The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Jeff Saunders]

Can you substantiate in any credible way your oft repeated accusation "the 'scholars' of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true." And I don't mean "Scholar 'X' said so." When I earned my Master of Divinity degree about 4 decades ago I was required to take 2 semesters of Greek and 1 semester of Hebrew and zero semesters of Latin. Since all professors were required to know Greek and Hebrew If there was some discrepancy with translation of scripture, they would have known it. So it must be false. If you cannot substantiate your accusation with credible, verifiable evidence I suggest you refrain from repeating the accusation. And OBTW there is a big difference between "translation of scripture" and "what the early church fathers wrote."

It matters not what “evidence I give unless it agreed with your interpretation of things you dismiss it out of hand and are not willing to do your own homework and try to understand what others are trying to say. But here it goes- until Augustine gained control most of the church used the Greetwhen looking at scripture, he did not know Greek and used Latin, and according to Dr Michael Heiser his Latin translation was not very good. Once he gained control Latin became the official language of the church. Even today some Catholic Churches still use the Latin as the official language in church. When the reformation happened Luther and Calvin left the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church did not leave them they still used the translation that was influenced by the Latin, that’s why you have the “ eternal hell” because of bad translation and that is why the scholars of today who have been trained in that school of thinking all mostly agree but those who go back and study the Greek and it’s usage of 2000+ years ago are the ones saying that the Latin got Aion and Aionios wrong. That’s the way I have understood how things have gone. You will disagree and that’s fine , I think anyone who is intellectually honest can see what I am trying to say they might not agree with the conclusion but we all get to make up our own minds and seek God for truth. Just because your professors said something that doesn’t make it correct. Truth is true no matter what the source, I don’t follow the worlds way of thinking that everything must be backed by what the world thinks .

 

[Der Alte]

It matters not what “evidence I give unless it agreed with your interpretation of things you dismiss it out of hand and are not willing to do your own homework and try to understand what others are trying to say. But here it goes- until Augustine gained control most of the church used the Greetwhen looking at scripture, he did not know Greek and used Latin, and according to Dr Michael Heiser his Latin translation was not very good. Once he gained control Latin became the official language of the church. Even today some Catholic Churches still use the Latin as the official language in church.

Non-Catholic churches have never used Latin. I do not personally know any pastor or teacher/professor who relies on anything written in Latin.

When the reformation happened Luther and Calvin left the Catholic Church but the Catholic Church did not leave them they still used the translation that was influenced by the Latin, that’s why you have the “ eternal hell” because of bad translation and that is why the scholars of today who have been trained in that school of thinking all mostly agree but those who go back and study the Greek and it’s usage of 2000+ years ago are the ones saying that the Latin got Aion and Aionios wrong.

The Jews had a belief in a place of eternal punishment centuries before Luther, Calvin or Augustine. They called this place of fiery eternal punishment both gehinnom and sheol. Written as Gehenna and hades in the N.T. See link to articles from Jewish encyclopedia, immediately below.

GE-HINNOM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

That’s the way I have understood how things have gone. You will disagree and that’s fine , I think anyone who is intellectually honest can see what I am trying to say they might not agree with the conclusion but we all get to make up our own minds and seek God for truth. Just because your professors said something that doesn’t make it correct. Truth is true no matter what the source, I don’t follow the worlds way of thinking that everything must be backed by what the world thinks

.
Once again a link to my post from '23, 24 vss. showing aionios being defined as eternal/everlasting etc..

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

No Latin, no Luther, no Calvin and no Augustine only scripture. My post has never been credibly addressed and certainly not refuted.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Why drag Jesus into the picture? By asking this you are showing that you have not realized that Jesus is everything. He created this world and sustains this world and loves his creation and it it only because of Jesus that we live and move and have our being. It’s all about Jesus and what he did and what he is doing and what he will do, Jesus is the savior of the world so how can it not be about Jesus? For your other objection, I never said everyone was a Christian in this life . But we are all Gods children and he loves his creation and God does not do abandonment, Jesus came down into our delusional thinking and sacrificed himself for all humanity and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for God will not be robbed. Few find this now , most find it in the next age, God is long suffering and he has all the time he needs till every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. So why drag Jesus in because we have nothing without him.

If you read your claim, essentially that if everyone was a Christian everything would be just hunky dory

I simply pointed out that wouldn't be the case and that the practices of either ethics or good moral choices without Jesus would accomplish your same claim.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

If you read your claim, essentially that if everyone was a Christian everything would be just hunky dory

I simply pointed out that wouldn't be the case and that the practices of either ethics or good moral choices without Jesus would accomplish your same claim.

