The 24 elders in heaven, in Revelation 4:4

Timtofly

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Because every time an angel comes to earth in plain sight, they appear as human males.

This was not a vision. Daniel had seen Gabriel in a vision, but in this instance, Gabriel was a man like the two men who took Lot out of Sodom.
 
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Timtofly

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Of course they can't procreate since it would be pretty silly for God to have designed them with that ability, then the moment they do this God becomes irate with them for doing something he gave them the ability to do in the first place. If God created them with the capability to procreate, who exactly was He wanting them to do that with? Surely not earth women if by them doing that God gets angered big time about it, so angered that He decides to wipe everyone out. It's common sense things like this that tell us to not take some of these things in a literal sense, since it is not reasonable that God created angels with the ability to procreate, then gets angry at them for doing just that.
The sons of God are not angels.

Angels are called men when physically walking around on earth, but not the sons of God in Genesis 6.

The sons of God in Genesis 6 were finally given a name, a term, in that Chapter. But they were those created on day 6 both male and female.

The name Adam is the Hebrew word for humans. It could be said they were all adamites, but only Adam was given that personal name. Adam was not just human but in the image of God as a son of God. All those created on the 6th day were humans and sons of God. Obviously they were also giants. What is not well defined is were they divided into genders, or were all of them both male and female. Because later God separated Eve out of Adam. Then all of Adam's offspring were sons and daughters.

We also know that birth itself was changed with the new corruptible bodies Adam and Eve were given. Not only did the offspring of these sons of God take on Adam's dead corruptible flesh, they inherited sin as well. They did not change Adam's flesh. Their flesh was changed into Adam's flesh. That is why they became more and more wicked on earth.

Enoch walked with God and was not found. I would imagine that many of the sons of God went that same route being removed from all the wickedness on earth. That is why after the Flood, those sons of God who did not follow after Adam's flesh were part of God's council in Job. Not because they were angels, but because they rejected the way life on earth was headed. If God allowed a sinner to call upon God, why not sons of God who never sinned like Adam's offspring?
 
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Douggg

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The sons of God in Genesis 6 were finally given a name, a term, in that Chapter. But they were those created on day 6 both male and female.
both male and female - you say.

However, in Genesis 6, it indicates the sons of God were sexually different than of the daughters of men, and that the sons of God bare children to them - which the offspring were giants. So it is not normal human to human reproduction.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And God destroyed the world accordingly by the flood because violence had become so widespread.

Now, go to Ezekiel 28:14-19 prophesying Satan's demise. Sin began with Satan, verse 5. Who, through the serpent, then caused Adam and Eve to sin, and by Adam sin entered the garden of eden, the world.

Satan is the father of lies, and sin.

In verse 16, Satan deals in violence, which is the nature of the angels who kept not their first estate, now imprisoned, until the day of judgment. And by which, the giants fathered by them, spread violence through out the entire world.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
 
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rwb

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The war in heaven is after they are released in the 5th Trumpet. Revelation 12:7 is when the 7th Trumpet sounds, kicking Satan out for the last time. If allowed Satan then sits on the throne in Jerusalem for 42 months. This is in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet, a week long celebration. The AoD is the third woe. Daniel 9:27 is the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Reading the book of Revelation in chronological order causes complete confusion of the book.

Revelation 12:2-11 (KJV) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

BTW: Cain and his wife were sons of God. Cain did not marry his sister. Cain did not marry an angel. Seth was the first sinner ever to be born. Cain was married and had offspring before Seth was even born. Seth is the sin nature line. The sons of God were not sinners nor evil. They were in the full image of God, body, soul, and spirit. Seth was born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh image, not God's image. Seth had a dead corruptible body. Genesis 5:3

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Seth was the first human born in sin. Cain and Abel were not born in Adam's dead corruptible image.

Sin entered creation, and death through sin when A&E disobeyed God.

