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The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

Der Alte

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You have your options I have mine. I do acknowledge that the way you read scripture is different than mine , but like I have said before , the Holy Spirt is one one to convict not me. When we get to be with God face to face we will all see the things we got correct and the things we did not.
And I am certain that I have a lot more right than those who are UR. As I have shown with the vss. I have repeatedly posted. see e.g.
Jeremiah 13:10-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25: 44-46
 
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Jeff Saunders

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No, that is why the Great Commission is important. The more seeds that are sown the more people that will be saved. Not everyone goes to the NHNE no matter how much you try and twist the text.
The reason for the great commission is to get as many into the kingdom as possible, but it has nothing to do with salvation, remember Jesus conquered sin and death on the cross. It’s like Matt 7 the narrow path that leads to life or the broad path that leads to death is not about salvation, Jesus already took care of that . God is a loving Father and he knows we have to spend time in a mortal body on this earth, so the more people who move from death to life now in the mortal the better our time down here will be. Think out this most of the world’s problems are because people don’t live the Christ centered life we have wars, killing, stealing, mugging, rape and a whole host of other things that make life difficult or some downright horrible. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our moral time will be and God as a loving Father has given humanity a way to make our time better and if you understand the Love of the Trinity you would understand the more the better, it’s infinite so it doesn’t get watered down or lessened by more people coming in it gets stronger. Once you move from religion, that’s so worrying about who is in and who is out and how can we make a system to keep people out of eternal “hell” and you experience relationship with the the Trinity you will be able to understand this truth from God.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or free-spirited. Now, if anyone hears that word, they think of homosexual orientation. The word "gay" is simply not used in conversation as it was 100 years ago and is completely understood differently.

It's possible that your "Greek scholars" are late comers who were trained to believe that the word "aionios" means "eternal" when the historic evidence for it points otherwise.

What do I mean by historic evidence? I mean that the teaching of Apokatastasis was primarily found in the Greek-speaking East, whereas the Latin West developed the idea of God creating an eternal torment chamber for sinners. Now if you have any sort of investigative mind, you have to ask yourself how it was possible that those Greek-speaking fathers of the Church could believe in something that violates Scripture if "aionios" really means "eternal." There is other evidence from how Plato and other Greek-speaking ancients used the word. So unless you are willing to ascribe utter dishonesty to men like St. Isaac of Syria, as well as the many others who spoke the language and understood it as their native tongue, then you must believe that your "scholars" were trained wrong because they didn't go deep enough into history nor examine all the evidence.

And as for the refutation of the blog spot, what evidence would you accept? I don't think you will accept any evidence that contradicts your cherished ideal that God is just waiting to get His hands on sinners and torment them. You, and many other hellists, strike me as having the same feeling as Tertullian and Aquinas had, which is that they looked forward to leaning over the parapets of heaven to watch sinners get what is due them and enjoy the spectacle.

Anyone with half a heart should find the idea of eternal punishment to be both dreadful and sad, not to mention a smear on the very character of the God who enfleshed Himself to suffer a horrendous death that we might be freed from death.
So many of the “scholars “ of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true. They exemplify 2Cor 10:12 but they- in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves to themselves-gain no insight. This has been happening for over 1500 years, but with the internet now the common man can go back and read what the early church fathers wrote and we see the mistakes made.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I think Paul made it very clear that those who practice sin will not inherit eternal life. See Romans 1.
Does not scripture say that when we put our faith in the faith of Jesus we go from death to life? Paul is correct that in this age if you practice sin you will not inherit life you remain in death till you repent and bend the knee and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord. Sadly this takes place for most in the next age not this one.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Considering the amount of dancing universalists have to do to overcome not only the Scriptures but also church anathema and council rulings that are affirmed every year within the Orthodox church, I see no reason in trying to argue with someone who has convinced themselves that what should be obvious is not true. So no, I won't be discussing the Scripture with you.
Most people who follow the reconciliation of the cosmos, which is clear in scripture, get a lot of their understanding of scripture from the very people who the Orthodox Church have made into saints. Have you ever asked yourself why would the Orthodox Church make people into to saints, and that is a big deal to them, if they taught heretical views?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Hello