Every good ethic and moral is from Jesus. Christians are not the only ones with good morals and ethics, there are plenty of non believers that have good morals and ethics you don’t have to follow Jesus to have good ethics and morals. They don’t know that their morals and ethics are from God , we do and give him praise , the none believer will have less to give account for in the next age but they still have to bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord and they will ,but they lose their inheritance. And to your first point I don’t think I said if everyone was a Christian but that if everyone would follow Jesus and his teachings, there is sadly a difference in today’s world.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

One example from Spanish shows nothing about Greek to English.

Nothing here specifically addresses Greek to English.

I have answered it twice. The same writer, Paul in the same writing, book of Romans, used aionios synonymous with aidios. Here are the vss. again since you have difficulty understanding.

Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Romans 2:7​

(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [aionios] eternal life:​

Rom 1:20 God's power and Godhead are eternal [aidios] Rom 2:7 immortality, eternal [aionios] life. Immortality defines aionios as eternal.

I have never said "the noun Aion means age" "Aion mean eternity.[noun] Show me something written by a scholar about this supposed "rule."

One example from Spanish is not relevant! See if you can find one other Greek adjective that requires 2, 3, 4 words to translate into English. Nothing you have said refutes anything I said in my study of all occurrences of aionios.

Nothing here that specifically refutes anything I said.

Very well my friend …

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

the none believer will have less to give account for in the next age but they still have to bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord and they will

Why wouldn't 1 John 4:7 apply to every person?

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

but they lose their inheritance

That's speculative. We are all going to suffer some loss, per 1 Cor. 3:12-13

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why wouldn't 1 John 4:7 apply to every person?

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

That's speculative. We are all going to suffer some loss, per 1 Cor. 3:12-13

Yes we are all good to be tested by fire I agree. I , when talking about an inheritance was equating it with what some versions call our reward. 2John 1:8 / Mark 9:41 / Luke 6:23 /Matt 5:12 and 10:42 Thea scripture’s all talk about a reward eithe gained or lost . Those who follow Jesus while in the mortal body gain an inheritance those who are judged to have not followed Jesus lose their inheritance. Just like the example of Jacob and Esau, Esau sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup . Many people sell their inheritance for living their life their way no difference.

 

[Der Alte]

Very well my friend …

I laughed out loud at this. I get this a lot of this whenever I will not accept whatever unscriptural interpretation is being promoted and I use scripture to rebut such interpretations. In closing. What does Jesus say, will Jesus save all mankind no matter what?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

My goodness brother … very telling you found my passing comment, “Very well my friend …” so amusing; and it appears, rather foundational to bolstering your ego. I love you brother, but when a discussion reaches a certain point, as ours has on this subject matter, there is nothing more to say. If my acknowledgment of this gives you some kind of “personal gratification“ … you’ve earned it. Enjoy!

P.S. Since I never received a reply from you on the passage I sent you via email twice, concerning John 3:16, I assume you never received it? Although our discussion has indeed run its course, I just wanted you to have it as I previously stated I would send it to you. Here it is for your consideration. Blessings …

This is from a writing of A.P Adams:

Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost.

It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed.

Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

 

[Jeff Saunders]

My goodness brother … very telling you found my passing comment, “Very well my friend …” so amusing; and it appears, rather foundational to bolstering your ego. I love you brother, but when a discussion reaches a certain point, as ours has on this subject matter, there is nothing more to say. If my acknowledgment of this gives you some kind of “personal gratification“ … you’ve earned it. Enjoy!

P.S. Since I never received a reply from you on the passage I sent you via email twice, concerning John 3:16, I assume you never received it? Although our discussion has indeed run its course, I just wanted you to have it as I previously stated I would send it to you. Here it is for your consideration. Blessings …

This is from a writing of A.P Adams:

Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost.

It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed.

Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

That was great, Jesus wins 100% of what he paid for . Thanks for that.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Those who follow Jesus while in the mortal body gain an inheritance those who are judged to have not followed Jesus lose their inheritance. Just like the example of Jacob and Esau, Esau sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup . Many people sell their inheritance for living their life their way no difference.

I'd suggest there are legitimate scriptural counters to your view, example of 1 John 4:7 given prior. We also know God is the Father of all people, Matt. 23:9

What your suppositions are void of seeing is from seeing only people in the equations.

We all bear the adversary in our own flesh, mind and heart. Lay the bad stuff of scripture unto WHOM it belongs, and be glad for those Words spoken to you and us all

Jesus will reject the devil's, the spirit of disobedience in EVERYONE

 

[Der Alte]

That was great, Jesus wins 100% of what he paid for . Thanks for that.

