The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

pdpayne2023

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Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Looking forward to it!

Peace,
Daniel
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Looking forward to it!

Peace,
Daniel
Welcome to CF!

Does the Gospel really teach salvation for both the faithful and the faithless? If you could point to just one verse where all will be raised into everlasting life, I would love to know it. But for now, I would need to stick to a direct quote by Jesus Christ of Nazareth addressing the issue.

Matthew 25
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Blessings
 
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pdpayne2023

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Welcome to CF!

Does the Gospel really teach salvation for both the faithful and the faithless? If you could point to just one verse where all will be raised into everlasting life, I would love to know it. But for now, I would need to stick to a direct quote by Jesus Christ of Nazareth addressing the issue.

Matthew 25
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Blessings
Thank you for the welcome and for your thoughtful reply. As to your first question, yes: Luke 3:5-6; Luke 16:16; John 12:32; Acts 3:19-21; Romans 5:15,18; Romans 11:32; I Corinthians 15:22,28; Ephesians 1:7-10; Colossians 1:19-20; I Timothy 4:10; I John 2:2. These are just a few.

I think it is much easier and faithful to the original languages to interpret seemingly exclusivist passages such as Matthew 25:44-46 in light of the plainly universalist passages rather than the other way around, and for one very simply reason. The words translated in Matthew as "everlasting" and "eternal" did not mean infinite to the ancient Greeks in the way we moderns think. There were Greek words that could have been used for eternal if that's what the author wanted, but he did not use them. Aion and aionios are for a period with a beginning and an end. They never denoted unending, and are the equivalent of the Hebrew, olam. Sadly, the Latin translations inserted the connotation of "eternal" for aion and aionios, which is simply incorrect and certainly regrettable.

However, there are no issues when it comes to the translation of the universalist passages. They are plain in Greek and English. I know it is difficult to step back a read certain passages again with fresh eyes when you have heard them translated and interpretated a certain way for years and years. But that's what I had to do, and what a lot of people must do with these passages to get to the truth of the matter.

Peace,
Daniel
 
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This thread was moved from Salvation (Soteriology) to Controversial Christian Theology as it is the only place universalism can be taught.
Please remember that the site rules and Statement of Faith has this:

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
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2PhiloVoid

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Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Looking forward to it!

Peace,
Daniel

Nah. I refuse to be ignored, dismissed out of hand and, ultimately, denigrated again and again by anyone who claims to have "special interpretive keys" to the Kingdom (of WHATEVER sort).

I'll just say, peace be to you! See you on the other side.
 
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Der Alte

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Hello, brothers and sisters in Christ. It seems clear to me, on a holistic, contextual reading of the Book of Romans, that Paul supported the idea of universal reconciliation in no uncertain terms. His statements, particularly in chapters 5 and 11, seem to support the eventual salvation not only of the entirety of humanity, but also of the whole cosmos. I have begun explaining my thoughts on this in a series, the first part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 1: The Apostle Paul and the Book of Romans and the second part at The Gospel of Universal Salvation, Part 2: The “Problem” of Election in Romans 9-11.
I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.
Looking forward to it!
Peace,
Daniel
Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, believed in universal salvation.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​
When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not some day by and by.
Jeremiah 13:10-11
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1:32
(32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.​
Some people think 1 Cor 15:22 is a universal reconciliation proof text, but.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​
All mankind are direct descendants of Adam and "in Adam" but all mankind are not "in Christ" that requires a conscious, knowing decision in this life time see e.g. Matt 7:21-23, above. Who is made alive in vs. 23? Not "all mankind" but only those who belong to Christ at His coming.



 
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Der Alte

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***I think it is much easier and faithful to the original languages to interpret seemingly exclusivist passages such as Matthew 25:44-46 in light of the plainly universalist passages rather than the other way around, and for one very simply reason. The words translated in Matthew as "everlasting" and "eternal" did not mean infinite to the ancient Greeks in the way we moderns think. There were Greek words that could have been used for eternal if that's what the author wanted, but he did not use them. Aion and aionios are for a period with a beginning and an end. They never denoted unending, and are the equivalent of the Hebrew, olam. Sadly, the Latin translations inserted the connotation of "eternal" for aion and aionios, which is simply incorrect and certainly regrettable.***
I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. I have often encountered the argument that "aion" and "aionios" never meant "everlasting" or "eternal." FYI I have a graduate degree in Theology and have the latest Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library. Since I am retired X 3 I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios." Here is the result. Some folks dismiss this as a wall of text.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T. [2% of total]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people mistakenly claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51
[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life cuding vovally opposing the government in power is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition here “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]
 
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[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul, Peter and John define/describe “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
I also have a similar study on the OT.

