to torture forever? I don’t think he would, because sin would be never ending and not eliminated.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Der Alte: That ain't what Jesus said.

I totally agree and accept what Jesus says

The only difference is in your limited formula you only hear Jesus speaking to people

Yet you acknowledge Jesus also speaks to devils "in people"

I'd suggest your positions are in conflict when you selectively ignore the other party

A similar problem is in play when people read that a good tree only produces good fruit and a bad tree evil fruit, and people never consider they also think and do evil just as Jesus said

Same when Jesus says depart from me ye workers of iniquity

WE ALL work iniquity, yet we really don't want to hear the fact of it from Jesus

I'd suggest evil in us all really isn't going to hear, nor is it capable of being honest or hearing/agreeing with what Jesus says

 

[Der Alte]

So you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father? Please show me in scripture that your position is true. And if true why did Jesus have to die if people could get to the Father a different way.

That ain't the way it works. You have stated what I consider a nonbiblical requirement. I asked you to back that up with scripture. I am still waiting.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That ain't the way it works. You have stated what I consider a nonbiblical requirement. I asked you to back that up with scripture. I am still waiting.

Ok you have heard it many times but why not one more time maybe this you will understand.John 14:6 “ I am ( that’s Jesus) the way the truth and the life , no one comes to the Father except through me( that’s Jesus just in case you didn’t catch it) This seems to say that no one ,that’s people, can come to the Father but through Jesus. So either Jesus was confused and forgot that people could go to God in a different way , or he was telling the truth, the only way to get to the Father is through Jesus. It’s very clear, unless you believe that there are multiple ways to get to the Father and Jesus was lying. There are only two choices, I do not see why you can’t or won’t understand that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where does Jesus say that "none come to the Father except through Jesus" applied retroactively to old testament people?

This is a good question. Thinking about it, since Jesus is quoted saying it prior to His resurrection it would still be part of the old testament, technically.