The 24 elders in heaven, in Revelation 4:4

[RevealedTruths]

Angels cannot procreate with humans, nor ever have.

What about the Nephilim then?

 

[Timtofly]

What about the Nephilim then?

You mean the sons of God who were physically larger than Adam's dead corruptible flesh? The word giant is not a race of people. All the sons of God were those giants. The Hebrew word is not a proper noun. It is just saying the sons of God were giants.

Angels are not giants. They are stars.

 

[Douggg]

You mean the sons of God who were physically larger than Adam's dead corruptible flesh? The word giant is not a race of people. All the sons of God were those giants. The Hebrew word is not a proper noun. It is just saying the sons of God were giants.

Angels are not giants. They are stars.

In the Genesis 6 account, it doesn't appear that the "sons of God" was being used in a positive way. Which seems to imply fallen angels. And there is that verse of Jude 1:6...

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Douggg]

You mean the sons of God who were physically larger than Adam's dead corruptible flesh?

Tim, you are not communicating clearly. Were the giants in those days - hybrids as a results of sex between angels and human women or not ?

 

[RevealedTruths]

Tim, you are not communicating clearly. Were the giants in those days - hybrids as a results of sex between angels and human women or not ?

Yes they were, Enoch confirms this.

 

[rwb]

Yes they were, Enoch confirms this.

If the sons of God were fallen angels, why is God angry with mankind? Notice the passage says MEN began to multiply and daughters were born to THEM. The sons of God took them to be their wives. Instead of being angry with so-called fallen angels, as would be reasonable, God says His spirit will not always strive with MAN. No mention of anger against so-called fallen angels. In His anger with man of flesh, God limits the days of MANKIND upon the earth to 120 years. God will send the flood waters upon the earth to destroy MAN from the face of the earth. Why would God not destroy the so-called fallen angels in His wrath, if the sons of God were indeed fallen angels?

Genesis 6:1-3 (KJV) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Angels cannot procreate with human beings because they are spirit beings that cannot marry, and do not die, and a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luke 20:36 (KJV) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Who were these giants in the earth both before and after the flood that were the offspring of the sons of God and daughters of men, who became men of renown and mighty?

Genesis 6:4 (KJV) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 (KJV) And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Genesis 10:8 (KJV) And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

Giants are the sons of Anak, a human, apparently a race of great physical strength and stature. They were apparently of the Cainite stock, and the text carefully distinguishes them from the offspring of the mixed marriages. Mighty men have nothing to do with stature, but means heroes, warriors. The children of these mixed human marriages between the sons of God and daughters of men were a race of brave fighting men, who by their martial deeds won for themselves reputation.

 

[Timtofly]

In the Genesis 6 account, it doesn't appear that the "sons of God" was being used in a positive way. Which seems to imply fallen angels. And there is that verse of Jude 1:6...

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It was not a positive experience. The sons of God saw Adam's dead corruptible flesh as being pleasing to them. Just like Eve saw the fruit as being pleasing to her.

Eve was not an angel. Neither were the sons of God, just because they saw something desirable that would bring about negative results. Eve eating the fruit was viewed by her as a positive, but was the negative that brought sin into the world. No one is viewing what the sons of God did as positive, as it led to generations of wickedness that had to be destroyed after almost 600 years of sinful offspring.

But Genesis 6 had nothing to do with angels period. Scripture never says the angels came and procreated with the sons of God. That would not cause sin and wickedness. It would be weird, and not even possible. The only way humankind as a whole would become wicked is if offspring of those sons of God, created on the 6th day, procreated with Adam's offspring at some point. That angels become corrupted would not cause all of humanity to be corrupted. Humanity was corrupted because Adam brought sin into the world.

The sons of God were sin free humans until they had offspring with Adam's flesh. Then their offspring become sinful into dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Douggg]

The sons of God saw Adam's dead corruptible flesh as being pleasing to them

What does the text say.... ? Are you going to go by the bible or not ?

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

"came in" from where ?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Tim, those angels did not stay in heaven where they were intended to live, but "came in" to dwell amongst humans taking daughters of men and baring children to them - that became the giants, hybrids.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you are not communicating clearly. Were the giants in those days - hybrids as a results of sex between angels and human women or not ?