When taking the Bible as a whole, I certainly don't believe anyone will spend an eternity burning forever. But Christ I believe makes it pretty clear that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28, about not fearing the one that can kill our flesh body but rather fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in hell. I believe that's eternal destruction. But our Father is long suffering because he's not willing anyone should perish but would rather come to repentance. Repentance is the key. And UR is taking that out of the equation because if it were true the Lord would not have to be long suffering if everyone were to be saved in the long run. It wouldn't make sense and it doesn't coincide with his teachings.
It’s been about 6000 years for man beyond the earth and we have at least 1000. + to go till all will be set right, that’s a long time in my book . So yes the Lord is long suffering and it’s still is not done.
 
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Der Alte

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Most people who follow the reconciliation of the cosmos, which is clear in scripture, get a lot of their understanding of scripture from the very people who the Orthodox Church have made into saints. Have you ever asked yourself why would the Orthodox Church make people into to saints, and that is a big deal to them, if they taught heretical views?
"why would the Orthodox Church make people into to saints, and that is a big deal to them, if they taught heretical views?" Why don't you name some of these "saints" and identify which "orthodox church" made them saints.
 
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Der Alte

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Does not scripture say that when we put our faith in the faith of Jesus we go from death to life? Paul is correct that in this age if you practice sin you will not inherit life you remain in death till you repent and bend the knee and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord.
Please show the specific scripture which clearly states that sinful mankind will be given a second chance to "bend the knee and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord?"
Sadly this takes place for most in the next age not this one.
Please show the specific scripture which clearly, specifically say that salvation "takes place for most in the next age not this one." I looked up every verse in the New Testament which mentions "age" it occurs ten times none of those verses mention post death salvation. My standard scriptures which refute this view.

Jeremiah 13:11-14 [God, Himself speaking]​
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23 [Jesus, Himself speaking]​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​
(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by.
Matthew 25:41-46​
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​
(42) For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:​
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.​
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?​
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
Romans 1:24​
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:​
Romans 1:26​
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​
Romans 1:28​
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​
 
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RileyG

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Does not scripture say that when we put our faith in the faith of Jesus we go from death to life? Paul is correct that in this age if you practice sin you will not inherit life you remain in death till you repent and bend the knee and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord. Sadly this takes place for most in the next age not this one.
What do you mean?
 
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Der Alte

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So many of the “scholars “ of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true. They exemplify 2Cor 10:12 but they- in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves to themselves-gain no insight. This has been happening for over 1500 years, but with the internet now the common man can go back and read what the early church fathers wrote and we see the mistakes made.
I'm sorry this is totally false. I have a graduate degree from the flag ship seminary of my denomination and the few years I was there I never heard anything about Latin, nothing. I was required to learn both Hebrew and Greek. My second class session in Greek '81ish my class mates were astounded when I read from the Greek New Testament almost flawlessly. I started learning to speak Greek in Germany about 2 decades before.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I'm sorry this is totally false. I have a graduate degree from the flag ship seminary of my denomination and the few years I was there I never heard anything about Latin, nothing. I was required to learn both Hebrew and Greek. My second class session in Greek '81ish my class mates were astounded when I read from the Greek New Testament almost flawlessly. I started learning to speak Greek in Germany about 2 decades before.
The western church traces its roots of doctrine from Augustine who did not know Greek and used a bad Latin translation. That’s history whether you like it or not.
 
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Der Alte

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The western church traces its roots of doctrine from Augustine who did not know Greek and used a bad Latin translation. That’s history whether you like it or not.
Empty words without credible verifiable substantiation. Is that what some so-called scholar told you?
Tick tock, tick tock.<= that is a clock ticking
Please select any one or more of my posts and show me anything I have posted is not scriptural and which can be traced back to Augustine. The clock is still ticking.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Who are some of these "many Greek scholars"? I have shown more than once that aionios is defined as "eternal"
Romans 1:20​
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​
Romans 16:26​
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” As you have correctly stated Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
Other vss. for you to ignore where Paul defines "aionios" as "eternal. everlasting etc. 'Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, 1 Tim 1:17, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21.
Perhaps you can answer a couple questions for me my brother? You have an issue with Aionios being translated with more than one word, as though that is some grammatical no-no? Isn’t the idea to get the true meaning behind the Greek word translated accurately? Yet you seem to have no issue with Paul using two different Greek words for eternal? A bit odd don’t you think? I mean, eternal is pretty straight forward and only belongs to God. Correct? No beginning and no end. Aidios sums that up pretty well with no need for further clarification.

