The 24 elders in heaven, in Revelation 4:4

[oikonomia]

The Creator on the throne created the universe FOR the purpose of obtaining New Jerusalem.
This can be demonstrated by comparing Revelation 4:11 with Ephesians 1:4,5.

Revelation 4:11 - "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they wer, and were created."

Ephesians 1:4,5 - "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

Before God created the universe, before He laid the foundation of the world, He had in His heart a good pleasure. That was to have sons into which He would dispense His communicable attributes of life and nature, expression and glory but not His Godhead.

Based upon this plan to have sons He then created the universe. The strong implication of Ephesians 1:4 is that His plan PRECEDED His creating of the world. In other words, God created the universe FOR His will to have sons.

So we are not here by accident. The creation is not here without purpose. It exists because of God's plan. It is in existence not only because of His will power but because of His will - plan - pleasure of purpose which was in His heart "prior" to "the foundation of the world."

 

[oikonomia]

The angels were only created 48 hours at the most, on the 4th day, before the sons of God were created on the 6th day.

The elders among these angels pre-exist the creation of Adam.
While I would not insist no angel was created when you say, the important point is that before Adam they were created and vested with administrating authority.

From this "class" of most ancient beings one - the Anointed Cherub corrupted the perfect wisdom with which he was created from day one. Envying God he became Satan. No one can tell how long this corruption fermented and took place.

Those who believe in a few days from the fourth day of Genesis chapter one to the time shortly after Adam's creation of the sixth day, I think, assume naively. Such a cataclysmic opposition party actually challenging God HIMSELF (!) should have fermented over a far longer time.

With that time God is not that interested. So we know little (yet not nothing) about that pre-Adamic age.
But God preparing and making a world suitable for humanity over six days is still true if we have no idea how much time took place from "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen 1:1) and the commencement of the six days plus the Sabbath seventh day.

They are as ancient as humans, not more ancient. Evening and morning define a single day, not an epoch of time. The creation week was a literal 6 days.

If MADE and CREATE are totally synonomous thoughout the Bible, which they seem not to be, then God making the earth in six days does not insist that God created the universe in six days.

If God created the universe "In the beginning" and prepared it making it suitable for a new order of things for man, it is still true that in six days God MADE the heaven and the earth. (Exodus 20:11)

Something not pronouced as GOOD occurs among all the days of Geneses 1.
Where the pronoucement of God seeing what He just made was good is missing when it speaks of the firmament above the earth.

Day # 1 - God saw what He made was good (v. 4)

Day # 2 - Silence and no pronouncement of "it was good" for the firmament of the heaven immediately above the earth.

Day # 3 - God saw that the seas and the -vegatable life in seeds was good. (vs 10, 12)

Day # 4 - God saw that the fourth day light holders - sun, moon, stars the pronouncement that it was good (v.18)

Day # 5 - God saw the birds and living things in the waters He created were good (v.21)

Day # 6 - God saw the living creatures of the land were good (v.25) and all that He had made was very good (v.31)

Only on the day that the airy expanse where the left over fallen angels still roamed did God withhold the pronouncement that that arrangement was good. The pre-Adam rebels still existed with some freedom. Latter they marshalled forces to corrupt Adam with temptation.

From pre-Adam times there was the ruler of the authority of the air the spirit who deceived Eve and tempted Adam away from God's plan.
" . . . the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience;" (Eph. 2:2b)

Adam's mandate was to GUARD God's interests in His garden FROM these left over rebels. He failed. And those eveil spirits lingering still in the expanse around the earth even from Day #2 seized the opportunity to again oppose God and derail His kingdom, plan for humanity, and purpose for creation.

The Sabbath was a Day of the Lord, not an earth day.

I am not sure what you mean here.
I would say that "rest" here is not because of God's tiredness.
Rest indicates God's satisfaction that man in His image is assigned [edited] deputy authjority over His creation.

This is what causes God's pleasure and rest in the sense of His having accomplished (though short lived) an arrangement that pleases Him.

 

[Timtofly]

No one can tell how long this corruption fermented and took place.

Of course they can. The Sabbath was a Day of the Lord. Satan had to wait until the end of the first Day of the Lord, just like he will have to wait bound in the pit for the last Day of the Lord for humans to again multiply on the earth.

 

[oikonomia]

Of course they can. The Sabbath was a Day of the Lord. Satan had to wait until the end of the first Day of the Lord, just like he will have to wait bound in the pit for the last Day of the Lord for humans to again multiply on the earth.

So you are saying 24 hour days for the six days but the Sabbath 7th day is an epoch?

"And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (v.31) (of typical 24 hours)

Thus the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And on the seventh day (a long epoch) God finished His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which He had created and made." (2:1-3)

I am trying to understand your thought.
Are you saying you take the seventh day as an AGE yet not the previous six days as such ?

Are you saying 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + a long epoch ?

 

[Timtofly]

So you are saying 24 hour days for the six days but the Sabbath 7th day is an epoch?

"And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (v.31) (of typical 24 hours)

Thus the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And on the seventh day (a long epoch) God finished His work which He had done, amd He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which He had created and made." (2:1-3)

I am trying to understand your thought.
Are you saying you take the seventh day as an AGE yet not the previous six days as such ?

Are you saying 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + 24 hrs. + a long epoch ?

Genesis 2:1-6 describes the Sabbath as the Day of Adonai or Day of the Lord.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."

The generations of life happened after the 6th day. Generations is plural. The Day of the Lord is singular.

There was no death.

No seed fell to the ground and germinated. No new plants and trees. Nothing wild sprang up. No ground was ever tilled. Humans and all living life ate the seeds and fruit from the original plants and trees for 1,000 years, a Day of the Lord.

It was not until Adam disobeyed God, that sin and death happened. I think 30 years after the first 1,000 years and Satan took 30 years before Eve finally ate. I think Cain and Abel were born before that 30 years.

Abel was killed by Cain in the Garden, and was then kicked out like Adam and Eve. I think Seth was born 100 years, after Adam disobeyed. Isaiah 65 and the 100 year probation period.

Seth was born 130 years after Adam was placed in the Garden. The 4th Commandment was to Remember that Day of the Lord. No one Remembers that day, and many reject the last Day of the Lord, that will once more be without sin, Satan, and the decay of death. Once again Isaiah 65:21-22

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

People will live in the same house for the whole 1,000 years. They will eat of the original plants and trees the whole time. As they spread out across the earth the same will happen generation after generation.