Genesis 4:25-26 (KJV) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

If Cain had been a son of God he would not have been cast out from God's presence because he murdered his brother Abel. Only believers, as joint heirs with Christ are sons of God. The sons of God, like their parents in the garden took that which was forbidden because what they saw appealed to their fallen human appetites. As a result, they polluted the line that would lead to Christ. That's why God flooded the whole earth and killed every human except righteous Noah and his family, from whom the line to Christ would begin again. Not a pure, perfect or sinless lineage but the lineage that led to Christ none the less.

Luke 1:35 (KJV) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 (KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 
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rwb

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both male and female - you say.

However, in Genesis 6, it indicates the sons of God were sexually different than of the daughters of men, and that the sons of God bare children to them - which the offspring were giants. So it is not normal human to human reproduction.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And God destroyed the world accordingly by the flood because violence had become so widespread.

Now, go to Ezekiel 28:14-19 prophesying Satan's demise. Sin began with Satan, verse 5. Who, through the serpent, then caused Adam and Eve to sin, and by Adam sin entered the garden of eden, the world.

Satan is the father of lies, and sin.

In verse 16, Satan deals in violence, which is the nature of the angels who kept not their first estate, now imprisoned, until the day of judgment. And by which, the giants fathered by them, spread violence through out the entire world.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Sons of God or children of God can indeed be both male and female. But in the Genesis account I have to agree sons of God is speaking of men reproducing offspring by having relations with women.

When you carefully read we find this lamentation is not against Satan exactly, but against the prince of Tyrus, a human who was under the influence of evil.

Ezekiel 28:2 (KJV) Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ezekiel 28:9 (KJV) Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV) Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
 
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Timtofly

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However, in Genesis 6, it indicates the sons of God were sexually different than of the daughters of men, and that the sons of God bare children to them - which the offspring were giants. So it is not normal human to human reproduction.
Sexually different? Giants are not a sexual difference. If a giant procreated with a pygmy, that is not a sexual difference.

How in the world do you think humans domesticated all the different breeds of dogs from wolves, allegedly? They did not use chipmunks to get chihuahuas.

The sons of God were the giants. Adam's dead corruptible flesh were not giants. Angels did not cause the ethnical variance between Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The wives of these 4 descendants of Adam were not the result of angels, but they introduced genetics from the sons of God, that were lacking in Adam and Eve's dead corruptible state from Adam's disobedience.

You should say Adam's flesh corrupted the genetics of the sons of God, and removed the giant genetics. That it still lingers to this day, is because Adam and Eve's genetics were more dominant. It did lead to the giant Anak, so the genetics was found in someone's body after the Flood. How were there giants before Adam and Eve, if you deny those sons of God were created on the 6th day? Adam certainly did not procreate with angels prior to Eve.

When God shortened how long one could live from a thousand years to 120 years, He could have shortened their stature as well. We already have an explanation that Adam and Eve lost their permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and physically died. They were given bodies that were now corruptible and temporal. Even at that, they lived hundreds of years. Methuselah over 900 years.

You do realize that people born sinners can still live decent moral lives? They don't have to give in to sin and evil. When the sons of God became corrupted and took on sin natures, they became increasingly wicked with no moral boundaries at all. So much so, that Noah was the only righteous person found in his generation. That did not mean Methuselah was a wicked evil person. Or that the original sons of God became evil wicked people. It meant those in Noah's generation were all evil and wicked.

"These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

These people who needed destruction were Noah's generations. Noah lived 500 years, that covered multiple generations of other humans being born. There was not wide spread wickedness prior to Noah. It just got worse during those 500 years Noah lived before he had 3 sons.
 
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Timtofly

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Reading the book of Revelation in chronological order causes complete confusion of the book.

Revelation 12:2-11 (KJV) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

People who claim to know the "correct" chronological order of Revelation, because Revelation does not fit their eschatological bias, will find themselves at odds with all of God's Word.

Was Jesus born prior to the 7th Trumpet or after? How is that chronologically in the wrong order?

Sin entered creation, and death through sin when A&E disobeyed God.