No. Those created on the 6th Day were giants compared to Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Angels cannot procreate period.

Leaving the firmament is not procreation. It is leaving the firmament. That would be like saying every time a person walks out of their house, they are procreating with other humans. No, they are just walking outside.

If they had procreated, Jude would have stated they left their first estate and procreated with humans. You all are adding words to Scripture that don't belong.

That is circular reasoning. You interpret and add to Jude to point out your interpretation of Genesis 6. Then you add to Genesis 6 what is not there by stating Jude, but not Jude, what you added to Jude to understand Genesis 6. That is not interpreting. That is adding facts to both chapters that are not there, and not even logical.

The sons of God became corrupted by the procreation of their parents. Not because they left the firmament. The sons of God were not placed in the firmament. The stars were. The sons of God were placed on earth to have dominion over the creation on earth.

The angels "sinned" because they left the firmament in solidarity of disobedience to God, not because they became corrupted from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

In Jude, the only place those angels arrived at was the chains of darkness in the pit. Jude never claimed they came to earth. Obviously they must have headed for earth, but God intervened, and they ended up under the earth, in the place prepared for them. They are released in the 5th Trumpet now as judgment to those on the earth. Do people expect them to procreate at the 5th Trumpet? Why not? They expected it when they were chained up in the pit.

It is impossible to expect it now, just as it is impossible to say it happened in Genesis 6.

 

[Douggg]

No. Those created on the 6th Day were giants compared to Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

You all are adding words to Scripture that don't belong.

Tim, it does not say "Adam's dead corruptible flesh" in the text.

 

[Douggg]

The angels "sinned" because they left the firmament in solidarity of disobedience to God, not because they became corrupted from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Tim, you have it just backwards. As a result of the angels who kept not their first estate corrupting the human race by baring children to the daughters of men, violence became widespread on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes they were, Enoch confirms this.

Enoch did not confirm it. Enoch was not even around when things started to happen.

Enoch is a mythological account written thousands of years after the Flood.

My theory was the sons of God procreated with Noah's aunts and uncles. Even with Noah's offspring for 500 years. Unless you think Noah did not even marry until he was almost 500 years old. Noah watched what was happening for 500 years. He wanted no part in it, and God counted that as righteousness. When the triplets were born, is when Noah started building the ark in obedience to God, and his faith in God. When the ark was finished, Noah was 600 years old, and his sons almost 100. They all survived God's Judgment. This also agrees with Isaiah 65 that those children being 100 years old are not considered dead to sin. Shem, Ham, and Japheth were still sinners but survived life after turning 100 and were spared God's judgment. Shem was more than likely Melchizedek alive in Jerusalem, as the King of Salem in Abraham's day. The last direct priestly line even though a sinner. Abraham was chosen to carry on with Isaac and Jacob and the Levites. But it would be another 600 years until Moses led them out of Egypt.

Moses and Daniel wrote out God's Word hundreds of years before Enoch was written.

 

[Timtofly]

What does the text say.... ? Are you going to go by the bible or not ?

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

"came in" from where ?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Tim, those angels did not stay in heaven where they were intended to live, but "came in" to dwell amongst humans taking daughters of men and baring children to them - that became the giants, hybrids.

Nope. The sons of God were both male and female. Angels have no gender distinctions. They cannot procreate. The angels are not those created on the 6th day. Genesis 1:27-28

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

These are the sons of God. These are not angels. Angels were placed in the firmament. Genesis 1:14-17.

The names were not applied in the text until names became necessary. Adam named the animals then God named Adam. Adam named Eve after they disobeyed God. Cain and Abel were named at birth. The sons of God were named only after they started procreating with Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They were not angels. Angels were named to guard the entrance of Paradise.

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Genesis 6 is not naming angels, but those humans created on day 6 in contrast with Adam's fallen offspring.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, it does not say "Adam's dead corruptible flesh" in the text.

It does not say angels either.

The angels did not become corrupt. The sons of God created on the 6th day became corrupt.