I understand that may not sound as cool as all the mythology and imagined pre-human state of affairs, but it comes from God's Word, not some made up historical fiction.

 

[oikonomia]

Genesis 2:1-6 describes the Sabbath as the Day of Adonai or Day of the Lord.

I think the difference here is where the reader perceives an interval of time or an epoch in Genesis 1,2.
I explained an unspecified interval between verse 1 and verse 2 of chapter one. Some call this "Gap Theory."
I think you are understanding no gap between God created in the beginning and the commencement of six days.

Instead you say the epoch is on what is called the (non 24 hour) seventh day. "Genesis 2:1-6 describes the Sabbath as the Day of Adonai" essentailly a 1,000 some year epoch of God's rest.

I notice some dear saints who are suspicious of a pre-Adam epoch yet seem to move such a thing elsewhere in the account. In your case the seventh day is an epoch much exceeding the 24 hour days of the previous six.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

And you are saying that this "seventh day" in Genesis 2:2,3 means a seventh "Day Age" of its own sort - an epoch, something like 1,000 years.

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."

The generations of life happened after the 6th day. Generations is plural. The Day of the Lord is singular.

There was no death.

The matter of no death before the sin of Adam, I think and teach, should probably be related to man.
"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed onto all men because all have sinned." (Romans 5:12). I do not think "death passed on to all men" means all living organisms.

How would you feel about Noah, before the flood, coating the ark with a petroleum product - pitch? It was already in the earth before the flood. If dead vegetation and not resin from trees (as some reason) that would indicate pre-Adam death.
"Make yourself an ark of gopher wood . . . make rooms in the ark and cover it with pitch." (Gen. 6:14) Compare Gen. 14:10.

Death of something not man, is indicated in the earth.
And sin in the fallen spirits in the air, I would submit, is there from Genesis 1 Day #2 when the pronoucement of "it was good" is conspicuously absent. Every other day of the six God voices what He sees is good.

Ephesians 6:12 - "For our wrestling . . . against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies."
These renegade rulers - Satan and the fallen angels "in the heavenlies" and following "the ruler of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2)
had no influence over the new creation Adam. Adam's failure to guard (especially against the lying serpent) caused that dominion ordained to Adam to be lost. But they were there in the air, no doubt waiting for an opportunity to destroy God's plans again.

Genesis 2 is a creation account from another angle. Neither chapter one or two is an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God did everything to create our world. From Genesis 2:4 I teach God's creating is being told with a different emphasis, an additional important angle.

Harmonizing the two accounts 100% I do not attempt.
It should be obvious that God didn't care that from it is left not totally clear WHEN animals were made before or after the creation of man.
What the two accounts DO have in common (which I think is a major point) is that the whole biosphere is for man, under man's naming, supervision, mandate to be the pinnacle of creation - its crowning presence.

I do not try exhaustively to harmonize all aspects of the two sections of revelation.
The first account is of God making man in His image for dominion.
The second account is focus on HOW man can fulfill all this, by taking in the life of God signified by the tree of life.
From chapter two we also get a window into God's heart in preparing a Wife for Himself as the climax of history in Revelation 21,22.

No seed fell to the ground and germinated. No new plants and trees. Nothing wild sprang up. No ground was ever tilled. Humans and all living life ate the seeds and fruit from the original plants and trees for 1,000 years, a Day of the Lord.

It was not until Adam disobeyed God, that sin and death happened.

When Paul says that sin entered into the world, there must be some paramaters on "world."
It should not mean that there was no sin in existence in ANY sense in ANY world.

For the serpent to lie, slander God, and twist God's words enticing created man to rebel was sin. And he was judged. "And Jehovah said to the serpent, Because you have done THIS . . . etc. etc." (Genesis 3:14a)

So sin coming into the world as Paul explains need not mean sin came into the universe in every sense only after Adam's disobedience. I would teach there is room and perhaps evidence for pre-Adam sin and death. Guarding God's interests against its resurgence was the mandate of the new creature - Adam.

I think 30 years after the first 1,000 years and Satan took 30 years before Eve finally ate. I think Cain and Abel were born before that 30 years.

Abel was killed by Cain in the Garden, and was then kicked out like Adam and Eve. I think Seth was born 100 years, after Adam disobeyed. Isaiah 65 and the 100 year probation period.

This is problematic as I see it. Cain and Abel's problems between them is POST the expulsion of their parents from the guarden.
It is true that "Cain went forth from the presence of the Lord" (Gen. 4:16). But this is a further alienation of sinners from God.

There is a series of "falls" of humans down from God fellowship really, not just one. The first though is the main "fall".

If I understand you correctly, I have to view the expulsion of the parents of Cain and Abel to be NOT prior to the murder of Cain as Genesis 3:24 shows. I think you are saying this first expulsion of humanity from Eden occurs for humans afterwards when Cain murders Abel.

But Abel's raising of cattle was not for food as I see it. It was for clothing and sacrifice according to what he had learned was a way to approach the God who had created them. Perhaps milk was obtained from the livestock raised by Abel with clothing. But indications are WORSHIP was a main purpose for Abel devoting his life to the raising of the animals.

"And Abel brought an offering from the firstlings of his flock, that is, from their fat portions. And Jehovah had regard for Abel and his offering." (Gen. 4:4)

This young man, the brother of elder Cain, was an unusually devoted man loving to approach God. What he and Cain had learned was from the testimony of their parents. That is how God slew an animal that they be clothed.

G.H. Pember may have had a point that they came before the entrance of Eden to worship by sacrifice perhaps. I would not be too insistent on it. But the recovery of their lost blessing and how to appease God's estrangement I think was with Adam and his descendents. Albeit it became pollutted and corrupted in different kinds of demon appeasing sacrifices as man slide further and further away from God.

Seth was born 130 years after Adam was placed in the Garden. The 4th Commandment was to Remember that Day of the Lord. No one Remembers that day, and many reject the last Day of the Lord, that will once more be without sin, Satan, and the decay of death. Once again Isaiah 65:21-22

Here again I perceive your view that the seventh day should be taken as an epoch.
Twenty four hour six days you see, plus an epoch or "Day Age" of its own.