Genesis 4:25-26 (KJV) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

If Cain had been a son of God he would not have been cast out from God's presence because he murdered his brother Abel. Only believers, as joint heirs with Christ are sons of God. The sons of God, like their parents in the garden took that which was forbidden because what they saw appealed to their fallen human appetites. As a result, they polluted the line that would lead to Christ. That's why God flooded the whole earth and killed every human except righteous Noah and his family, from whom the line to Christ would begin again. Not a pure, perfect or sinless lineage but the lineage that led to Christ none the less.

Luke 1:35 (KJV) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 (KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Cain was a son of God who killed Abel a son of God. Being a son of God does not prevent one from killing you. You don't magically avoid death. Being a son of God means there is no natural form of death and decay. Why do you think it is natural to murder another human? Murder is not natural, that is the opposite of natural. Cain did not disobey God directly. Cain did become a sinner, but had to leave Paradise for that reason, not because he murdered his brother and disobeyed a law. God told him sin was at the door, and don't let it in. The act of murder let sin in. Cain did not die like Adam and Eve died. But to distinguish him from other sons of God, God marked him so he would stand out and be noticed. He looked like every other son of God. He married a son of God, and had offspring. There is no evidence that Cain was in Adam's fallen image. So Cain and Abel were born prior to Adam's disobedience.

God told Eve that she would now have a different birth experience. So Cain and Abel were born in a different way than Seth was. When Adam and Eve were banned from Paradise, Cain and Abel were left as the family keepers of Paradise. Then Cain messed that up, by killing Abel, and being kicked out of Paradise as well.

Adam polluted the line. Do you not understand that the line was always polluted since Eve and Adam disobeyed?

The sons of God became polluted, because their offspring with Adam's descendants produced dead corruptible flesh with sin natures. Adam and Eve stopped being sons of God, and any offspring, even that mixed with other sons of God, does not change Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Good genetics do not fix bad genetics. The good genetics becomes corrupted. The only way out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, is when the soul leaves this dead body, and God gives the soul His permanent incorruptible physical body. That is not the future of those in Death or sheol, unless that soul is given an opportunity to repent and accept the Atonement. The first resurrection is physical when the soul is given God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and restored as a son of God into God's image.

We have a spiritual standing in Christ as a son of God, be we are not sons of God until the Second Coming or death happens and the soul enters that permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Enoch was the first of Adam's flesh to not experience the pain of death, but was translated (raptured) into Paradise. He never left Paradise. Paradise could have still been on earth at that point.

IMO he was sent back as Elijah, and probably more than once. He and Moses are the two olive branches as the 2 OT witnesses. There are also two candlesticks as 2 NT witnesses.

But the 24 elders are redeemed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are not the sons of God from God's council in Job. We are not told how many are in that group. The 24 probably represent 12 from the OT and 12 from the NT. The same as the 4 beasts, who are 2 who represent the OT, and 2 who represent the NT.
 
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Douggg

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Sexually different? Giants are not a sexual difference. If a giant procreated with a pygmy, that is not a sexual difference.
The giants were the children of the sons of God who had children with the daughters of men.
The sons of God were the giants.
No, the giants were the children of the sons of God who had children with the daughters of men.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 
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Timtofly

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The giants were the children of the sons of God who had children with the daughters of men.

No, the giants were the children of the sons of God who had children with the daughters of men.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
You are not saying what these verses say.

The giants were already on the earth. Remember no one died of the sons of God from natural causes. Only if they were killed on purpose. Lamech killed two sons of God.

Only Adam's flesh died of old age.

Your point is there were only giants after. No, they already existed.
 
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Douggg

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You are not saying what these verses say.

The giants were already on the earth.
Yes, I am saying what the verses say.

The "when" in that verse 4 means "as a result of when" the sons of God came in (to the world) and bare children to the daughters of men.

I will put it in a way that you can understand, in a baseball analogy. Many home runs were around in those days, "when" Babe Ruth stepped to the plate and smacked the ball beyond the fence.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The wayward angels were active with human woman - resulting in giant hybrids before the flood, and after the flood - which got nipped in the bud because they were rounded up and cast into prison until the day of judgment.
 
