The 24 elders in heaven, in Revelation 4:4

[Douggg]

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How did they get there?

I am of the opinion that 24 elders are the same saints who's graves were opened when Jesus gave up his spirit and died in Matthew 27:52-53.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Jesus ascended to heaven on the third day, the resurrected saints observed in Jerusalem by many, would have been translated into their everlasting incorruptible eternal bodies and called up to heaven to be the 24 elders that John saw when he was taken in the spirit to heaven in Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

...and likely, one of those saints to come out of their graves was none other than John the Baptist.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How did they get there?

I am of the opinion that 24 elders are the same saints who's graves were opened when Jesus gave up his spirit and died in Matthew 27:52-53.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Jesus ascended to heaven on the third day, the resurrected saints observed in Jerusalem by many, would have been translated into their everlasting incorruptible eternal bodies and called up to heaven to be the 24 elders that John saw when he was taken in the spirit to heaven in Revelation.

I disagree. No one except Christ has an eternal incorruptible body yet. Did you forget what Paul wrote here:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Doug, would you agree that the last trumpet has not sounded yet? I believe you would. Paul made it very clear that all believers will be changed to have incorruptible bodies at the last trumpet. So, why do you have some being changed to have incorruptible bodies before the last trumpet, which contradicts what Paul taught?

You need to keep all scripture in mind whenever you interpret any given passage, such as Matthew 27:52-53. You have to be careful to interpret any given passage in such a way that does not contradict any other scripture and I don't see you doing that here.

Those who were resurrected long ago, as described in Matthew 27:52-53, must have been resurrected with their mortal bodies and died again later like Lazarus did because that's the only way to interpret it without contradicting passages like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

By the way, why do you assume that the 24 elders have bodies? Why can't it be referring to souls of believers just like in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4?

 

[Douggg]

Doug, would you agree that the last trumpet has not sounded yet? I believe you would. Paul made it very clear that all believers will be changed to have incorruptible bodies at the last trumpet. So, why do you have some being changed to have incorruptible bodies before the last trumpet, which contradicts what Paul taught?

Will be a series of trumpet blasts in heaven, when God the Father decides when to send Jesus for the rapture/resurrection event for Christians to escape going through the great tribulation, an end times event. It has not happened yet obviously.

Them who were resurrected, right after Jesus resurrection, seen in Jerusalem, in Matthew 27:52-53, were proof of Jesus being the resurrection to eternal life. Who they were by name is not given, but imo John the baptist was one of them because Jesus was so deeply hurt by John's death.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How did they get there?

I am of the opinion that 24 elders are the same saints who's graves were opened when Jesus gave up his spirit and died in Matthew 27:52-53.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Jesus ascended to heaven on the third day, the resurrected saints observed in Jerusalem by many, would have been translated into their everlasting incorruptible eternal bodies and called up to heaven to be the 24 elders that John saw when he was taken in the spirit to heaven in Revelation.

If 12 are from the NT, they certainly did not come out of their graves at the Cross.

They could be sons of God from the council of Job who never followed after Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not all the sons of God fell into sin and were destroyed in the Flood. Only Adam's dead corruptible flesh survived through Noah, but other sons of God created on the 6th day were never effected by Adam's disobedience.

 

[Douggg]

If 12 are from the NT, they certainly did not come out of their graves at the Cross.

Tim, you are erronously using the term "at the Cross".

It was after Jesus's resurrection, on the third day - not at the Cross - that many saints came bodily out of the grave.

Matthew 27:53

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[grafted branch]

Those who were resurrected long ago, as described in Matthew 27:52-53, must have been resurrected with their mortal bodies and died again later like Lazarus did because that's the only way to interpret it without contradicting passages like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

In Matthew 27:52 the word many <4183> means high in number, multitudinous, plenteous, much, great in amount (extent).

What are you doing with the contradiction in Hebrews 9:27, it is appointed unto men once to die?

 

[DavidPT]

They could be sons of God from the council of Job who never followed after Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not all the sons of God fell into sin and were destroyed in the Flood. Only Adam's dead corruptible flesh survived through Noah, but other sons of God created on the 6th day were never effected by Adam's disobedience.