Some support for a Sabbath Age as a "Day" to remember you do offer from the Bible. I got it.
I think the seventh day, for all practical understandings, should be viewed as another like the six 24 hour days of reformation and creation as in chapter one.

Having said that, of course the meaning of Sabbath is wide ranging. Resting in God is a very wide ranging matter.

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

People will live in the same house for the whole 1,000 years. They will eat of the original plants and trees the whole time. As they spread out across the earth the same will happen generation after generation.

I understand that may not sound as cool as all the mythology and imagined pre-human state of affairs, but it comes from God's Word, not some made up historical fiction.

I am not concerned with what is "cool" now. I am concerned with the whole revelation of the Bible.
And these matters of beginnings are not all in one place.
We get a glimpse into Satan's history (as much as God deems necessary for us to know) in Ezekiel and in Isaiah.
Both Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are after Genesis. And both contain revelation about the "prophetic past" - pre-Adam I would say.

Thinking of the Anointed Cherub's Eden in Ezekiel 28 and Adam's Eden in Genesis 2 as synonomous doesn't make sense to many.
The principle of a Eden of God is the same. That of the Anointed Cherub's and that of Adam are not simultaneous. The prior surely preceded the latter - the fall of the Anointed Cherub from an Eden happened before the fall of Adam from the Eden assigned to man.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What about Lazarus? Jesus raised him from the dead before He Himself rose from the dead. And if Lazarus never died again following that, that would mean Lazarus was the first one to rise unto bodily immortality, not Jesus. Can't see that being logical.

Scripture never says that Christ would be the first one who would rise with bodily immortality. It only says that Christ would be the "First-begotten", and the "Firstborn". This is different than just being bodily resurrected to immortality. Christ becoming the "First-born" happened with the resurrected Christ's ascension to God and to His throne on His resurrection day. No man had ever yet ascended to heaven in a resurrected, glorified human body until Christ did this first.

That is the meaning behind Psalms 2:7 when God would say to the resurrected Son standing in front of Him, "THIS DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee". This was written about the resurrected Christ standing before His Father in heaven on His resurrection day, as Paul interpreted this passage in Acts 13:33-34. By doing this, Christ opened up the way for all His siblings to later follow Him and to share the same intimate face-to-face fellowship with God. That is what the emphasis on the "First-born" symbolism in the OT was about.

It is not just enough for a dead believer to be raised out of the dust of the grave and given immortality. Our salvation inheritance is not finally complete until we are face-to-face with our Creator in His presence in a body that has been changed and made incorruptible. THAT is what made Christ totally unique of all that were ever raised from the grave either before, during, or after His ministry on earth. NONE of those other examples of resurrected ones could ascend to heaven before Christ did this first and "opened the matrix" for the believers to follow.

 

[Timtofly]

I think the difference here is where the reader perceives an interval of time or an epoch in Genesis 1,2.
I explained an unspecified interval between verse 1 and verse 2 of chapter one. Some call this "Gap Theory."
I think you are understanding no gap between God created in the beginning and the commencement of six days.

Instead you say the epoch is on what is called the (non 24 hour) seventh day. "Genesis 2:1-6 describes the Sabbath as the Day of Adonai" essentailly a 1,000 some year epoch of God's rest.

I notice some dear saints who are suspicious of a pre-Adam epoch yet seem to move such a thing elsewhere in the account. In your case the seventh day is an epoch much exceeding the 24 hour days of the previous six.

And you are saying that this "seventh day" in Genesis 2:2,3 means a seventh "Day Age" of its own sort - an epoch, something like 1,000 years.


The matter of no death before the sin of Adam, I think and teach, should probably be related to man.
"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed onto all men because all have sinned." (Romans 5:12). I do not think "death passed on to all men" means all living organisms.

How would you feel about Noah, before the flood, coating the ark with a petroleum product - pitch? It was already in the earth before the flood. If dead vegetation and not resin from trees (as some reason) that would indicate pre-Adam death.
"Make yourself an ark of gopher wood . . . make rooms in the ark and cover it with pitch." (Gen. 6:14) Compare Gen. 14:10.

Death of something not man, is indicated in the earth.
And sin in the fallen spirits in the air, I would submit, is there from Genesis 1 Day #2 when the pronoucement of "it was good" is conspicuously absent. Every other day of the six God voices what He sees is good.

Ephesians 6:12 - "For our wrestling . . . against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies."
These renegade rulers - Satan and the fallen angels "in the heavenlies" and following "the ruler of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2)
had no influence over the new creation Adam. Adam's failure to guard (especially against the lying serpent) caused that dominion ordained to Adam to be lost. But they were there in the air, no doubt waiting for an opportunity to destroy God's plans again.

Genesis 2 is a creation account from another angle. Neither chapter one or two is an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God did everything to create our world. From Genesis 2:4 I teach God's creating is being told with a different emphasis, an additional important angle.

Harmonizing the two accounts 100% I do not attempt.
It should be obvious that God didn't care that from it is left not totally clear WHEN animals were made before or after the creation of man.
What the two accounts DO have in common (which I think is a major point) is that the whole biosphere is for man, under man's naming, supervision, mandate to be the pinnacle of creation - its crowning presence.

I do not try exhaustively to harmonize all aspects of the two sections of revelation.
The first account is of God making man in His image for dominion.
The second account is focus on HOW man can fulfill all this, by taking in the life of God signified by the tree of life.
From chapter two we also get a window into God's heart in preparing a Wife for Himself as the climax of history in Revelation 21,22.



When Paul says that sin entered into the world, there must be some paramaters on "world."
It should not mean that there was no sin in existence in ANY sense in ANY world.

For the serpent to lie, slander God, and twist God's words enticing created man to rebel was sin. And he was judged. "And Jehovah said to the serpent, Because you have done THIS . . . etc. etc." (Genesis 3:14a)

So sin coming into the world as Paul explains need not mean sin came into the universe in every sense only after Adam's disobedience. I would teach there is room and perhaps evidence for pre-Adam sin and death. Guarding God's interests against its resurgence was the mandate of the new creature - Adam.


This is problematic as I see it. Cain and Abel's problems between them is POST the expulsion of their parents from the guarden.
It is true that "Cain went forth from the presence of the Lord" (Gen. 4:16). But this is a further alienation of sinners from God.

There is a series of "falls" of humans down from God fellowship really, not just one. The first though is the main "fall".