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rwb

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The wayward angels were active with human woman - resulting in giant hybrids before the flood, and after the flood - which got nipped in the bud because they were rounded up and cast into prison until the day of judgment.

Why did the wayward angels stop?
 
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oikonomia

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Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How did they get there?

I am of the opinion that 24 elders are the same saints who's graves were opened when Jesus gave up his spirit and died in Matthew 27:52-53.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

After Jesus ascended to heaven on the third day, the resurrected saints observed in Jerusalem by many, would have been translated into their everlasting incorruptible eternal bodies and called up to heaven to be the 24 elders that John saw when he was taken in the spirit to heaven in Revelation.
The 24 elders are the elders of CREATION.
They are not elders of the Christian church.
They are not elders of the nation of Israel.

Chapter four is all about the Creator and the elders are the elders of CREATION.


The 24 elders represent the ELDEST created beings of God - angels.
The government of the universe was under these most elder of all of God's created servants.
We do not need to know much about them except that FROM this class of most ancient angelic beings one - Satan, rebelled.
He was the leading one of this class.

I do not say one of the elders is Lucifer or Satan per se. I say in principle an ancient governing arch-angel was the Daystar.
From this "class" of very ancient angelic creations Satan arose.

The 24 elders around the throne of the Creator represent the elders of angelic beings.
We don't need to know too much more about them if we get this point imo.
 
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oikonomia

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I don't think angels present there needed to be redeemed.
I agree. And there is nothing in anything SAID throughout the book of Revelation BY the 24 elders which suggests they have a need to be redeemed.

They praise God with thanks for His power I believe.
And they are presently our servants - or ministering spirits serving of those who are to inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14).
These 24 elders rejoice when the sons of God, the glorified heirs of Christ's full salvation take over. They cast their crowns before the throne.


That is right about there prostrating themselves in worship to the Lamb. Universal WORSHIP of God and the Lamb is rendered by the angels too. And this even though they do not receive benefit of the redeeming acts of Christ.

"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen, And the elders fell down and worshipped. (Rev. 5:13,14)

Whether creatures in need of redemption of Christ or not, the entire created realm renders worship to the Triune God.

In 5:8 we read - "And He [the Lamb] came and took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints."

The footnote in the Recovery Version on this verse reads - "Which" here refers to the "bowls," not the "incense." The bowls are "the prayers of the saints" brought to God by the angelic elders (cf. 8:3-4), whereas the incense is Christ added to the saints' prayers."

Now it is the bowls which are the prayers of the saints and the incense is the fragrance of Christ going up with those prayers.

I agree that this is a good intepretation. It is Christ added to our prayers which makes them pleasing and acceptable to the Father.
The pleasing aroma of incense of Jesus. The prayers most effective before God are those with the aroma of saints living Christ.
Compare to Revelation 8:3,4.

"And another Angel [Christ] came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him that He should add it to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel [Christ here] before God."

A number of times in Revelation the "another Angel" is a symbol of Christ (7:2; 10:1; 18:1).


The Recovery Version based laregly on the NestleGreek text reads for me in 5:9 -

"And they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nations, (v.9)
And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth." (v.10)

Since "men"is in italics that indicates it is supplied by the editors or translators. And at least the Greek text from which they are working from says "have purchased for God out of every tribe". Probably the English version you are using has "us" supplied there.

"Them" in verse 10 of course is referring to whoever are the purchased ones in verse 9. I agree that the supplying of "men" (v.9) there would not insist that the 24 elders are the ones among "Them a kingdom of priests" in verse 10. But I can see one could understand it that way.

If the 24 elders are elders of the redeemed saints of the Christian church one would wonder WHY John himself is not among them.
Surely the Apostle John is an "elder" of all the redeemed Christians in the church who are to co-reign with the Lord. He was of the original 12 disciples. That is VERY elder for a Christian. Yet John is not among these 24 elders.


