Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The smoke rises forever. It still doesn't change Christ's teaching about the second death and the fact that he will go on and make all things new after the former things are passed away.

The smoke of "their torment" to be precise. IF they were merely dead then there is no torment.

Nice try though. Do you really have a problem with the devil and his messengers being tortured forever and ever?

 

[Hentenza]

I don't believe in salvation via correct doctrines

So you just make it up as you go. Mmmm

Jesus is the Savior of the world. No getting around it. That's the testimony. Nothing less

We definitely agree. The problem is that not all of the world will choose Christ as their Lord and Savior and there are people that will choose to remain evil and not repent.

“No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 13:5 No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

bible.com

Why would Jesus make a call to repentance if repentance was not needed?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So you just make it up as you go. Mmmm

The correct response would be "I agree" or "I disagree" and here's why.

You believe you are only saved via "correct doctrines?"

Yea or Nay?

We definitely agree. The problem is that not all of the world will choose Christ as their Lord and Savior

I don't believe God is contingent upon man's actions (or not). Sorry

and there are people that will choose to remain evil and not repent.

I think we've covered this topic at length. Still waiting on you to figure out that mankind is under the thumb of the tempter, and therefore man is not just a sole individual.

“No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Devils won't be repenting, so the above is basically a sentence to hell for them.

God may grant repentance for the person. Some overtly, most covertly.

Luke 13:5 No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

bible.com

Why would Jesus make a call to repentance if repentance was not needed?

Depends

When the law is sown, Satan reacts does he not? Who then is the law for and who then is the law against?

In your sights you only see man, yet we can both read that Satan reacts by sinning to any Word of God - (too many scriptures to cite you again and again)

 

[Jipsah]

Elementary school goading doesn’t work for most adults

I takr that to mrsn that you have no response to what I just said. But we both knew that at the outset, didn't we?

so if you want to have an adult conversation

Then I'll have to have it with an adult.

then get serious about the topic

I'm serious as a bus wreck, matey. if you can find some reason that, when we're told the the Onmipotent God Who created the universe, wants something, He isn't going to get it. So far you haven't tried. I take that as a simple admission that you can't come up with one. Which, of course, we both knew all along. The difference you have shakily formed but strongly held doctrine that you feel the need to defend at all costs, If ir requres you to cast logic to the winds, then that's what you do, Not an uncommon dilemma for folks who can't fathom how the teaching of their particular sect/denomination/whatever can possibly be wrong. So they're ready to inveigh against logic, evidence, Scripture, reason, or whatever else that appears to threaten it.

. Until then I have better things to do.

I have no doubt of it.

Elementary school goading doesn’t work for most adults

The sad part is when one believes that any disagreement with even their most ill-founded beliefs is "goading"..

so if you want to have an adult conversation

Then, as I said, I'll have to find an actual adult.

then get serious about the topic.

Which to you would mean believing with your illogical notions. And that's within the realm of possibility, but waving your arms and shouting isn't going to effective, ever.

Until then I have better things to do.

 

[Hentenza]

The correct response would be "I agree" or "I disagree" and here's why.

You believe you are only saved via "correct doctrines?"

Yea or Nay?

lol but that’s not what you said. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith. Nothing else added. And if you agree then you know that faith is necessary for salvation.

I don't believe God is contingent upon man's actions (or not). Sorry

God is not contingent on anything. The call to salvation goes to all but God has mercy on who He wants. God has the foreknowledge to know all outcomes.

I think we've covered this topic at length. Still waiting on you to figure out that mankind is under the thumb of the tempter, and therefore man is not just a sole individual.

Devils won't be repenting, so the above is basically a sentence to hell for them.

God may grant repentance for the person. Some overtly, most covertly.

Depends

When the law is sown, Satan reacts does he not? Who then is the law for and who then is the law against?

In your sights you only see man, yet we can both read that Satan reacts by sinning to any Word of God - (too many scriptures to cite you again and again)

Is not my sights since God is not contingent on me and is not man but only the men that scripture describes as impious and evil. In other words all that die in their sins.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm serious as a bus wreck, matey.

I’m not your matey.

if you can find some reason that, when we're told the the Onmipotent God Who created the universe, wants something, He isn't going to get it. So far you haven't tried.

I haven’t tried because I don’t like wasting my time in childish games but let’s have a little discussion.

God created the world and declared everything good. Then a few hundred years later destroyed it all via the flood. Did the Almighty God make a mistake and had to start all over?

Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent but instead it didn’t which prompted Jesus to melancholically declare that Israel did not want to. Jesus is God. Did God not know that Israel was not going to follow Jesus?

The answer to both is no, These are just two examples of anthropomorphisms to attempt to explain in human terms how God feels and acts to human minds that could never understand an infinite, perfect being. God knows all actions and all things so all that happens is by design. If you don’t like what God has chosen to reveal in scripture then you are elevating yourself about the Lord.

Just as God wanted His creation to be good and Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent God sent His only son to redeem all of mankind. And just as the early inhabitants of the world failed to be good and all of Israel failed to repent, some will not follow Christ and will deny the redemptive sacrifice. Those will not be saved. The scripture is full of calls to repent and to have faith for a reason. If all are saved at the end then the exhortations make absolutely no sense.