How does Matthew 7:21-23 fit into your belief?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [day of judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

How does Matthew 7:21-23 fit into your belief?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [day of judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

I have told you many times over that those scriptures are for this age and are true but when this age ends and a new age begins things are different, that is when “ every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If you don’t understand the ages , as you seem to not get, then you will still not understand.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I'd suggest there are legitimate scriptural counters to your view, example of 1 John 4:7 given prior. We also know God is the Father of all people, Matt. 23:9

What your suppositions are void of seeing is from seeing only people in the equations.

We all bear the adversary in our own flesh, mind and heart. Lay the bad stuff of scripture unto WHOM it belongs, and be glad for those Words spoken to you and us all

Jesus will reject the devil's, the spirit of disobedience in EVERYONE

I really don’t understand your thinking, I don’t understand what point you are trying to make.

 

[Der Alte]

I have told you many times over that those scriptures are for this age and are true but when this age ends and a new age begins things are different, that is when “ every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If you don’t understand the ages , as you seem to not get, then you will still not understand.

What you have told me has never been backed up with scripture which clearly says anything about different ages. The word age occurs 10 times in the N.T. and never refers to succeeding ages. And FYI the Eastern Greek Orthodox church N.T. Their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church.

EOB Joh 3:15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16. Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.​

18 Anyone who believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because such a person has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God.​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

ETA. the only 3 vss. which mention "ages' plural in the NT

Eph_2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.​

Eph_3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.​

​

​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What you have told me has never been backed up with scripture which clearly says anything about different ages. The word age occurs 10 times in the N.T. and never refers to succeeding ages. And FYI the Eastern Greek Orthodox church N.T. Their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church.

EOB Joh 3:15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16. Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.​

18 Anyone who believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because such a person has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God.​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

At least you’re predictable, but like I said until you understand the ages you will not understand.

 

[Der Alte]

At least you’re predictable, but like I said until you understand the ages you will not understand.

Okay. You have repeated that at least twice. NOW please back it up with scripture. tick tock.
ETA, Link to my post above quoting the only 3 verses in the N.T. which mentions plural, ages. None of them relate to this discussion.

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

Can you substantiate in any credible way your oft repeated accusation "the 'scholars' of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true." And I don't mean "Scholar 'X' said so." When I earned my Master of Divinity...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Okay. You have repeated that at least twice. NOW please back it up with scripture. tick tock.
ETA, Link to my post above quoting the only 3 verses in the N.T. which mentions plural, ages. None of them relate to this discussion.

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

Can you substantiate in any credible way your oft repeated accusation "the 'scholars' of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true." And I don't mean "Scholar 'X' said so." When I earned my Master of Divinity...

www.christianforums.com

Here a verses that talk about ages plural or the age to come / Heb1:2 - Heb 9:26- Heb 11:3- Jude 1:25- these all talk about the ages plural/ Heb 6:5- Matt 12:32- Mark 10:30- Luke 18:30-Eph 1:21 - Eph 2:7 these talk about the age to come . There are many other verses that talk about the age or ages but you have a different view on the transition of certain Greek words that I do so I did not include them.

 

[Der Alte]

Here a verses that talk about ages plural or the age to come / Heb1:2 - Heb 9:26- Heb 11:3- Jude 1:25- these all talk about the ages plural/ Heb 6:5- Matt 12:32- Mark 10:30- Luke 18:30-Eph 1:21 - Eph 2:7 these talk about the age to come . There are many other verses that talk about the age or ages but you have a different view on the transition of certain Greek words that I do so I did not include them.

Now I see, you chose a version which seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions, the NKJV. Yes, I do seem to have an alien understanding of the Greek words. I understand them as they are defined in the latest Greek lexicons which OBTW I happen to have, both hard back and digital. And I also favor the Eastern Greek Orthodox N.T. FYI their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church. But I am sure there is a "scholar" somewhere that disagrees with me. But a quick review of the linked vss. I didn't see anything about salvation in a coming age or ages.
The last book, the last chapter.

Revelation 22:3​

(3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

Revelation 22:5​

(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.​

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Revelation 22:19​

(19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I really don’t understand your thinking, I don’t understand what point you are trying to make.

You believe all people are saved. So do I.

I pointed to 1 John 4:7 which says everyone who loves knows God and is born of God

Common sense tells me everyone experiences love, however slight it may be. Therefore there is no 4 step accept Jesus selling pitch for Jesus necessary

I also pointed out that Jesus said God is The Father of all people so no sales pitch for Jesus required. It's just a fact of scripture

I also believe there is a real eternal forever and ever eternal hell/LoF for the devil and his messengers

So even though our end sight at least for people is close to the same, it shows that within Christian universalism there are vastly different views

I specifically refute Satanic salvation, the temporary torture of people, temporary hell for people and devils and the need for Jesus selling that your sect of universalism tries to sell. I believe all your positions arean affront to fundamental Christianity and truthful genuine universalism.