If I understand you correctly, I have to view the expulsion of the parents of Cain and Abel to be NOT prior to the murder of Cain as Genesis 3:24 shows. I think you are saying this first expulsion of humanity from Eden occurs for humans afterwards when Cain murders Abel.

But Abel's raising of cattle was not for food as I see it. It was for clothing and sacrifice according to what he had learned was a way to approach the God who had created them. Perhaps milk was obtained from the livestock raised by Abel with clothing. But indications are WORSHIP was a main purpose for Abel devoting his life to the raising of the animals.

"And Abel brought an offering from the firstlings of his flock, that is, from their fat portions. And Jehovah had regard for Abel and his offering." (Gen. 4:4)

This young man, the brother of elder Cain, was an unusually devoted man loving to approach God. What he and Cain had learned was from the testimony of their parents. That is how God slew an animal that they be clothed.

G.H. Pember may have had a point that they came before the entrance of Eden to worship by sacrifice perhaps. I would not be too insistent on it. But the recovery of their lost blessing and how to appease God's estrangement I think was with Adam and his descendents. Albeit it became pollutted and corrupted in different kinds of demon appeasing sacrifices as man slide further and further away from God.


Here again I perceive your view that the seventh day should be taken as an epoch.
Twenty four hour six days you see, plus an epoch or "Day Age" of its own.

Some support for a Sabbath Age as a "Day" to remember you do offer from the Bible. I got it.
I think the seventh day, for all practical understandings, should be viewed as another like the six 24 hour days of reformation and creation as in chapter one.

Having said that, of course the meaning of Sabbath is wide ranging. Resting in God is a very wide ranging matter.

I am not concerned with what is "cool" now. I am concerned with the whole revelation of the Bible.
And these matters of beginnings are not all in one place.
We get a glimpse into Satan's history (as much as God deems necessary for us to know) in Ezekiel and in Isaiah.
Both Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are after Genesis. And both contain revelation about the "prophetic past" - pre-Adam I would say.

Thinking of the Anointed Cherub's Eden in Ezekiel 28 and Adam's Eden in Genesis 2 as synonomous doesn't make sense to many.
The principle of a Eden of God is the same. That of the Anointed Cherub's and that of Adam are not simultaneous. The prior surely preceded the latter - the fall of the Anointed Cherub from an Eden happened before the fall of Adam from the Eden assigned to man.

Scripture is clear on God's timing.

You as a human insert your own opinion, going against Scripture.

Genesis 2 is not a second creation account from a different angle.

Genesis 2 is the Sabbath Day of the Lord.

Adam is placed in the Garden 1,000 years after he was created on the 6th day.

The Garden was planted 1,000 years later as well.

 

[oikonomia]

Scripture is clear on God's timing.

You as a human insert your own opinion, going against Scripture.

O, If that's the way you feel about it!
Pardon me though, if I continue conversing a bit more with some others on the subject.

Thanks for your carefully considered thoughts.
Let it not be too divisive a matter between brothers in Christ.
Jesus is Lord.

Genesis 2 is not a second creation account from a different angle.

Genesis 2 is the Sabbath Day of the Lord.

Adam is placed in the Garden 1,000 years after he was created on the 6th day.

The Garden was planted 1,000 years later as well.

No disrespect is meant if you see me pursue some more what I developed with others.
Maybe, I'll return to you sometime to talk more about the Sabbath.

The Lord be with your spirit Timtofly.

 

[oikonomia]

So Satan came as an rebellious former arch-angel along with the other [angelic] "sons of God" accusing Job and slandering God in the book of Job.

"Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themsevles before Jehovah, Satan also came among them." (Job 1:6)
And again he showed with the angels.
Then one day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, Satan also came among them to present himself before Jehovah." (Job 2:1)

This was not Satan coming along with decendents of godly Seth or human beings. These "sons of God" were angels.
Latter in Job 38:4-7 it shows that these "sons of God" are the angels there in the dawn of creation observing God making the earth.

God says to Job -
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who set its measurements - if you know?
Or who who stretched the measuring line over it?
Onto what were its bases sunk,
Or who kaid its cornerstone.

When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7)

Man is not that ancient. But the angels were there observing God preparing the earth in creation.
This establishes the ELDEST created beings are angels (Rev. 4:4) - both the good and the bad.
The Anointed Cherub who became Satan was good and became the leading bad one.

 

[oikonomia]

Satan and those who followed his pre-adamic rebellion were deprived of their former dominion.
But God did not destroy them all. God would not unilaterally defeat this rebe creature.
God would create a triangular situation where another creature will harmonize with God's will to execute Satan.

God would not alone and unilaterally deal with Satan. It was God's way that He would create man.
And placing man in between Himself as a choice and Satan as a choice, through man's cooperation God would execute the judged Satan.

Judgment was passed on the arch-angel. But total execution was not.
God would not stoop to destroy His advasary without another creature siding with God's will.
That being was the created man.

But in the atmosphere of the upper earth Satan and the fallen angels, seething with revenge and resentment, sought opportunity to waylay this new dusty creation of man. Psalm 8 shows that man was created for the purpose of stilling the avenger and co-dealing with God against the advsaries of God.

"O Jehovah our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth.
You who hace set Your glory over the heavens!
Out of the mouths is babes and sucklings You have established strength
Because of Your adversaries,
To stop the enemy and the avenger." (Psalm 8:1-2)

The advasaries and the avenger and the enemy are Satan, his fallen angels and the demons.
Even the baby human beings - "out of the mouth of babes and sucklings" had the purpose of being in God's image and reigning over God's dominion. God made to establish strength following the . Image and dominion God created man including the purpose to guard God's interests and still the vengeful predessesors who reigned before the creation of Adam.

 

[oikonomia]

Adam is placed in the Garden 1,000 years after he was created on the 6th day.

The Garden was planted 1,000 years later as well.

Its been quiet here. So I am going to ask you to explain something you believe.
If you're confident that you are not inserting human opinion but have grasped the clear history -
Genesis 1:27 says on the 6th day God created them male and female.

"And God created man in His own image;
In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

You say it was 1,000 years LATTER that God placed Adam in the garden.
But it was only after Adam was in the garden did God bring forth from Adam a rib to build a woman. (Gen. 2:20-25)
So according to your own explanation "male and female" for man did not exist until after 1,000 years from day #6.