 
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Light of the East

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Not much of a discussion.

BTW - for something to be officially heresy, it must be a dogma of the Church. The Church of Christ (Holy Orthodoxy) does not have a dogma condemning Universal Restoration, so for me, I am not a heretic in believing that Christ will heal all the wounds of sin.
 
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Some people think 1 Cor 15:22 is a universal reconciliation proof text, but.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
All mankind are direct descendants of Adam and "in Adam" but all mankind are not "in Christ" that requires a conscious, knowing decision in this life time see e.g. Matt 7:21-23, above. Who is made alive in vs. 23? Not "all mankind" but only those who belong to Christ at His coming.
Nice of you to chop off the rest of the chapter to prove your point

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

What part of "all" do you not understand? The way the verse is structured makes it quite clear that as through one man, Adam, death entered the world, so by one man, the same thing happens in reverse, that life is given to all.

23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

In your eschatology, the authority of death still reigns over a multitude of mankind, for to be in the eternal hell in which you fervently believe, is to be dead. Dead to God, separated from union with Him, which is the state of death.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

To be under His feet is to be in subjection to Him. Now, having a hell filled with souls cursing God, wishing Him dead, continuing in the sins of God-hatred for all eternity is hardly having "all things in subjection." I guess you have a different idea of subjection than I do.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Not if eternal torment (i.e. death) is real. God keeps souls in existence in a state of death, which is separation from Him. How do you claim that death is conquered if it is allowed to continue for all eternity?

27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

And how is God "all in all" when He has not reconciled His enemies to Himself.

And BTW - your tiresome tirade about "aionios" is boring. Greek scholars have made the point that "aionios" does not mean "eternal," yet you claim to be better and smarter than they are. And I guess that the Greek speaking saints of the Church, such as St. Greory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian didn't really understand their language correctly either. I mean, you might have a case if the Greeks had wholesale denied Apokatastasis, but since there were a number of Early Fathers who taught it, including four theological schools, I think perhaps you might be wrong.
 
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Light of the East

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Neither the Father, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, believed in universal salvation.

Which means, if you can set aside your presuppositions and prejudices long enough to meditate on this, that God created everything knowing in advance (foreknowledge) that Adam would fall and thus condemn billions of sentient beings to an eternity of unrelenting suffering. Since God foreknew this would happen and yet, not needing to do so, went ahead with the creation of man anyway, then the only thing you can deduce from this is that it was His will from the beginning of time that these billions would suffer. In essence, He created them to suffer to bring glory to Himself, just as the Calvinists state.

When a creative act is done, all things are ordered to a goal, a telos which is the purpose of the creative act. Since God foreknew that the end would be horrendous suffering forever for billions, then that was the end to which He created these beings.

Nice God you have there!
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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The Church of Christ (Holy Orthodoxy) does not have a dogma condemning Universal Restoration, so for me, I am not a heretic in believing that Christ will heal all the wounds of sin.

The Orthodox church is not my authority nor that of millions of Christians around the world.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Which means, if you can set aside your presuppositions and prejudices long enough to meditate on this, that God created everything knowing in advance (foreknowledge) that Adam would fall and thus condemn billions of sentient beings to an eternity of unrelenting suffering. Since God foreknew this would happen and yet, not needing to do so, went ahead with the creation of man anyway, then the only thing you can deduce from this is that it was His will from the beginning of time that these billions would suffer. In essence, He created them to suffer to bring glory to Himself, just as the Calvinists state.

When a creative act is done, all things are ordered to a goal, a telos which is the purpose of the creative act. Since God foreknew that the end would be horrendous suffering forever for billions, then that was the end to which He created these beings.

Nice God you have there!

No, that is why the Great Commission is important. The more seeds that are sown the more people that will be saved. Not everyone goes to the NHNE no matter how much you try and twist the text.
 
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Nice of you to chop off the rest of the chapter to prove your point
I didn't. You did not clarify what you meant by the rest of the chapter. I'm certain that what I quoted was clear enough, which you ignored. I love these kind of "I'm going to put this guy in his place posts."
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
What part of "in Christ" do you NOT understand? All mankind are in Adam since they are direct descendants of Adam. But all mankind is NOT "in Christ" That requires a knowing personal decision in this life.