Certainly Paul, an extremely educated man under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, had something specific in mind while using Aionios instead of Aidios! You your self agreed that Aidios means eternal and nothing but eternal. I can’t imagine Paul, being an intellectually critically minded man would just use Aionios to impress everyone by using his thesaurus to show off his extensive vocabulary?

1). Please elaborate on why you think Paul would use two Greek words to say the same thing? Paul must be stating something unique to the word Aionios/Aion that he is presenting to us. What on earth does Paul have in mind? Here is the passage in Romans you quoted. I’m including verse 25-27 for context and if I remember correctly you are favorably minded towards the scholarship of the NIV translators?

”Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for (long ages past,) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the (eternal God), so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— to the only wise God be glory (forever) through Jesus Christ! Amen.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬-‭27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

2). Why did these scholars translate Aionios differently in verse 25 than verse 26? I know you disapprove of the way some translations say “… which was kept secret since the (world began),” Correct? Because you said before a greek word cannot have two different meanings. So why not just insert “eternal?” Like this … “which was kept secret since the eternal began.” Well, maybe that is a problem since … well, there is no beginning to eternal is there?
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

3). Der Alte, what on earth is lost in translation by rendering Aionios as: of the ages, age-during, pertaining to the ages, etc …? Is our Eternal God not the God of His ages? He orchestrates time and He rules the ages with all that transpires within those ages. He is not robbed of glory. In fact, your scripture, if you just let it speak for itself, says He should receive glory in the ages … through Jesus Christ

Here is a good and faithful rendering of the passages above, in Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, without having to force upon the Scriptures something that is not intended:
25 Now, unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad–message––even the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age–past times kept silent, 26 But now made manifest, and through means of prophetic scriptures, according to the command of the age–abiding God, for obedience of faith unto all the nations made known, 27 Unto a God, wise alone, through Jesus Christ, [unto whom] be the glory, unto the ages. Amen.

Romans chapter 1 God IS eternal (Aidios)! God and only God IS eternal (Aidios)! Romans chapter 16 Our Eternal God is the God of His ages (Aionios) which He purposed in Himself and planned for His glory; and is now bringing to pass, as He has in the past and will do in the future.

blessings,
 
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Der Alte

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Perhaps you can answer a couple questions for me my brother? You have an issue with Aionios being translated with more than one word, as though that is some grammatical no-no? Isn’t the idea to get the true meaning behind the Greek word translated accurately? Yet you seem to have no issue with Paul using two different Greek words for eternal? A bit odd don’t you think? I mean, eternal is pretty straight forward and only belongs to God. Correct? No beginning and no end. Aidios sums that up pretty well with no need for further clarification.
No objections here. Doesn't English have more than one word which means eternal? Such as forever, endless, everlasting to name a few. I think I have shown with my study the correct meaning of aionios., which is eternal, everlasting etc. My objection relates to "aionios" being translated as "of the age", "pertaining to the age" Aionios is an adjective it should not take 2,3 or 4 words to translate into English. And my study has never been refuted.
Certainly Paul, an extremely educated man under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, had something specific in mind while using Aionios instead of Aidios! You your self agreed that Aidios means eternal and nothing but eternal. I can’t imagine Paul, being an intellectually critically minded man would just use Aionios to impress everyone by using his thesaurus to show off his extensive vocabulary?
IIRC I said the same writer Paul in the same writing used aionios synonymous with aiodios. As I said above even in English we have more than one word for forever, endless, eternal, everlasting etc.
Romans 16:26-27​
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aidios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
(27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. [aionios] Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.​