Explain which do you believe:
On the 6th day in Gen. 1 God made them "male and female."
Or 1,000 years latter in Gen. 2 in the garden of Eden God made them "male and female."

 

[Timtofly]

Its been quiet here. So I am going to ask you to explain something you believe.
If you're confident that you are not inserting human opinion but have grasped the clear history -
Genesis 1:27 says on the 6th day God created them male and female.

"And God created man in His own image;
In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

You say it was 1,000 years LATTER that God placed Adam in the garden.
But it was only after Adam was in the garden did God bring forth from Adam a rib to build a woman. (Gen. 2:20-25)
So according to your own explanation "male and female" for man did not exist until after 1,000 years from day #6.

Explain which do you believe:
On the 6th day in Gen. 1 God made them "male and female."
Or 1,000 years latter in Gen. 2 in the garden of Eden God made them "male and female."

The sons of God were the them, male and female. They multiplied on the earth for 1,000 years. Don't know the specific details, because the sons of God were not the only thing being discussed.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

There is nothing in these verses indicating that only one individual was created on day 6. Not even a male and a female.

There is one phrase "created he him" that many base their argument on. But no where does it indicate God said He wanted to create a man, singular. Nor are there names or titles like mankind, angels, Adam, Eve, nor sons of God. Yes it seems the Hebrew word Adam means man or human (kind). Adam was named after he was placed in the Garden and named the animals.

"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

We don't even have to assume that Adam and those particular animals were created after the Garden. They were not given names until after Adam was placed in the Garden. Was it strange that everything went nameless for 1,000 years? Probably to some thinking merely on a scientific mindset. But what are names for anyways? They are based on actions or ability. Adam was the father of all sinful flesh, which we can call humanity. But before Adam disobeyed God, he was the representative of the sons of God, as he was singled out and separated from the rest of the sons of God. He was put in charge of this Garden and especially the two named trees placed in this Garden.

Adam was only alone after being placed in the Garden by himself. There is no reason why the rest of those humans created on the 6th day had not populated a huge amount of land for 1,000 years. It says there were even giants born in those 1,000 years.

"There were giants in the earth in those days (the 1,000 years of the Lord's Day); and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men."

You ask a difficult question. Were the sons of God divided as different sexes? Or was that only after Eve was taken from Adam? The strong indication is that sons of God are both male and female. But Adam after being separated, and God realizing that a son of God alone by himself was not working out, is when God divided the male and female parts to make 2 unique individuals at that point. How the sons of God multiplied is the unanswered portion of Genesis. Why were there giants as well?

Jesus also pointed out that sons of God as restored individuals could no longer procreate at all, but were now like the angels who never procreated at all. God created a finite amount on the 4th day, and that would be all that would ever exist.

But the sons of God were told to multiply and be fruitful. Certainly carrying a baby to term is not the exact thing as a tree that uses fruit to reproduce. Why was there no difficulty when giving birth? When it came to Adam and Eve there was division, a dividing. How did one being multiply? There was a copy made from one being making 2 beings. Then 2 beings each had a copy, allowing 4 beings. But God did not just start out with one or two, but hundreds. But even if God started out with only Adam, Adam would have multiplied to two Adams, then 4 Adams, then 8 Adams, then 16, and so on. But all Adam's were male and female in one being. Up to the point in the Garden the first Adam was not multiplied, but divided into 2 parts of one original being. Obviously the original copies could produce giants, or compared to Adam's dead corruptible flesh, they were originally created as giants. Adam physically died. His soul went from a permanent incorruptible physical body, to a corruptible temporal body, that would eventually decay and die. Redemption and restoration is the reversal of what happened to Adam.

 

[oikonomia]

The sons of God were the them, male and female. They multiplied on the earth for 1,000 years. Don't know the specific details, because the sons of God were not the only thing being discussed.

Okay. These things take time. Sometimes a long to decide how one wants to understand not so easy portions of the Bible.

I think the oldest written book in the Bible should be Job. In Job "the sons of God" I think is best understood as angels (Job 38:7).
Angels were there singing as the "morning stars" and "the sons of God" witnessing with celebration the creation of the planet.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? . . . who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" As in the heavenly council's gathering in Job 1:6 and 2:1 Satan coming in with the "sons of God" should mean Satan comes along with the [other] angels.

Granted, that Luke says Adam the first man created was the son of God (Luke 3:38) it does not say all of his descendents were "sons of God." Rather the rhythm strongly suggests that because NO human father precedes Adam as is the case of everyone else, He is called "the ____ of God," The word "son" being supplied by translators quite logically.

"The son of Mathuselah, . . . the son of Maeleel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." (Luke 3:37,38)

For Luke the term "the son of God" means the first man directly created by God prior to ANY natural forefather.
For Job (written far before) "the sons of God" are angels not human descendents of Adam.

What about Genesis? I would advize all to take "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2,4) to agree with Job - angels.
The Nephilim which were in the earth in those days were "fallen ones" some or all of which were giants.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them: these are the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown." (Gen. 6:4)

The pantheon of gods like Mercury, Zeus, Hercules, etc. etc, most likely have thier mythological backgrond from ancient times based upon the abominable and exceedingly sinful union of rebellious angelic "sons of God" and human beings -
"the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown."

Please do not ask me HOW this could happen. I do not know HOW.
I do know that we cannot underestimate the evil of the deepest occult activity of Satan.
The Egyptian magicians imitated divine miracles with their own darkest arts.
The ability to do so probably was accompanied by extra-ordinary consecration of themselves to the demonic and the Satanic.

I cannot tell you how angels (who sometimes appear as men in the OT,) could produce Nephilim from intercourse with human women.
The bottom line is SOME angels of exceedingly GREATER mischivousness (for which they were expecially confined and punished) did this to derange God's creation.

I don't believe "the sons of God" in Genesis 6 are godly human descendents of Adam who took daughters of men.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

There is nothing in these verses indicating that only one individual was created on day 6. Not even a male and a female.

But when it says "So God created . . . " it means on THAT day this is what He did.
And the "So God created . . . " resulted in human male and female - on THAT sixth day.

There is one phrase "created he him" that many base their argument on. But no where does it indicate God said He wanted to create a man, singular. Nor are there names or titles like mankind, angels, Adam, Eve, nor sons of God. Yes it seems the Hebrew word Adam means man or human (kind). Adam was named after he was placed in the Garden and named the animals.