What part of "all" do you not understand? The way the verse is structured makes it quite clear that as through one man, Adam, death entered the world, so by one man, the same thing happens in reverse, that life is given to all.
What part of "In Christ" do you NOT understand? Have you read the end of the Book?
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
In your eschatology, the authority of death still reigns over a multitude of mankind, for to be in the eternal hell in which you fervently believe, is to be dead. Dead to God, separated from union with Him, which is the state of death.
Where does vs. 23 or any other vs. say anyone is saved after "those who are Christ's" are saved? Hell is hell, death is no longer living.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
To be under His feet is to be in subjection to Him. Now, having a hell filled with souls cursing God, wishing Him dead, continuing in the sins of God-hatred for all eternity is hardly having "all things in subjection." I guess you have a different idea of subjection than I do.
Thank you for your unsupported opinion what "To be under His feet" means.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Not if eternal torment (i.e. death) is real. God keeps souls in existence in a state of death, which is separation from Him. How do you claim that death is conquered if it is allowed to continue for all eternity?

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
In the last chapter of the Bible it says this. No more salvation and no more death
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Not dead, not submitting to Jesus. Where are these unjust and filthy?
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [new Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
And how is God "all in all" when He has not reconciled His enemies to Himself.
See reply immediately above.
And BTW - your tiresome tirade about "aionios" is boring. Greek scholars have made the point that "aionios" does not mean "eternal," yet you claim to be better and smarter than they are. And I guess that the Greek speaking saints of the Church, such as St. Greory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian didn't really understand their language correctly either. I mean, you might have a case if the Greeks had wholesale denied Apokatastasis, but since there were a number of Early Fathers who taught it, including four theological schools, I think perhaps you might be wrong.
Well, since you are so knowledgeable go back to my "aionios" post and show me, point by point, how I am wrong. Don't try to dazzle me by vague references to Greek scholars ancient or modern.
Here are 2 vss. spoken by Jesus, start with them.

John 3:15-16 [according to the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT see link below]
(15)so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life.
In these 2 vss. Jesus has juxtaposed "aionios" with "should not perish." Thus by definition aionios mean "eternal."

Please note this Orthodox Greek source refutes your claim about the Greek word "aionios."
 
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Der Alte

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Which means, if you can set aside your presuppositions and prejudices long enough to meditate on this, that God created everything knowing in advance (foreknowledge) that Adam would fall and thus condemn billions of sentient beings to an eternity of unrelenting suffering. Since God foreknew this would happen and yet, not needing to do so, went ahead with the creation of man anyway, then the only thing you can deduce from this is that it was His will from the beginning of time that these billions would suffer. In essence, He created them to suffer to bring glory to Himself, just as the Calvinists state.
When a creative act is done, all things are ordered to a goal, a telos which is the purpose of the creative act. Since God foreknew that the end would be horrendous suffering forever for billions, then that was the end to which He created these beings.
Nice God you have there!
No, zero, none scripture cited only your unsupported opinion. Please don't even think about quoting any "scholars" unless they are quoting scripture. I am not interested in the unsupported opinions of so-called scholars,
 
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Light of the East

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The Orthodox church is not my authority nor that of millions of Christians around the world.

That is because you, and millions of other Christians around the world, while well-meaning, are deceived and do not understand either Christian history or authority. Go back and study the instances in the Bible where God established an authority on earth and see what happens when people oppose that authority. We will all answer for our lives at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and being in opposition to the authorities which Christ our God has set upon the earth is not going to go well for any of us.
 
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Light of the East

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No, zero, none scripture cited only your unsupported opinion. Please don't even think about quoting any "scholars" unless they are quoting scripture. I am not interested in the unsupported opinions of so-called scholars,


It's called "philosophy." Many of the great Christians used it to help define God. You don't find every single thing about the Christian faith in the Bible.

BTW - Thank you for the link to the Greek NT. I will bookmark that and am interested in reading.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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That is because you, and millions of other Christians around the world, while well-meaning, are deceived and do not understand either Christian history or authority. Go back and study the instances in the Bible where God established an authority on earth and see what happens when people oppose that authority. We will all answer for our lives at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and being in opposition to the authorities which Christ our God has set upon the earth is not going to go well for any of us.

I do believe in authority. Just not the way the apostolic traditions do it. They think you just touch the person and say some words and that gives authority. It doesn't.
 
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