1). Please elaborate on why you think Paul would use two Greek words to say the same thing? Paul must be stating something unique to the word Aionios/Aion that he is presenting to us. What on earth does Paul have in mind? Here is the passage in Romans you quoted. I’m including verse 25-27 for context and if I remember correctly you are favorably minded towards the scholarship of the NIV translators?
See my response immediately above.
”Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for (long ages past,) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the (eternal God), so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— to the only wise God be glory (forever) through Jesus Christ! Amen.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬-‭27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

2). Why did these scholars translate Aionios differently in verse 25 than verse 26? I know you disapprove of the way some translations say “… which was kept secret since the (world began),” Correct? Because you said before a greek word cannot have two different meanings. So why not just insert “eternal?” Like this … “which was kept secret since the eternal began.” Well, maybe that is a problem since … well, there is no beginning to eternal is there?
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
I don't have the time or patience to switch back and forth between your post and a Bible trying to figure out which Greek word occurs where. I did not say a word cannot have two meanings.
3). Der Alte, what on earth is lost in translation by rendering Aionios as: of the ages, age-during, pertaining to the ages, etc …? Is our Eternal God not the God of His ages? He orchestrates time and He rules the ages with all that transpires within those ages. He is not robbed of glory. In fact, your scripture, if you just let it speak for itself, says He should receive glory in the ages … through Jesus Christ
Here is a good and faithful rendering of the passages above, in Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, without having to force upon the Scriptures something that is not intended:
Age is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective. There should be at least one English adjective which translates "aionios." I do not know of any other Greek adjective that takes 2 to 4 words to translate it into English.
25 Now, unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad–message––even the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age–past times kept silent, 26 But now made manifest, and through means of prophetic scriptures, according to the command of the age–abiding God, for obedience of faith unto all the nations made known, 27 Unto a God, wise alone, through Jesus Christ, [unto whom] be the glory, unto the ages. Amen.

Romans chapter 1 God IS eternal (Aidios)! God and only God IS eternal (Aidios)! Romans chapter 16 Our Eternal God is the God of His ages (Aionios) which He purposed in Himself and planned for His glory; and is now bringing to pass, as He has in the past and will do in the future.

blessings,
I prefer the EOB Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
20 Now, to him who is able to accomplish much more than all we can ask or think according to the power that works in us, 21 to him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, now and forerever and unto ages of ages. [γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων] Amen.​
And FYI one or two occurrences does NOT refute my posts.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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God is a loving Father and he knows we have to spend time in a mortal body on this earth, so the more people who move from death to life now in the mortal the better our time down here will be. Think out this most of the world’s problems are because people don’t live the Christ centered life we have wars, killing, stealing, mugging, rape and a whole host of other things that make life difficult or some downright horrible.
You may just as well promote ethics. Same intention.

Why drag Jesus into the picture?

IF everyone on earth was a Christian, we ALL are still guaranteed various trials, tribulations and harsh chastisements
 
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Jeff Saunders

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You may just as well promote ethics. Same intention.

Why drag Jesus into the picture?

IF everyone on earth was a Christian, we ALL are still guaranteed various trials, tribulations and harsh chastisements
Why drag Jesus into the picture? By asking this you are showing that you have not realized that Jesus is everything. He created this world and sustains this world and loves his creation and it it only because of Jesus that we live and move and have our being. It’s all about Jesus and what he did and what he is doing and what he will do, Jesus is the savior of the world so how can it not be about Jesus? For your other objection, I never said everyone was a Christian in this life . But we are all Gods children and he loves his creation and God does not do abandonment, Jesus came down into our delusional thinking and sacrificed himself for all humanity and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for God will not be robbed. Few find this now , most find it in the next age, God is long suffering and he has all the time he needs till every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. So why drag Jesus in because we have nothing without him.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Perhaps you can answer a couple questions for me my brother? You have an issue with Aionios being translated with more than one word, as though that is some grammatical no-no? Isn’t the idea to get the true meaning behind the Greek word translated accurately? Yet you seem to have no issue with Paul using two different Greek words for eternal? A bit odd don’t you think? I mean, eternal is pretty straight forward and only belongs to God. Correct? No beginning and no end. Aidios sums that up pretty well with no need for further clarification.
No objections here. Doesn't English have more than one word which means eternal? Such as forever, endless, everlasting to name a few. I think I have shown with my study the correct meaning of aionios., which is eternal, everlasting etc. My objection relates to "aionios" being translated as "of the age", "pertaining to the age"

Your objection: Aionios is an adjective it should not take 2,3 or 4 words to translate into English. And my study has never been refuted.