Though some take the 'us' in Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7, to be meaning only the trinity, I tend to take it means God and His angels combined, and that this doesn't take away that God is a trinity since it would still be including Him. Which then could mean these 24 elders are part of this 'us' meant, assuming that they might be angels rather than men, such as Douggg is proposing. IOW, instead of what you are proposing, maybe this 'us' I brought up helps to explain them?

I'm not dogmatic that they have to be a part of this 'us' meant in those verses I submitted. Yet, I am somewhat dogmatic that the 'us' meant in those verses I submitted, are meaning more than just the trinity, but are also meaning His angels. Because, after all, did not Jesus say those that are worthy to obtain that world, they shall become equal to angels in heaven? But if the angels in heaven were not also initially created in the image of God, why would Jesus say that one will become equal to the angels in heaven? IOW, since God made angels before He made man, and then said let us make man in our image, meaning His image and that He also created angels in His image, I then see it making sense that the 'us' could be including angels.

 

[DavidPT]

What are you doing with the contradiction in Hebrews 9:27, it is appointed unto men once to die?

One could then argue in return, what about the contradiction in Hebrews 9:27, it is appointed unto men once to die, in light of 1 Thessalonians 4:15--we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Surely, Jesus isn't going to kill those that are still alive and remain once He comes, in order to prevent contradicting Hebrews 9:27, is He? What then is the solution? Maybe that there are exceptions to the rule.


What I don't understand, though it's venturing off into another topic altogether, but if there can be exceptions to the rule submitted above, and that Revelation 19 gives the impression there will be no mortal survivors following the day of the Lord, but that Zechariah 14:16 indicates otherwise, why can't this be another example of there sometimes being exceptions to the rule, so to speak?

 

[rwb]

I disagree. No one except Christ has an eternal incorruptible body yet. Did you forget what Paul wrote here:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Doug, would you agree that the last trumpet has not sounded yet? I believe you would. Paul made it very clear that all believers will be changed to have incorruptible bodies at the last trumpet. So, why do you have some being changed to have incorruptible bodies before the last trumpet, which contradicts what Paul taught?

You need to keep all scripture in mind whenever you interpret any given passage, such as Matthew 27:52-53. You have to be careful to interpret any given passage in such a way that does not contradict any other scripture and I don't see you doing that here.

Those who were resurrected long ago, as described in Matthew 27:52-53, must have been resurrected with their mortal bodies and died again later like Lazarus did because that's the only way to interpret it without contradicting passages like 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

By the way, why do you assume that the 24 elders have bodies? Why can't it be referring to souls of believers just like in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4?

One would think that a testimony of the physical bodies of saints who have died would have been too exceptional not to merit a single written witness to such an event in Scripture. Yet we find no reference to this remarkable miracle recorded elsewhere, or do we? That would depend on whether the body witnessed by many is a physical body of flesh, or a spiritual body. It also depends on where the holy city where these resurrected bodies appeared to many is located. Is it the physical city of earthly Jerusalem, or the heavenly city New Jerusalem?

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 5:11 (KJV) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Even though we have no written testimony for physically living humans to corroborate this miracle, we do have evidence from Scripture of the firstfruits of the saints of Christ who had died before Christ's resurrection being raised as spiritual bodies to be as the Lord from heaven, heavenly, becoming the image of heavenly beings. They would have ascended to the holy city in heaven, New Jerusalem, and have been witnessed by ten thousand times ten thousand who are about the throne of God in heaven.

 

[rwb]

Will be a series of trumpet blasts in heaven, when God the Father decides when to send Jesus for the rapture/resurrection event for Christians to escape going through the great tribulation, an end times event. It has not happened yet obviously.

Them who were resurrected, right after Jesus resurrection, seen in Jerusalem, in Matthew 27:52-53, were proof of Jesus being the resurrection to eternal life. Who they were by name is not given, but imo John the baptist was one of them because Jesus was so deeply hurt by John's death.

