The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

Ok you have heard it many times but why not one more time maybe this you will understand.John 14:6 “ I am ( that’s Jesus) the way the truth and the life , no one comes to the Father except through me( that’s Jesus just in case you didn’t catch it) This seems to say that no one ,that’s people, can come to the Father but through Jesus. So either Jesus was confused and forgot that people could go to God in a different way , or he was telling the truth, the only way to get to the Father is through Jesus. It’s very clear, unless you believe that there are multiple ways to get to the Father and Jesus was lying. There are only two choices, I do not see why you can’t or won’t understand that.

Oh, I understand it perfectly., Evidently you don't. "John 14:6 “ I am ( that’s Jesus) the way the truth and the life , no one comes [present tense] to the Father except through me." Now show me the verse where this applies to the previous generations of deceased Jews? How do the long dead "come to Jesus?"

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Please show me scripture which specifically states that deceased Jews will be made alive and be required to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and be baptized.

Show me in scripture that the Trinity is true , no verses talk about the Trinity, we get it by reading and coming to a conclusion. That’s all I am doing. You do it also unless you don’t believe in the Trinity.

 

[Der Alte]

Show me in scripture that the Trinity is true , no verses talk about the Trinity, we get it by reading and coming to a conclusion. That’s all I am doing. You do it also unless you don’t believe in the Trinity.

Who said anything about the Trinity?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Oh, I understand it perfectly., Evidently you don't. "John 14:6 “ I am ( that’s Jesus) the way the truth and the life , no one comes [present tense] to the Father except through me." Now show me the verse where this applies to the previous generations of deceased Jews? How do the long dead "come to Jesus?"

The same way you and I do - Phil 2:10-11 “ Every knee will bow of those in heaven and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord “ This verse seems to be including the dead unless you think those in heaven and under the earth are still in the mortal body. You may have to get a bigger box that you put God in.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Who said anything about the Trinity?

Are you just trying to mess with me ? You know exactly what I am saying! You wanted scriptures that say the Jews will accept Jesus after death but just like there is no verses that say Trinity you have to come to that conclusion using knowledge of multiple scriptures put together, is the same thing for the idea that the Jews and those before them must of accepted Jesus after death. You might not agree but I can’t believe that someone with your education can’t figure this out.

 

[Der Alte]

The same way you and I do - Phil 2:10-11 “ Every knee will bow of those in heaven and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord “ This verse seems to be including the dead unless you think those in heaven and under the earth are still in the mortal body. You may have to get a bigger box that you put God in.

"This verse seems to be including the dead..." But no specific vs. which states that the long deceased Jews will come to Jesus, be baptized etc.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"This verse seems to be including the dead..." But no specific vs. which states that the long deceased Jews will come to Jesus, be baptized etc.

So you don’t believe that the Jews were included in the all people will bow and confess? And who said anything about baptism?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

those who did not accept Jesus while in the mortal body rejected his forgiveness must give account how that is going to happen I don’t know. One of the best ideas I have heard is that those people must experience themselves all that they have done to harm others and they will have to go through that themselves and this will show them what they have done and that will turn them to repentance.

Do you really think the evil within any of us can be tortured into submission and not be what it is?

I don't think the evil in anyone has ever cooperated with God, born again or not.

Nor do I believe giving an account of what transpired in us necessitates any kind of torture, post death

We all die a physical death because of sin.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you really think the evil within any of us can be tortured into submission and not be what it is?

I don't think the evil in anyone has ever cooperated with God, born again or not.

Nor do I believe giving an account of what transpired in us necessitates any kind of torture, post death

We all die a physical death because of sin.

No I don’t believe that you can torture sin out of people that was the Catholic Church stuff , I use it only as a way of speech like those who believe in ECT . But I also do believe Jeremiah 9:7 “ Therefore the Lord who rules over all says, I will no purify them in the fires of affection and test them. The wickedness of my dear people has left me no choice, what else can I do. Also Hosea 5:15 “Then I will return again to my lair until they have suffered their punishment. Then they will seek me; in their distress they will earnestly seek me. For me this does indicate some form of punishment but for correction, what that is we are not told.