 

[Jipsah]

God’s “will” will always prevail.

All except His will that all be saved, right?

 

[Jipsah]

I’m not your matey.

G

I haven’t tried because I don’t like wasting my time in childish games but let’s have a little discussion.

God created the world and declared everything good. Then a few hundred years later destroyed it all via the flood. Did the Almighty God make a mistake and had to start all over?

Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent but instead it didn’t which prompted Jesus to melancholically declare that Israel did not want to. Jesus is God. Did God not know that Israel was not going to follow Jesus?

The answer to both is no, These are just two examples of anthropomorphisms to attempt to explain in human terms how God feels and acts to human minds that could never understand an infinite, perfect being. God knows all actions and all things so all that happens is by design. If you don’t like what God has chosen to reveal in scripture then you are elevating yourself about the Lord.

Just as God wanted His creation to be good and Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent God sent His only son to redeem all of mankind. And just as the early inhabitants of the world failed to be good and all of Israel failed to repent, some will not follow Christ and will deny the redemptive sacrifice. Those will not be saved. The scripture is full of calls to repent and to have faith for a reason. If all are saved at the end then the exhortations make absolutely no sense.

I’m not your matey.

Figure of speech OM. (OM is another figure of speech, in common usage amongst amateur radio operators. You may like that better.. or not.)

I haven’t tried because I don’t like wasting my time in childish games but let’s have a little discussion.

It appears it'll be a very little indeed. I doubt that we'd be able to agree on what "the" means.

God created the world and declared everything good.

So I've been told.

Then a few hundred years later destroyed it all via the flood.

Yep, I heard of that as well.

Did the Almighty God make a mistake and had to start all over?

Since your concentration on the Old Testament appears to exceed mine, I'm keen to hear your opinion .

Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent but instead it didn’t which prompted Jesus to melancholically declare that Israel did not want to. Jesus is God. Did God not know that Israel was not going to follow Jesus?

I trust this is leading up to a dramatic revelation...

The answer to both is no, These are just two examples of anthropomorphisms to attempt to explain in human terms how God feels and acts to human minds that could never understand an infinite, perfect being. God knows all actions and all things so all that happens is by design. If you don’t like what God has chosen to reveal in scripture then you are elevating yourself about the Lord.

Interesting viewpoint.

Just as God wanted His creation to be good and Jesus wanted all of Israel to repent God sent His only son to redeem all of mankind. And just as the early inhabitants of the world failed to be good and all of Israel failed to repent, some will not follow Christ and will deny the redemptive sacrifice. Those will not be saved. The scripture is full of calls to repent and to have faith for a reason. If all are saved at the end then the exhortations make absolutely no sense.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Bye.

 

[Hentenza]

G



Figure of speech OM. (OM is another figure of speech, in common usage amongst amateur radio operators. You may like that better.. or not.)

It appears it'll be a very little indeed. I doubt that we'd be able to agree on what "the" means.

So I've been told.

Yep, I heard of that as well.

Since your concentration on the Old Testament appears to exceed mine, I'm keen to hear your opinion .

I trust this is leading up to a dramatic revelation...

Interesting viewpoint.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Bye.

All of that posturing by you and that’s it? No attempt at refutation? No obligatory out of context scripture?

 

[Jipsah]

All of that posturing by you and that’s it? No attempt at refutation? No obligatory out of context scripture?

I said my piece, and you either understood or didn't. It's of little importance to me either way.

Bye.

 

[Hentenza]

All except His will that all be saved, right?

God can save everyone if He wishes but then why make it so dramatic and send His only son to be tortured and killed on the cross for the sins of all that believe in Him? Heck, He could have just made a perfect world where no sin was possible and salvation was guaranteed. Maybe you can give God some pointers.

 

[RamiC]

I don't believe in salvation via correct doctrines

Jesus is the Savior of the world. No getting around it. That's the testimony. Nothing less

You appear to be preaching a false gospel there...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matthew 7:21-23 ESV


16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” - Luke 3:16-18 ESV


14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14-15

Please get your name written into the book of life...because Jesus loves you.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You appear to be preaching a false gospel there...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

A. I believe every Word of God applies to everyone. Inclusive of the "Lord, Lord" above. Do you?

Ref. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

I'll leave the conclusion of partial or false for you to determine for yourself.

Same statement for any scripture you'll care to quote.

And just a footnote: If you haven't figured out that you carry the tempter in your own flesh and mind and only see yourself in the equations that would technically be spiritual blindness. Nothing personal. God in Christ will save you regardless of present captivity

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

lol but that’s not what you said. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith. Nothing else added. And if you agree then you know that faith is necessary for salvation.

How many times do we have to repeat this?

Everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7

Why are your technicalities soooo stingy?

God is not contingent on anything. The call to salvation goes to all but God has mercy on who He wants. God has the foreknowledge to know all outcomes.

Well of course God is and can only be contingent in your formulas, being completely worthless to do anything unless someone else "reacts." That makes God very much only contingent, or worthless as the case is when God can not save because of someone else.

