You complained I did not understand your point.
Then you paint your point as an observation of common sense, and Scripture to you is just speculation.
You rely on human interpretation passed down for many generations.
There are a number of interpretations of these matters, as you well know.
"Been there, done that" just means something may have you thought you changed in thinking.
People are allowed to change thier position.
It is possible I could change.
And I read over again some posts to others, to understand you.
Obviously you cannot see my points as God's Word, but only my personal speculation. Then you start asking many questions which are strawman points, regarding Scripture to avoid the reason why this theological consensus is contradictory to Scripture.
I didn't follow this comment of your annoyance.
I am not trying to avoid something, whatever you imagine I am trying to avoid.
I did not belittle you're exposition there, I think.
I think I have considered some of your explanations for serious consideration in light of the Scripture.
I think we both presented some thoughts which would not be considered mainstream everywhere.
Common sense points out 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples. Thus 12 + 12 is 24. 24 elders is mentioned. You claim these elders are angels because angels were created 48 hours before humans, thus more ancient than humans.
There you go again.
First, I did not say all the angels were created 48 hours earlier.
I said, way back, I would not insist I know that NO angels were created in that week of Genesis chapter one.
By the way, the word for
created is not used for the stars on the fourth day.
Only those who assume to make and to create are always synonomous terms in Hebrew argue stars were
created on Day #4.
That God MADE them could well mean they appeared to the seer on that day - like the dry land appeared out from under the waters.
And I admit I did not fully understand your equation of stars with angels in a couple of your posts.
I do know that no human being existed until God created man.
God had to reveal by
revelation where he and everything else came from.
In the meantime
"sons of God" in
Job 38 WERE there to witness and rejoice from the beginning.
That they were angels, I take as the best explanation - "morning stars" in the dawn of creation - eldest of sentient beings to appreciate God's creating.
Now to the 12 tribes / 12 disciples matter = 24 elders.
Twenty-four is formed by multiplying twelve by two.
Twelve indicates the completion of God's administration as in
Matthew 19:28.
David divided both the priests and the Levites into twenty-four groups to carry out God's administrative service.
So before the good angels are replaced in this administration by the church, twenty four angelic elders are the ones who carry out God's administration. The renegade power grab of Satan's evil angels is illegal. The ruling of the ancient good angels is according to God's administrative arrangement until the saints of the church reign and administrate for God.
Twelve multiplies by two signifies strengthening by doubling. The meaning is the administrating of the angelic elders is very strong.
You then change the NT point that the redeemed are restored sons of God to being restored angels as only angels are the sons of God. You then call the sons of God pseudo humans instead of sons of God, because to you sons of God are not humans but angels who became humans.
I don't follow your objection.
The evil angels will not be restored. The eternal punishment has been prepared for the devil and all of his angels.
If you want to be fair to what I have been saying - in the OT
"the sons of God" are the angels in
Job and in
Genesis.
In the New Testament the redeemed and regenerated men and women are all
sons of God in Christ Jesus.
It should be no shock that the term could be used over 1,600 years in different senses by the prophetic writers.
In the resurrection sons of God (regenerated and saved humans) need not marry or be given in marriage.
They will be like the angels in heaven.
So your objection seems too convoluted and I don't follow you.
So technically redeemed humans are sons of God. Fallen angels are restored as sons of God thus corrupting human flesh, because Adam and Eve sinned on the 6th day 48 hours after angels were created.
Maybe, just maybe I follow your thoughts here.
I THINK you are saying that fallen angels who took on human bodies are human sons of God . . . or something like that.
They HAD to be human "sons of God" in order to have relations with human women THERFORE (you say) I am teaching that angels are restored as sons of God.
With my limited understanding of this, I see angels can come as humans. They should not STAY in that state.
Gabriel a mighty angel did not, though the Scripture does say "the man Gabriel" of an angel.
The
"angel Gabriel" (Luke 1:28) is also called "the man Gabriel" (Dan. 9:21).
Obedient angels of God DO what they are instructed to, do it quickly, dutifully, and RETURN to their legal realm.
God appeared as a man with TWO men in Genesis 18. The two men were angels.
After they do what God assigns to them, the good angels quickly get out of the story and return to thier position and place.
The EVIL angels who followed Satan are different. They follow SATAN and not God.
And if you argue that angels simply CANNOT do what I believe they did, I would say - "You have a good point. But how do we know? The magicians of Egypt, by their dark arts, imitated what God did in turning a stick into a serpent. (Exodus 7:8-11). HOW do I have the assurance that we know what these beings are and are not capable of ?"
Eventually, the Egyptian sorcerors admitted that the hand of God was doing things they could not do.
You know Antichrist will come with lying WONDERS and Satanic miracles. (Second Thess. 2:9) - "The coming of whom is according to Satan's operations in all power and signs and wonders of a lie."
So I am not so sure we know what these evil angels can and cannot do.
We know their power has a limit. Where that limit IS, we are not that sure.
The exceedingly wicked ones abandoned something of thier God ordained realm and did so to corrupt humanity.
They are the spirits now kept for judgment in a particularly more severe confinement.
That is your basic argument, so now when Job mentions sons of God, they are immediately angels who became sons of God when they left the firmament and corrupted Adam's flesh that was already corrupted any ways. Then they did it again in Sodom and Gomorrah. Because we don't know when exactly they were chained up.
I would explain again and answer your questions, but the disagreement won't change any at this point.
I'm sorry Timtofly, but your analysis I don't think is representative of how I understand the Bible on this.
1.) The
"sons of God" in Job 38 are in existence WHILE no human being is yet created.
They are witnessing God's laying the foundation of the earth. They are very ancient - VERY elder to other beings.
2.) There are good "sons of God" - angels.
And there are evil "sons of God" - angels.
Both are very ancient. Both existed before any man or whatever you imagine was created on the 6th day of Genesis 1.
3.) SOME of the "sons of God" - the BAD ones - the very ancient bad ones - produced [edited] the Nephilim by having illegal unions with descendents of Adam - human beings who were by then on the planet.
4.) These awful "sons of God" - angels of the BAD kind of the Old Testament identification, were especially punished and kept in eternal bonds until their final judgment.
5.) In the New Testament and in the new covenant age the descendents of Adam who are redeemed and regenerated are called the sons of God in Christ Jesus. They will reign forever and ever with Christ
(Rev. 21:7 22:5)
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (21:7)
" . . . for the Lord God will shine upon them and they shall reign forever and ever." (22:5)
Your attempts to portray this general outline appear crackpot are not nearly as overwhealming as you wish.