 

[Der Alte]

Nice of you to chop off the rest of the chapter to prove your point
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
What part of "all" do you not understand? The way the verse is structured makes it quite clear that as through one man, Adam, death entered the world, so by one man, the same thing happens in reverse, that life is given to all.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
In your eschatology, the authority of death still reigns over a multitude of mankind, for to be in the eternal hell in which you fervently believe, is to be dead. Dead to God, separated from union with Him, which is the state of death.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
To be under His feet is to be in subjection to Him. Now, having a hell filled with souls cursing God, wishing Him dead, continuing in the sins of God-hatred for all eternity is hardly having "all things in subjection." I guess you have a different idea of subjection than I do.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Not if eternal torment (i.e. death) is real. God keeps souls in existence in a state of death, which is separation from Him. How do you claim that death is conquered if it is allowed to continue for all eternity?
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
And how is God "all in all" when He has not reconciled His enemies to Himself.

Does not begin to address my points on "in Adam" and "in Christ." Here it is again. All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind are actual, physical descendants of Adam BUT all mankind are not "in Christ" unless they voluntarily choose to be in this lifetime. There ain't no second chance after death. If you think so show me the vs/vss which state that.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.​

N.B. every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Only those who belong to Christ when He comes. When are all those who rejected Christ in this life saved?

And BTW - your tiresome tirade about "aionios" is boring. Greek scholars have made the point that "aionios" does not mean "eternal," yet you claim to be better and smarter than they are. And I guess that the Greek speaking saints of the Church, such as St. Greory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian didn't really understand their language correctly either. I mean, you might have a case if the Greeks had wholesale denied Apokatastasis, but since there were a number of Early Fathers who taught it, including four theological schools, I think perhaps you might be wrong.

Meaningless insults. I clearly showed using only the words of scripture that aionios does in fact mean eternal. Jesus Himself said so in 10 vss. Quoting so-called scholars means nothing without showing how they arrived at their decision. Please do not throw a list of names at me without quoting what they actually said about it.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says never He does not mean someday by and by.

 

[Der Alte]

So you don’t believe that the Jews were included in the all people will bow and confess? And who said anything about baptism?

The O.T. Jews were governed by the old covenant. Only those Jews who confess Jesus as Lord in this life.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

like those who believe in ECT

Yes, already noted it's a similar form of threat with a temp bent

For me this does indicate some form of punishment but for correction, what that is we are not told.

I see a more generous way for everyone:

1 John 4:7

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

 

[Der Alte]

So you don’t believe that the Jews were included in the all people will bow and confess? And who said anything about baptism?

Scripture requires baptism.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Scripture requires baptism.

So the thief on the cross with Jesus didn’t really go to paradise with Jesus, because I don’t think he got baptized before he died.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The workers of iniquity cannot hear Jesus' Voice and they do not want to listen to Jesus because their sin is rebellion and usually sexual like being gay.
They cling to the ungodly lie that they can go all their lives without repenting, without changing, and still by some devilish miracle be saved after dying. That lie keeps them blind.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice .

 

[Der Alte]

So the thief on the cross with Jesus didn’t really go to paradise with Jesus, because I don’t think he got baptized before he died.

One occurrence does not a rule make. I can just imagine Jesus saying "Sorry criminal I can't save you, you have to be baptized."

 

[Der Alte]

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear his voice .

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

One occurrence does not a rule make. I can just imagine Jesus saying "Sorry criminal I can't save you, you have to be baptized."

Did you not say scripture requires baptism? So either it does or it doesn’t, you don’t get to have it both ways.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Did you not say they could not hear his voice? Either they can or can’t and if they can’t how are they called out?

 

[Der Alte]

Did you not say scripture requires baptism? So either it does or it doesn’t, you don’t get to have it both ways.

Unlike the criminal on the cross resurrected sinners would not be nailed to a cross and they could be baptized.