I agree, John the Baptist would have been one of those spiritual bodies that arose from the grave after Christ's resurrection. They are now with the Lord in heaven in the holy city New Jerusalem and are as the image of heavenly beings. (see post #10 for further proof texts)

 

[rwb]

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How did they get there?

I am of the opinion that 24 elders are the same saints who's graves were opened when Jesus gave up his spirit and died in Matthew 27:52-53.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Jesus ascended to heaven on the third day, the resurrected saints observed in Jerusalem by many, would have been translated into their everlasting incorruptible eternal bodies and called up to heaven to be the 24 elders that John saw when he was taken in the spirit to heaven in Revelation.

I believe the number 24 symbolically represents all those who are now seated on thrones are called (Re 5:10) kings and priests. They are the representatives of Christ's Church and people, of those whom Christ calls His friends, and who are admitted to know what their Lord doeth (Joh 15:15). Various reasons have been suggested why they should be described as twenty-four in number; they are the twelve tribes doubled, to signify the union of the Gentile with the Jewish Church; they are the two sets of twelve, to represent the two Testaments; they are the twelve Patriarchs cojoined with the twelve Apostles. It will be seen that these were all different forms of the same thought, that the twenty-four elders represent the complete Church of God in the past and in the future, in the Jewish and Gentile worlds; and as such the true spiritual successors, as priests to God, of those twenty-four courses (1Ch 24:1-19) arranged by David, and which some have thought gave rise to the use of the number twenty-four in this passage. It is the great united Church. The same thought is touched upon in the double song of Moses and the Lamb (Re 15:3), and in the gates and foundations of the New Jerusalem (Re 21:12,14).

Quoted from: Ellicott's Bible Commentary for English Readers

 

[Douggg]

I believe the number 24 symbolically represents all those who are now seated on thrones are called (Re 5:10) kings and priests. They are the representatives of Christ's Church and people, of those whom Christ calls His friends, and who are admitted to know what their Lord doeth (Joh 15:15). Various reasons have been suggested why they should be described as twenty-four in number; they are the twelve tribes doubled, to signify the union of the Gentile with the Jewish Church; they are the two sets of twelve, to represent the two Testaments; they are the twelve Patriarchs cojoined with the twelve Apostles. It will be seen that these were all different forms of the same thought, that the twenty-four elders represent the complete Church of God in the past and in the future, in the Jewish and Gentile worlds; and as such the true spiritual successors, as priests to God, of those twenty-four courses (1Ch 24:1-19) arranged by David, and which some have thought gave rise to the use of the number twenty-four in this passage. It is the great united Church. The same thought is touched upon in the double song of Moses and the Lamb (Re 15:3), and in the gates and foundations of the New Jerusalem (Re 21:12,14).

Quoted from: Ellicott's Bible Commentary for English Readers

How did the 24 elders get there in heaven to be seen by John is the question, I tried to address in the opening post.

 

[grafted branch]

One could then argue in return, what about the contradiction in Hebrews 9:27, it is appointed unto men once to die, in light of 1 Thessalonians 4:15--we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Surely, Jesus isn't going to kill those that are still alive and remain once He comes, in order to prevent contradicting Hebrews 9:27, is He? What then is the solution? Maybe that there are exceptions to the rule.


What I don't understand, though it's venturing off into another topic altogether, but if there can be exceptions to the rule submitted above, and that Revelation 19 gives the impression there will be no mortal survivors following the day of the Lord, but that Zechariah 14:16 indicates otherwise, why can't this be another example of there sometimes being exceptions to the rule, so to speak?

We don’t always agree but we are in agreement here, I do think there are exceptions.

If those in Matthew 27:52-53 died a second time and is an exception to Hebrews 9:27 then there can also be an exception to the “all being changed” in 1 Corinthians 15:52-52, meaning those in Matthew 27 have already been changed.

The Amil view has several exceptions, such as Nineveh being able to believe while Satan wasn’t bound.

 

[rwb]

How did the 24 elders get there in heaven to be seen by John is the question, I tried to address in the opening post.

In his vision John is shown the full embodiment of all the saints as heaven will be populated according to faith once the Gospel has been proclaimed unto all the earth, and by grace through faith all who hear and believe together in heaven.