What are you going to say when it is pointed out that Eve was "the mother of all living" (Genesis 2:20)?
"And the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

You are asking me to believe that there were living people for 1,000 years BEFORE Eve was pronounced "the mother of all living." [humans no doubt]

We don't even have to assume that Adam and those particular animals were created after the Garden. They were not given names until after Adam was placed in the Garden.

Now if ypu say this, I think you inch a little closer to what I said before, to which you objected.
I said that the second account is from a different perspective.

Was it strange that everything went nameless for 1,000 years? Probably to some thinking merely on a scientific mindset. But what are names for anyways? They are based on actions or ability. Adam was the father of all sinful flesh, which we can call humanity. But before Adam disobeyed God, he was the representative of the sons of God, as he was singled out and separated from the rest of the sons of God. He was put in charge of this Garden and especially the two named trees placed in this Garden.

Luke tracing the history of eariest human beings says "Adam, the son of God."
Does nothing to imply that OTHERS in that geneology were "sons of God" in that way Adam was.
Adam's being such a "son" is unique - one of a kind (until the incarnation of Christ).

It is I think more of a biblical matter than a scientific theories matter.
What does the revelation of God's word SAY? God knows all the facts.

You're proposeing reproducing humans before Eve became "the mother of all living" for 1,000 years.
Now you have to speculate mightily to uphold a pre-garden, pre-universal mother and father of all men reproducing.

Adam was only alone after being placed in the Garden by himself. There is no reason why the rest of those humans created on the 6th day had not populated a huge amount of land for 1,000 years. It says there were even giants born in those 1,000 years.

There were Nephilim [fallen ones] in the earth "in those days" (Gen. 6:4 Recovery Version)
"Those days" simply meaning before the flood of Noah and for some time afterwards as well.

I am not sure where you get the confidence to know "in those days" has to be days before Adam was placed in the garden.
The flow of history is from Adam and Eve, his wife, "the mother of all living."

What in the account gives you the idea that the writer is reverting back to days BEFORE Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?
The previous chapter five moves time forward FROM Adam and the named descendents.
Genesis 5:2 - "Male and female He created them, (comp. Genesis 1:27), and He blessed them and called thier name Adam, on the day when they were created."

Time flows forward from generation to generation of people being born and significantly dying up to verse 32 - "And Noah was five hundred years old. And Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth." You are asking me to ignore the apparent flow of time and sequence and assume "in those days" is during a prevous epoch, after the 6th day and before Adam and Eve are in the garden.

"There were giants in the earth in those days (the 1,000 years of the Lord's Day); and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men."

You ask a difficult question.

I appreciate that. And you'll find with me that "I cannot answer that at this time" I take as a honest and legitimate answer.
And I use such an explanation myself. Ie. "That question at this time I cannot answer well. Perhaps latter I can."

We're searching for the truth, as much as we can gather.

Were the sons of God divided as different sexes?

Everything we know from experience and from human history suggests that the command "Be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28) SHOULD have to do with having babies the typical way.

Or was that only after Eve was taken from Adam?

After the first WIFE and MOTHER of all living came into existence.
Adam and Eve were the first family.

Reproducing humans asexually before that is too wild a speculation for me.

The strong indication is that sons of God are both male and female. But Adam after being separated, and God realizing that a son of God alone by himself was not working out, is when God divided the male and female parts to make 2 unique individuals at that point. How the sons of God multiplied is the unanswered portion of Genesis. Why were there giants as well?

I would recommend you reconsider that for 1,000 years before Adam and Eve, "sons of God" asexually reproduced.
And from this group Adam (whom the Bible identifies as "the first man" (Rom. 5:45,47) was separated to begin sexual reproduction.

What would scientific discovery say about this?
Science is man's invention.
The Bible is God's revelation.
Since God knows all the facts, if there is a descrpency the error must be with man's invention.
Of course we should be careful to ascentain what the revelation actually SAYS if we can.

My opinion is that we are seeing not the evidence of evolved humans but probably devolved ones.

Jesus also pointed out that sons of God as restored individuals could no longer procreate at all, but were now like the angels who never procreated at all. God created a finite amount on the 4th day, and that would be all that would ever exist.

Again, the sons of God (these morning stars) in Job 38:7 existed at the foundation of the earth was being prepared. It is not on the fourth day they were created.

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? . . . When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God sang together?"

I cannot prove this singing and existence commenced only on Day #4. But it reads to me that "In the beginning" (Gen. 1:1) before the seer sees waste and void and darkness over the face of the waters before the middle of the week is what I should understand.

. . .
But all Adam's were male and female in one being. Up to the point in the Garden the first Adam was not multiplied, but divided into 2 parts of one original being. Obviously the original copies could produce giants, or compared to Adam's dead corruptible flesh, they were originally created as giants. Adam physically died. His soul went from a permanent incorruptible physical body, to a corruptible temporal body, that would eventually decay and die. Redemption and restoration is the reversal of what happened to Adam.

I'll have to continue latter.
Thanks for the time you put in for your explanations. I didn't quote everything.
The Lord be with your spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

I think the oldest written book in the Bible should be Job. In Job "the sons of God" I think is best understood as angels (Job 38:7).
Angels were there singing as the "morning stars" and "the sons of God" witnessing with celebration the creation of the planet.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? . . . who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" As in the heavenly council's gathering in Job 1:6 and 2:1 Satan coming in with the "sons of God" should mean

Job 38:7 is not saying the angels and the angels.

It is declaring the angels and humans. Both were created at the same time, in the same 6 day period.

The stars are the angels. The sons of God are the humans.

 

[Timtofly]

After the first WIFE and MOTHER of all living came into existence.
Adam and Eve were the first family.

Reproducing humans asexually before that is too wild a speculation for me.

Eve was the mother of all the dead sinners. After the Flood, only sinners were on the earth.

You are saying Eve was taken out of Adam much later, but went back in time and as a sinner gave birth to the rest of the humans on the 6th day.

Adam made that claim after he disobeyed God. Why was that not a claim before they disobeyed God? Now that Adam was a sinner, you take his sinful words over the Word of God?

I am saying I don't know how the sons of God multiplied. But you cannot force angels to procreate when they are not even sexual, but the stars in the sky shining as bright lights.