Are you really going to write off everyone who ever lived before Christ came? Everyone who never heard the Gospel? Every mentally deficient person who can't understand? Just toss them all in the eternal fire? What kind of ogre does that? Has your position no heart?

Is not my sights since God is not contingent on me and is not man but only the men that scripture describes as impious and evil. In other words all that die in their sins.

Your argument is circular i.e. doesn't make sense. God is very specifically contingent on your reactions to Him. You must for example "heed the call." Otherwise, no dice.

And for the record, no one escapes the facts of having evil present within them. No one. Mark 7:21-23 is not contingent or optional, but ROCK SOLID FACT observable by anyone in reality, internally or externally.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God can save everyone if He wishes but then why make it so dramatic and send His only son to be tortured and killed on the cross for the sins of all that believe in Him? Heck, He could have just made a perfect world where no sin was possible and salvation was guaranteed. Maybe you can give God some pointers.

For the record, God in Christ came precisely to both reveal and condemn these parties:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That would be the devil and his messengers

God slated all of us to suffer "under them" in the flesh

 

[RamiC]

A. I believe every Word of God applies to everyone. Inclusive of the "Lord, Lord" above. Do you?

No.

Faith only saves those who have faith, reprmands for specific sins only apply to the people who have committed those sins, Peter is the only rock upon which He said He would build His church...and that is only the Peter He was talking to. The Bible is the word of God, as is the Holy Ghost, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. John 1 v1 ESV and no not each and every word addresses everyone. I have no idea why you believe the statements you are making.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

No.

Faith only saves those who have faith,

Faith works "through love" so do the math. Gal. 5:6. Therefore anyone who loves has faith. 1 John 4:7

Your position is merely stingy and short sighted, designed to keep people out of heaven. Why would you do that anyway? There is no profit for you to keep people OUT. That's the strangeness of your gospel, little g

reprmands for specific sins only apply to the people who have committed those sins, Peter is the only rock upon which He said He would build His church...

Oh, don't even go there with me. One minute Peter spoke truthfully, and in the very next instant Satan was speaking from Peter's lips. That is the ROCK of God in Christ's TRUTH, that where the Word is sown, Satan comes immediately into the heart to steal. Your position just missed the obvious point of the exercise.

and that is only the Peter He was talking to. The Bible is the word of God, as is the Holy Ghost, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. John 1 v1 ESV and no not each and every word addresses everyone. I have no idea why you believe the statements you are making.

I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world who actually gets the job done. How bout you?

 

[RamiC]

Your position is merely stingy and short sighted, designed to keep people out of heaven. Why would you do that anyway? There is no profit for you to keep people OUT. That's the strangeness of your gospel, little g

I am not God, I cannot keep anyone out of heaven, I do not have the key.

I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world who actually gets the job done. How bout you?

Jesus saves those who ask to be saved, and mean it.

He does not force those who do not wish to go.

 

[JulieB67]

The smoke of "their torment" to be precise. IF they were merely dead then there is no torment.

You do realize that verse and those above it are not talking about Satan and his devils right? They are talking about those that take the mark and worship the beast.

And once again, Christ is very clear about the second death. And I will certainly take his word over yours.

Once the Lake of Fire has served it's purpose it will cease to exist. It will be a "former thing" and afterwards Christ will make all things new.

 

[Hentenza]

How many times do we have to repeat this?

Everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7

Why are your technicalities soooo stingy?

The issue is relying on out of context verses to make a theology. Just about every time you post a verse in defense of UR there are verses following the one you posted that clarify the meaning and does not support UR. Take 1 John 4:7 for example. Look at what comes after:

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭15‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 John 4:15-17 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love re | New American Standard Bible - NA

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love re

bible.com

Only those that confess Jesus is the Son of God remain in God’s love. By staying in God then love is perfected in us and THEN there is no fear of the day of judgement. Verses cannot be understood in an island. Context is critical to understand both the meaning and the writer’s intention which leads to the correct interpretation.

Well of course God is and can only be contingent in your formulas, being completely worthless to do anything unless someone else "reacts." That makes God very much only contingent, or worthless as the case is when God can not save because of someone else.

lol I hold no formulas and me, a tiny created being, can never make an infinite being contingent. Think about what you are saying. This is an emotional fallacy.

Are you really going to write off everyone who ever lived before Christ came?

Again, read your Bible.

Everyone who never heard the Gospel?

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within th | New American Standard Bible - NA

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within th

bible.com

No one has an excuse.

Every mentally deficient person who can't understand? Just toss them all in the eternal fire? What kind of ogre does that? Has your position no heart?

Again, read your Bible.

Your argument is circular i.e. doesn't make sense. God is very specifically contingent on your reactions to Him. You must for example "heed the call." Otherwise, no dice.

The Bible CLEARLY teaches that faith is necessary for salvation. There is no wiggle room here but God does as He wills.

And for the record, no one escapes the facts of having evil present within them. No one. Mark 7:21-23 is not contingent or optional, but ROCK SOLID FACT observable by anyone in reality, internally or externally.

The difference is that those in Christ have been justified and cleansed of all sin through Christ sacrifice while those that are not in Christ remain in their sins. Big difference here.