It appears this is a quite common practice, especially when doing translation work.

Yes, an adjective can often be translated with more than one word, especially when translating between languages with different grammatical structures; this is commonly done by using a phrase or a combination of words to convey the same meaning as a single adjective in the original language, often referred to as a "compound adjective" where multiple words are used together to describe something.

Example:
  • English: "joyful"
  • Translation (Spanish): " lleno de alegría" (meaning "full of joy")

Key points about translating adjectives with multiple words:
  • Compound adjectives:
    Many languages use compound adjectives where multiple words are joined together with a hyphen to form a single descriptive term.

  • Phrases:
    Sometimes, an entire phrase is needed to accurately convey the meaning of a single adjective depending on the context and language nuances.


  • Cultural considerations:
    Translations may require adapting to cultural differences in how adjectives are expressed.


Certainly Paul, an extremely educated man under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, had something specific in mind while using Aionios instead of Aidios! You your self agreed that Aidios means eternal and nothing but eternal. I can’t imagine Paul, being an intellectually critically minded man would just use Aionios to impress everyone by using his thesaurus to show off his extensive vocabulary?
IIRC I said the same writer Paul in the same writing used aionios synonymous with aiodios. As I said above even in English we have more than one word for forever, endless, eternal, everlasting etc.
Romans 16:26-27
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aidios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. [aionios] Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.
1). Please elaborate on why you think Paul would use two Greek words to say the same thing? Paul must be stating something unique to the word Aionios/Aion that he is presenting to us. What on earth does Paul have in mind? Here is the passage in Romans you quoted. I’m including verse 25-27 for context and if I remember correctly you are favorably minded towards the scholarship of the NIV translators?
See my response immediately above.

Reply: You did not answer the question. Why did Paul, under divine guidance, NOT use Aidios but rather Aionios? Why? What is the Lord telling us through Paul’s choice of words? Again, certainly Paul is not just showing off his vocabulary!
”Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for (long ages past,) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the (eternal God), so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— to the only wise God be glory (forever) through Jesus Christ! Amen.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬-‭27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now reveal | New International Version (NIV)

Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now reveal
bible.com
2). Why did these scholars translate Aionios differently in verse 25 than verse 26? I know you disapprove of the way some translations say “… which was kept secret since the (world began),” Correct? Because you said before a greek word cannot have two different meanings. So why not just insert “eternal?” Like this … “which was kept secret since the eternal began.”Well, maybe that is a problem since … well, there is no beginning to eternal is there?
‭‭Romans‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bibl

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
bible.com
Click to expand...
I don't have the time or patience to switch back and forth between your post and a Bible trying to figure out which Greek word occurs where. I did not say a word cannot have two meanings.

Reply: You maintain that the noun Aion means age and the adjective Aionios means eternal. I don’t get it … how can the adjective, which contains the noun it modifies, be greater than that noun?
No, an adjective cannot be "greater than" the noun it modifies because an adjective simply describes a quality of the noun, and does not inherently represent a quantity that can be compared in a greater or lesser sense to the noun itself; it's a descriptive word that adds details to the noun, not something that can be ranked above it.

Example:
  • "A huge house" - "Huge" describes the size of the house, but it doesn't mean the adjective "huge" is somehow bigger than the noun "house."

Key points to remember:
  • Adjectives modify nouns by describing their characteristics.

  • While you can use comparative and superlative forms of adjectives to indicate degrees of a quality, this doesn't mean the adjective itself is "greater than" the noun.
3). Der Alte, what on earth is lost in translation by rendering Aionios as: of the ages, age-during, pertaining to the ages, etc …? Is our Eternal God not the God of His ages? He orchestrates time and He rules the ages with all that transpires within those ages. He is not robbed of glory. In fact, your scripture, if you just let it speak for itself, says He should receive glory in the ages … through Jesus Christ
Here is a good and faithful rendering of the passages above, in Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, without having to force upon the Scriptures something that is not intended:
Age is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective. There should be at least one English adjective which translates "aionios." I do not know of any other Greek adjective that takes 2 to 4 words to translate it into English.