Paul calls Adam's flesh dead and corruptible. I am using Paul's description.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you have it just backwards. As a result of the angels who kept not their first estate corrupting the human race by baring children to the daughters of men, violence became widespread on the earth.

Nope. Paul said by one man, Adam, sin entered the world.

Show me where Paul states angels brought sin into the world.

 

[rwb]

"came in" from where ?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Tim, those angels did not stay in heaven where they were intended to live, but "came in" to dwell amongst humans taking daughters of men and baring children to them - that became the giants, hybrids.

"Came in" is simply a way of saying the sons of God made their abode with the daughters of men. IOW the sons of God from the line of Seth, abode, lay down with the daughters of Cain, who was driven out, or away from the line that began to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26) to be cursed from the earth, as a fugitive and vagabond upon the earth (Gen 4:14-16).

The angels of Jude 1:6 are most likely the angels that were cast out of heaven with the dragon when there was a war in heaven when Christ was born and Michael and his angels cast out the dragon and his angels. So, their place (habitation) was in heaven but having sided with the dragon they lost their place in heaven only to be reserved in chains of darkness for the day of judgment.

Revelation 12:7-8 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Jude 6 (KJV) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Douggg]

Nope. The sons of God were both male and female. Angels have no gender distinctions. They cannot procreate. The angels are not those created on the 6th day. Genesis 1:27-28

It says "the man Gabriel" referring to the angel Gabriel in Daniel 9:21.


Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

 

[rwb]

It says "the man Gabriel" referring to the angel Gabriel in Daniel 9:21.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Yes, Gabriel is called a man, and the Bible says he is an angel of God. Daniel says in his vision he saw someone "as the appearance of man." There are numerous examples of angels taking on the appearance of humans.

Daniel 8:15 (KJV) And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

We know from the New Testament that Gabriel is an angel of God because he appears to Zacharias and the mother Mary as an angel of the Lord. So clearly an angel of the Lord can be in appearance of a man. There is no evidence that angels of the Lord co-habitat with the daughters of man. The argument for angels in Genesis 6 is that the sons of God are supposed to be fallen angels, not angels of the Lord.

 

[DavidPT]

Angels have no gender distinctions. They cannot procreate.

Of course they can't procreate since it would be pretty silly for God to have designed them with that ability, then the moment they do this God becomes irate with them for doing something he gave them the ability to do in the first place. If God created them with the capability to procreate, who exactly was He wanting them to do that with? Surely not earth women if by them doing that God gets angered big time about it, so angered that He decides to wipe everyone out. It's common sense things like this that tell us to not take some of these things in a literal sense, since it is not reasonable that God created angels with the ability to procreate, then gets angry at them for doing just that.

 

[Timtofly]

"Came in" is simply a way of saying the sons of God made their abode with the daughters of men. IOW the sons of God from the line of Seth, abode, lay down with the daughters of Cain, who was driven out, or away from the line that began to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen 4:26) to be cursed from the earth, as a fugitive and vagabond upon the earth (Gen 4:14-16).

The angels of Jude 1:6 are most likely the angels that were cast out of heaven with the dragon when there was a war in heaven when Christ was born and Michael and his angels cast out the dragon and his angels. So, their place (habitation) was in heaven but having sided with the dragon they lost their place in heaven only to be reserved in chains of darkness for the day of judgment.

Revelation 12:7-8 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Jude 6 (KJV) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The war in heaven is after they are released in the 5th Trumpet. Revelation 12:7 is when the 7th Trumpet sounds, kicking Satan out for the last time. If allowed Satan then sits on the throne in Jerusalem for 42 months. This is in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet, a week long celebration. The AoD is the third woe. Daniel 9:27 is the week of the 7th Trumpet.

BTW: Cain and his wife were sons of God. Cain did not marry his sister. Cain did not marry an angel. Seth was the first sinner ever to be born. Cain was married and had offspring before Seth was even born. Seth is the sin nature line. The sons of God were not sinners nor evil. They were in the full image of God, body, soul, and spirit. Seth was born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh image, not God's image. Seth had a dead corruptible body. Genesis 5:3

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Seth was the first human born in sin. Cain and Abel were not born in Adam's dead corruptible image.