They only appear as men. No verse claims they literally become human. Even if they could take on the form of a son of God, that proves my point that they stopped being an angel, and became sons of God. But no verse claims angels stopped being angels and became sons of God. And sons of God are not angels and never were angels. Nor do they become angels. The verse in the Gospels says they are only like the angels and no longer procreate, which is the very opposite of you claiming angels can procreate.

Once again sons of God were always human and were never angels ever, not even in Job. Those sons of God in Job were those created on the 6th day, minus Adam who was a dead sinner. It was the offspring of those original sons of God, that became rebels, and it was the offspring of rebel sons of God, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh that became even more wicked, than even Adam and Eve. And Eve would have still been the mother of these wicked people through her daughters.

Now some say Satan took over Adam's place of authority. But that makes no sense. After the Flood Satan was allowed to walk freely on earth and in heaven. His angels had already been bound in the pit. But God never granted Satan power over the earth. That would only happen if humans gave Satan their allegiance, and let him control them.

Asexual means no sex. The sons of God would have 2 sexes, not no sexes. Even trees have individual sexes. Birds have individual sexes. Hermaphrodite organisms are animals that have both male and female reproductive organs. Worms, snails, and some fish. This is no indication that angels are created this way. Since angels are stars, and obviously stars don't have sexual organs at all. Science calls them huge bodies of gas. Scripture states ministering air/gas. The literal term for pneuma, having to do with air and gases. And when the rebel angels left the firmament, they did not, nor could not change how they were created.

 

[oikonomia]

Eve was the mother of all the dead sinners. After the Flood, only sinners were on the earth.

What Genesis 3:20 says is " . . . she was the mother of all living."

You can't say "dead sinners" only came out of Eve, but the "living" sinless humans who were not subject to death existed before her.
Can you name one of these pre-Eve non-sinners?

Before the Flood sinful men were growing more and more sinful.
"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil contiunally." (Gen. 6:5)

Some age of non-sinful human beings asexually reproducing prior to Eve the mother of all living, is nowhere in Scripture.
And BEFORE the Flood the downward degradation of sin ravaged society marches ever towards judgment.

Leading up to the Flood: "And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth. And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. And now I am about to destroy them with the earth." (Gen. 6:12,13)

Have you not invented 6th Day a non-sinful, not subject to sin and death, un-dead population for a millennia before Adam and Eve?
The space of time before Adam and his wife disobeyed God, I admit, is unknown.
I see no reason for saying men (bi-sexual) somehow reproduced until one was selected from them to be Adam and Eve in the garden.

Genesis chapter one mentions nothing about failure, sin, or death. That is not its purpose.
Genesis chapter two re-visits the creation of man with a particular focus needed to understand the whole rest of the Bible.

HOW will man fulfill God's plan that he express the image and dominion of God over God's creation?
He must CHOOSE to take in the life of God as signified by "the tree of life."

Failing to do so and being sidetracked by God's enemy the entire race of human beings, through Adam, was joined to Satan and the nature of sin. This sin can only progress downward into further and further degradation.

"But death reigned from Adam until Moses . . . " (Romans 5:14a)
Adam is "the first man." (1 Cor.15:45, 47)

You are saying Eve was taken out of Adam much later, but went back in time and as a sinner gave birth to the rest of the humans on the 6th day.

No, I am not. There is no going back in time to be a mother of all living. There is only going forward in time from Eve for her to be the mother of all living. This is not the mother of some living or the mother of all living AFTER Eden.

Adam made that claim after he disobeyed God. Why was that not a claim before they disobeyed God? Now that Adam was a sinner, you take his sinful words over the Word of God?

Adam made the claim "LIVING!" probably because he was expecting that he and his wife were to stop breathing immediately.
The reaction of calling Eve the mother of all living was good news. Though eventually he would grow old and physically die, he perceived God's mercy. They BEGAN to die. But they did not until long after they produced children.

The killing of the cattle and the clothing of their nakedness (for which they were now (edited) ashamed) all spoke of God's mercy in spite of the edict that they would die. They were the first to receive the gospel message. And in joy that there WAS some hope of vindication, "the mother of all living" was for the moment a pleasant surprise.

They also were promised by God that SOME descendent from them would crush the head of the serpent who had plunged them into this calamity and divine judgment.

"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Gen. 5:15) This was a prophecy concerning the incarnation of the Son of God and the recovery of the man created with God's image and God's dominion to also crush Satan (with Jesus) under their collective feet.

The Apostle Paul tells the normal prevailing church of victory that with the Son of God they will crush the head of God's ancient enemy.
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your fee tshortly. The grace of Lord Jesus be with you all." (Romans 16:20)

The church's crushing is of course TOTALLY based on Christ's crushing of Satan at Calvary. This death of Christ applied to our old man to "co-crush" him in our experience. We must APPLY Christ's work, attainment, obtainment by means of His Spirit.

I am saying I don't know how the sons of God multiplied. But you cannot force angels to procreate when they are not even sexual, but the stars in the sky shining as bright lights.

All I know for sure is that certain angels were MORE evil for what they did. And they were especially marked out for something done around the time of Noah.

"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being keptfor judgment" (Second Peter 2:4)

"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place,He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)

All the angels that followed Satan are evil and destined to the lake of fire "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
From all of them a particular lot were especially wicked for doing something in Noah's day.
When Jesus died He announced and proclaimed to these spirits in the lowest place of the realm of death, their failure and Christ's victory over all of their schemes.

"Christ . . . on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit; He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared . . . " (See 1 Pet. 3:1,-20)

While Christ was three days in the realm of death and Hades, He visited these more wicked spirits so confined. He proclaimed their failure and His victory to accomplish all of God's purpose.

They only appear as men. No verse claims they literally become human. Even if they could take on the form of a son of God, that proves my point that they stopped being an angel, and became sons of God. But no verse claims angels stopped being angels and became sons of God. And sons of God are not angels and never were angels. Nor do they become angels. The verse in the Gospels says they are only like the angels and no longer procreate, which is the very opposite of you claiming angels can procreate.

The verse giving us ground to understand these angelic "sons of God" did something unprecidented in that "they did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place" (Jude 6)

1.) All the angels that followed Satan were dragged away from heaven, abandoning it. But not ALL of them were so given solitary confinement in Tartarus.
2.) Therefore the abandoning Jude speaks of must be of a seriousness beyond this.

If you press me HOW they did this I cannot tell you.
But we ought not underestimate what Satan and his hosts of great power are able to do.