In case you didn’t see it the first time …
Yes, an adjective can often be translated with more than one word, especially when translating between languages with different grammatical structures; this is commonly done by using a phrase or a combination of words to convey the same meaning as a single adjective in the original language, often referred to as a "compound adjective" where multiple words are used together to describe something.

Example:
  • English: "joyful"
  • Translation (Spanish): " lleno de alegría" (meaning "full of joy")

Key points about translating adjectives with multiple words:
  • Compound adjectives:
    Many languages use compound adjectives where multiple words are joined together with a hyphen to form a single descriptive term.

  • Phrases:
    Sometimes, an entire phrase is needed to accurately convey the meaning of a single adjective depending on the context and language nuances.


  • Cultural considerations:
    Translations may require adapting to cultural differences in how adjectives are expressed.

25 Now, unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad–message––even the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age–past times kept silent, 26 But now made manifest, and through means of prophetic scriptures, according to the command of the age–abiding God, for obedience of faith unto all the nations made known, 27 Unto a God, wise alone, through Jesus Christ, [unto whom] be the glory, unto the ages. Amen.

Romans chapter 1 God IS eternal (Aidios)! God and only God IS eternal (Aidios)! Romans chapter 16 Our Eternal God is the God of His ages (Aionios) which He purposed in Himself and planned for His glory; and is now bringing to pass, as He has in the past and will do in the future.

blessings,
Click to expand...
I prefer the EOB Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
20 Now, to him who is able to accomplish much more than all we can ask or think according to the power that works in us, 21 to him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, now and forerever and unto ages of ages. [γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων] Amen.
And FYI one or two occurrences does NOT refute my posts.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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So many of the “scholars “ of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true. They exemplify 2Cor 10:12 but they- in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves to themselves-gain no insight. This has been happening for over 1500 years, but with the internet now the common man can go back and read what the early church fathers wrote and we see the mistakes made.
Can you substantiate in any credible way your oft repeated accusation "the 'scholars' of today are trained by the Latin translation of scripture that they fail to understand what the Greek speakers knew to be true." And I don't mean "Scholar 'X' said so." When I earned my Master of Divinity degree about 4 decades ago I was required to take 2 semesters of Greek and 1 semester of Hebrew and zero semesters of Latin. Since all professors were required to know Greek and Hebrew If there was some discrepancy with translation of scripture, they would have known it. So it must be false. If you cannot substantiate your accusation with credible, verifiable evidence I suggest you refrain from repeating the accusation. And OBTW there is a big difference between "translation of scripture" and "what the early church fathers wrote."
 
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Der Alte

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Your objection: Aionios is an adjective it should not take 2,3 or 4 words to translate into English. And my study has never been refuted.
It appears this is a quite common practice, especially when doing translation work.
Yes, an adjective can often be translated with more than one word, especially when translating between languages with different grammatical structures; this is commonly done by using a phrase or a combination of words to convey the same meaning as a single adjective in the original language, often referred to as a "compound adjective" where multiple words are used together to describe something.
Example:
  • English: "joyful"
  • Translation (Spanish): " lleno de alegría" (meaning "full of joy")
One example from Spanish shows nothing about Greek to English.
Key points about translating adjectives with multiple words:
  • Compound adjectives:
    Many languages use compound adjectives where multiple words are joined together with a hyphen to form a single descriptive term.

  • Phrases:
    Sometimes, an entire phrase is needed to accurately convey the meaning of a single adjective depending on the context and language nuances.