Other Englisdh versions which seem to concur with the RcV are
Berean Literal - You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
New King James
- Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

But the Literal Standard - "You purchased us to God in Your blood . . . "


The NASV supplies in italics "people" - You purchased people for God with Your blood . . .
The Amplified also supplies "people" - with Your blood You purchased people for God . . .


The Holman Christian Standard supplies no word - "by Your blood from every tribe . . ."
King James does have "us" as you indicated.
And I notice other renderings that favor that that is what should be understood there.


I'm running with the 24 elders praising the Redeemer as they well should, yet not themselves being the "them" in verse 10 purchased to be priests and kings in the kingdom.

If the "us" was in verse 9 wouldn't it be consistent to read "us" in verse 10 rather than "them"?
 
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Douggg

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I'm running with the 24 elders praising the Redeemer as they well should, yet not themselves being the "them" in verse 10 purchased to be priests and kings in the kingdom.

If the "us" was in verse 9 wouldn't it be consistent to read "us" in verse 10 rather than "them"?
It does say "us" in both verse 9 and verse 10 in the kjv.

Which would not apply to angels, but men.


9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
 
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oikonomia

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Yes. KJV does read "us."

I would submit in support of my view such notes as those indicating some MSS omit the "us."
[my underlining below]

Revelation 5 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com [compares]

King James Version
5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

American Standard Version
5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers [my underlining]
" . It is the great victory in suffering and death which inspires the song, and makes them sing, “Thou art worthy;” and so they speak of that work of Christ as a work truly done: “Thou didst buy (omit “us”) out of every tribe, &c., and didst make them,” &c. "

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. sung—Greek, "sing": it is their blessed occupation continually. The theme of redemption is ever new, ever suggesting fresh thoughts of praise, embodied in the "new song."
us to God—So manuscript B, Coptic, Vulgate, and Cyprian. But A omits "us": and Aleph reads instead, "to our God."

Vincent's Word Studies
They sing
Present tense, denoting the continuous, unceasing worship of heaven, or possibly, as describing their "office generally rather than the mere one particular case of its exercise" (Alford).

Redeem (ἠγόρασας)

Lit., purchase, as Rev. See John 4:8; John 6:5.

Us

Omit us and supply men, as Rev.

With Thy blood (ἐν τῷ αἵματί σου)
 
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oikonomia

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Even though we have no written testimony for physically living humans to corroborate this miracle, we do have evidence from Scripture of the firstfruits of the saints of Christ who had died before Christ's resurrection being raised as spiritual bodies to be as the Lord from heaven, heavenly, becoming the image of heavenly beings. They would have ascended to the holy city in heaven, New Jerusalem, and have been witnessed by ten thousand times ten thousand who are about the throne of God in heaven.
I would also concur that the 24 elders around rhe throne of the Creator do not represent raptured or glorified people.
The most ancient of the eldest beings in creation are the first angels God created. They also were vested with great authority.

The 24 elders are creation's elders - angelic beings. These elders of God's creation are seen there in chapter 4 before the ascension and arrival of Christ the freshy slain Lamb standing in the next chapter 5.

No saints of the church or saints of Israel should be pre-crowned before Christ is crowned. Any reigning upon the earth with Christ as priests and kings should be FOLLOWING Him rather than preceding Him. So who would be thought of as in some reigning authority before the ascension of Christ and His inauguration? Ancient angels would be the most elderly of all beings vested with such authority.

Chapter four is a window into the Creator and His purpose for creation, That purpose is yet sealed up and will not be fully discloseduntul the worthy Lion / Lamb Christ opens the receives the scroll of God's mystery in the next chapter 5.

But creation worships God knowing that it is all in existence because of His will. So chapter four closes with this -

" And when the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits upon the throne, andd they shall worship Him who lives forever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were and have been created." (vs. 10,11)

The universe and all things exist not only because of God's power, or His will power, but because of His will, His purpose, His plan, His eternal economy.
 