Revelation 4:10-11 (KJV) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[rwb]

One could then argue in return, what about the contradiction in Hebrews 9:27, it is appointed unto men once to die, in light of 1 Thessalonians 4:15--we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Surely, Jesus isn't going to kill those that are still alive and remain once He comes, in order to prevent contradicting Hebrews 9:27, is He? What then is the solution? Maybe that there are exceptions to the rule.

Is it necessary for those still alive when Christ returns to physically die? Since they have no physical body to be raised from the grave and changed, why wouldn't they simply be caught up and physically changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible without physically dying?

Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of those who die in unbelief, or as Rev 20 says "the dead" will be called to stand before the GWT. After physical death the next conscience moment for the dead will be the judgment day.

 

[grafted branch]

How did the 24 elders get there in heaven to be seen by John is the question, I tried to address in the opening post.

Another thing to consider is when are the white robes handed out. In Revelation 19:4 we see the 24 elders again. In Revelation 19:7 the marriage of the Lamb has come and in Revelation 19:8 the bride is grated to be arrayed in white.

If these verses are in chronological order and the elders are part of the bride that puts Revelation 4:4 either at or after the marriage.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you are erronously using the term "at the Cross".

It was after Jesus's resurrection, on the third day - not at the Cross - that many saints came bodily out of the grave.

Matthew 27:53

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Verse 52 says they arose when the temple veil was torn. What does arise mean to you?

Do you expect those bodies to re-enter the grave? Are you not adding to the text if you claim they went back into the grave and died again. You say the bodies came out after the resurrection. When exactly was the Resurrection if the tomb was sealed when the Resurrection happened?

 

[Douggg]

Verse 52 says they arose when the temple veil was torn. What does arise mean to you?

No it doesn't. In verse 52, it say the graves were opened. Not that any rose out of those graves until after Jesus's resurrection. You are just reading it wrong.

Here, let me do the wording for you without the verse numbers, so that you can understand.... read this...

, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city and appeared to many.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened;[< stop there Tim, that happened on the day that Jesus died]......... [now this part takes place after Jesus's resurrection>]and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Tim, the earth quaking in verse 51, caused the rocks covering the graves or entryways to be moved aside, opening the graves. But no-one came out until after Jesus's resurrection in verse 52.

 

[Timtofly]

Though some take the 'us' in Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7, to be meaning only the trinity, I tend to take it means God and His angels combined, and that this doesn't take away that God is a trinity since it would still be including Him. Which then could mean these 24 elders are part of this 'us' meant, assuming that they might be angels rather than men, such as Douggg is proposing. IOW, instead of what you are proposing, maybe this 'us' I brought up helps to explain them?

I'm not dogmatic that they have to be a part of this 'us' meant in those verses I submitted. Yet, I am somewhat dogmatic that the 'us' meant in those verses I submitted, are meaning more than just the trinity, but are also meaning His angels. Because, after all, did not Jesus say those that are worthy to obtain that world, they shall become equal to angels in heaven? But if the angels in heaven were not also initially created in the image of God, why would Jesus say that one will become equal to the angels in heaven? IOW, since God made angels before He made man, and then said let us make man in our image, meaning His image and that He also created angels in His image, I then see it making sense that the 'us' could be including angels.

Because Jesus already had a physical body when He went away and created heaven and earth in Genesis 1. Jesus said they already knew when and how earth was created, because it was written in their Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis 1.

Do you have a Verse that says equal to the angels? God is light. Stars are light. Thus in the image of God.

But the sons of God have a soul, spirit, and a body; a trinity. Angels are the stars in the sky, and can take on human form as needed. That does not mean they have a soul, body, or spirit.

The angels created on the 4th day, are only 48 to 72 hours ahead of the sons of God on day 6. If there are 12 tribes and 12 disciples is 24 just another number? What about the 70 or 120, or 144k?

Humans are a little lower because obviously angels are in the firmament, and humans on the surface of the earth. Unless that is not the proper interpretation of a little lower.

If angels decided to walk off the job, where would they go? If punishment was instant, they did not go far.