  • Cultural considerations:
    Translations may require adapting to cultural differences in how adjectives are expressed.
Nothing here specifically addresses Greek to English.
Reply: You did not answer the question. Why did Paul, under divine guidance, NOT use Aidios but rather Aionios? Why? What is the Lord telling us through Paul’s choice of words? Again, certainly Paul is not just showing off his vocabulary!
I have answered it twice. The same writer, Paul in the same writing, book of Romans, used aionios synonymous with aidios. Here are the vss. again since you have difficulty understanding.
Romans 1:20​
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​
Romans 2:7​
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [aionios] eternal life:​
Rom 1:20 God's power and Godhead are eternal [aidios] Rom 2:7 immortality, eternal [aionios] life. Immortality defines aionios as eternal.
Reply: You maintain that the noun Aion means age and the adjective Aionios means eternal. I don’t get it … how can the adjective, which contains the noun it modifies, be greater than that noun?
No, an adjective cannot be "greater than" the noun it modifies because an adjective simply describes a quality of the noun, and does not inherently represent a quantity that can be compared in a greater or lesser sense to the noun itself; it's a descriptive word that adds details to the noun, not something that can be ranked above it.
I have never said "the noun Aion means age" "Aion mean eternity.[noun] Show me something written by a scholar about this supposed "rule."
Example:
  • "A huge house" - "Huge" describes the size of the house, but it doesn't mean the adjective "huge" is somehow bigger than the noun "house."
Key points to remember:
  • Adjectives modify nouns by describing their characteristics.

  • While you can use comparative and superlative forms of adjectives to indicate degrees of a quality, this doesn't mean the adjective itself is "greater than" the noun.
Here is a good and faithful rendering of the passages above, in Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, without having to force upon the Scriptures something that is not intended:
Age is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective. There should be at least one English adjective which translates "aionios." I do not know of any other Greek adjective that takes 2 to 4 words to translate it into English.

In case you didn’t see it the first time …
Yes, an adjective can often be translated with more than one word, especially when translating between languages with different grammatical structures; this is commonly done by using a phrase or a combination of words to convey the same meaning as a single adjective in the original language, often referred to as a "compound adjective" where multiple words are used together to describe something.

Example:
  • English: "joyful"
  • Translation (Spanish): " lleno de alegría" (meaning "full of joy")
One example from Spanish is not relevant! See if you can find one other Greek adjective that requires 2, 3, 4 words to translate into English. Nothing you have said refutes anything I said in my study of all occurrences of aionios.
Key points about translating adjectives with multiple words:
  • Compound adjectives:
    Many languages use compound adjectives where multiple words are joined together with a hyphen to form a single descriptive term.

  • Phrases:
    Sometimes, an entire phrase is needed to accurately convey the meaning of a single adjective depending on the context and language nuances.

  • Cultural considerations:
    Translations may require adapting to cultural differences in how adjectives are expressed.
Nothing here that specifically refutes anything I said.
 
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Der Alte

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No objections here. Doesn't English have more than one word which means eternal? Such as forever, endless, everlasting to name a few. I think I have shown with my study the correct meaning of aionios., which is eternal, everlasting etc. My objection relates to "aionios" being translated as "of the age", "pertaining to the age" Aionios is an adjective it should not take 2,3 or 4 words to translate into English. And my study has never been refuted.

IIRC I said the same writer Paul in the same writing used aionios synonymous with aiodios. As I said above even in English we have more than one word for forever, endless, eternal, everlasting etc.
Romans 16:26-27​
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aidios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
(27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. [aionios] Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.​

See my response immediately above.

I don't have the time or patience to switch back and forth between your post and a Bible trying to figure out which Greek word occurs where. I did not say a word cannot have two meanings.

Here is a good and faithful rendering of the passages above, in Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, without having to force upon the Scriptures something that is not intended:
Age is a noun and "aionios" is an adjective. There should be at least one English adjective which translates "aionios." I do not know of any other Greek adjective that takes 2 to 4 words to translate it into English.

I prefer the EOB Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible
20 Now, to him who is able to accomplish much more than all we can ask or think according to the power that works in us, 21 to him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, now and forerever and unto ages of ages. [γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων] Amen.​
And FYI one or two occurrences does NOT refute my posts.
Replying to my own post, above, to add some clarifying information. I have mentioned my personal study of aionios a number of times here is a link to two back to back posts where I have shown where the Greek word "aionios" is defined in scripture.

And OBTW said study has never been credibly addressed and certainly not refuted.,
 
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