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oikonomia

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The "elders" are not the elders of the church, but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord Jesus accomplishes His second coming, they are sitting "on the thrones" already. This should be compared to Matthew 19:28; Rev. 20:4.

In God's creation angels are the most ancient ones. The elders among the angels would be elders of the whole creation of God.

Until the millennial kingdom these ruling elders administrate until the saints among human beings are assigned that administration.
The book of Daniel unveils the good administrating angels and their conflicts with the evil principalities and powers in the power struggle. Michael, for example is an arch-angel of the good and faithful type. And Lucifer or Satan is a fallen anointed cherub of the rebellious type.

Authority to rule the earth will be given to the saints redeemed by Christ and who are overcomers in the millennial kingdom.
(Hebrews 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4).

The elders are clothed in white garments indicating both that they are priests now and sinless. The angels do not require the redeeming blood of Christ as the fallen humanity does (Rev. 7:14).

They have "harps and golden bowls full of incense" (5:8) as a part of thier priesthood before God.
The prayers of the saints among humanity are offered up to God in a priestly manner.
Christ being the added incense which gives an acceptable fragrance of the saints' petitions and prayers to God.
 
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oikonomia

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Other features of Revelation 4,5:

The big pircture, the bird's eyeview of the whole Bible helps to see the meaning of Revelation chapters 4 and 5.

God's eternal purpose is to BUILD Himself and man together into a habitation of God. The destination of the 66 books of the Bible arrives at the New Jerusalem in the end.

First a short synapsis of this destination.
Then I will go back and related the major features of chapters 4 and 5 TO this distination of all of God's work.


This destination - New Jerusalem is too profound and has varied aspects, all of which are crucial.

1.) She is a city. That means a collective of people.

2.) She is a Wife and Bride. That means she came OUT of Christ and is brought back TO Christ to MATCH and MARRY Christ.

3.) She is a temple. This means she is a dwelling place of God Himself.

4. She is a tabernacle of God among human beings in the future new universe.

5.) She is a mountain. She stands as a governmental administration.

6.) She is the Holy of Holies. Her perfect cubic square dimensions replicate the holy of holies in the tabernacle and temple.
Here God and man meet for eternity.

7.) She is the enlargment of the church and the joining of the Jews and Gentiles. The names of the apostles of Christ are on her foundations. And the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are over her gates.

8.) She is a living entity, a composition of the divine life of God mingled with the redeemed and transformed human life of the saved.

That is enough for the purpose of seeing how Revelation 4 and 5 poised in bringing about this culmination of all God's work.
 
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Timtofly

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The "elders" are not the elders of the church, but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord Jesus accomplishes His second coming, they are sitting "on the thrones" already. This should be compared to Matthew 19:28; Rev. 20:4.

In God's creation angels are the most ancient ones. The elders among the angels would be elders of the whole creation of God.

Until the millennial kingdom these ruling elders administrate until the saints among human beings are assigned that administration.
The book of Daniel unveils the good administrating angels and their conflicts with the evil principalities and powers in the power struggle. Michael, for example is an arch-angel of the good and faithful type. And Lucifer or Satan is a fallen anointed cherub of the rebellious type.

Authority to rule the earth will be given to the saints redeemed by Christ and who are overcomers in the millennial kingdom.
(Hebrews 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4).

The elders are clothed in white garments indicating both that they are priests now and sinless. The angels do not require the redeeming blood of Christ as the fallen humanity does (Rev. 7:14).

They have "harps and golden bowls full of incense" (5:8) as a part of thier priesthood before God.
The prayers of the saints among humanity are offered up to God in a priestly manner.
Christ being the added incense which gives an acceptable fragrance of the saints' petitions and prayers to God.
The angels were only created 48 hours at the most, on the 4th day, before the sons of God were created on the 6th day.

They are as ancient as humans, not more ancient. Evening and morning define a single day, not an epoch of time. The creation week was a literal 6 days.

The Sabbath was a Day of the Lord, not an earth day.
 
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