Once again sons of God were always human and were never angels ever, not even in Job.

I disagree here.
I am sure "sons of God" present at the foundation of the world's physical establishment are angels.

Those sons of God in Job were those created on the 6th day,

Did you say above that they were created on the 4th Day?
Do you now change to say, it was on the 6th Day?
That is a question. Go back and check please.

If you consider Job 38:4-10 carefully the case is very strong that these sons of God witness that which is spoken of prior to Day #4 OR #6.

"When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
And who hedged in the sea with doors
When it burst forth, issuing from the womb,
When I made clouds its clothing
And deep darkness its swaddling cloths," (Job 38:7-9)
This sounds like Genesis 1:2 with the darkness of the on the surface of the deep on Day #1.

"And I broke out My boundaries for it and set up bars and doors,
And I said, To here you shall come and no farther,
And here shall yur proud waves be stopped? (vs. 10,11)
This sounds like Genesis 1:9 the appearing of the dry land to limit the seas on Day #3.

minus Adam who was a dead sinner. It was the offspring of those original sons of God, that became rebels, and it was the offspring of rebel sons of God, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh that became even more wicked, than even Adam and Eve. And Eve would have still been the mother of these wicked people through her daughters.

Now some say Satan took over Adam's place of authority.

You are conversing with me now.
I don't want to necessarily defend some belief I didn't espouse, but someone else may have.

But that makes no sense. After the Flood Satan was allowed to walk freely on earth and in heaven. His angels had already been bound in the pit. But God never granted Satan power over the earth. That would only happen if humans gave Satan their allegiance, and let him control them.

The history of Satan is one of progressive limitation.
His realm of freedom is set back piece by piece.
Execution into the eternal damnation is the grand END of the successive limiting of his freedom.

He not only now roams the earth, he also can appear before God blinded by his own pride, and accuse God's saints to God.
In Job we see this freedom not yet taken away.
Three and one half years before the end of this age he will deprived from this freedom.

"And there was war in heaven" Michael and his angels went to with the dragon and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

And I heard a loud vice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdomg of our God and the authority of His Christ, FOR THE ACCUSER OF OUR BROTHERS HAS BEEN CAST DOWN, who accuses them before our God day and night." (Rev. 12:7-10)

From the time this casting down takes place NO LONGER affording Satan to appear as an accuser in God's heaven, there is "only a short time" (v.12) of "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (v.6) This is also the three and one half years of the end of this age - the great tribulation. "And to the woman there was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the dragon." (Rev. 13:14)

The little time the saints left on the earth not having been raptured will be severely persecuted is the meaning.
This period lasts "for a time" one year, "and times" + two years + "half a time" one half year. Three and a half years according to the Hebrew counting of a years time.

The important point here is that by successive degrees Satan is pushed back and limited.
And he knows this in great rage to come.

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has gret rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)

Overcomers have been resurrected and raptured to the throne of God in heaven 3 1/2 years before the end of the age.
And Satan comes down in great rage knowing this expulsion brings the moment of his final execution nearer.
We do not know WHEN that 3 1/2 years has its starting point otherwise.

Asexual means no sex. The sons of God would have 2 sexes, not no sexes. Even trees have individual sexes. Birds have individual sexes. Hermaphrodite organisms are animals that have both male and female reproductive organs. Worms, snails, and some fish. This is no indication that angels are created this way. Since angels are stars, and obviously stars don't have sexual organs at all. Science calls them huge bodies of gas. Scripture states ministering air/gas. The literal term for pneuma, having to do with air and gases. And when the rebel angels left the firmament, they did not, nor could not change how they were created.

Asexual, pre-Adam, Hermaphrodite, bi-sexual men, similar to worms and snails - like people for a thousand years reproducing and being called "sons of God" ??

Do you have a reason WHY you think God would create these creatures on the 6th Day and "REST?"
What would He have achieved which gave Him satisfaction ?

 

[Timtofly]

What Genesis 3:20 says is " . . . she was the mother of all living."

You can't say "dead sinners" only came out of Eve, but the "living" sinless humans who were not subject to death existed before her.
Can you name one of these pre-Eve non-sinners?

Before the Flood sinful men were growing more and more sinful.
"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil contiunally." (Gen. 6:5)

Some age of non-sinful human beings asexually reproducing prior to Eve the mother of all living, is nowhere in Scripture.
And BEFORE the Flood the downward degradation of sin ravaged society marches ever towards judgment.

Leading up to the Flood: "And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth. And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, foer the earth is filled with violence because of them. and now I am about to destroy them with the earth." (Gen. 6:12,13)

Have you not invented 6th Day a non-sinful, not subject to sin and death, un-dead population for a millennia before Adam and Eve?
The space of time before Adam and his wife disobeyed God, I admit, is unknown.
I see no reason for saying men (bi-sexual) somehow reproduced until one was selected from them to be Adam and Eve in the garden.

Genesis chapter one mentions nothing about failure, sin, or death. That is not its purpose.
Genesis chapter two re-visits the creation of man with a particular focus needed to understand the whole rest of the Bible.

HOW will man fulfill God's plan that he express the image and dominion of God over God's creation?
He must CHOOSE to take in the life of God as signified by "the tree of life."

Failing to do so and being sidetracked by God's enemy the entire race of human beings, through Adam, was joined to Satan and the nature of sin. This sin can only progress downward into further and further degradation.

"But death reigned from Adam until Moses . . . " (Romans 5:14a)
Adam is "the first man." (1 Cor.15:45, 47)



No, I am not. There is no going back in time to be a mother of all living. There is only going forward in time from Eve for her to be the mother of all living. This is not the mother of some living or the mother of all living AFTER Eden.

Adam made the claim "LIVING!" probably because he was expecting that he and his wife were to stop breathing immediately.
The reaction of calling Eve the mother of all living was good news. Thnough eventually he would grow old and physically die, he perceived God's mercy. They BEGAN to die. But they did not until long after they produced children.

The killing of the cattle and the clothing of their nakedness (for which they were not ashamed) all spoke of God's mercy in spite of the edict that they would die. They were the first to receive the gospel message. And in joy that there WAS some hope of vindication, "the mother of all living" was for the moment a pleasant surprise.

They also were promised by God that SOME descendent from them would crush the head of the serpent who had plunged them into this calamity and divine judgment.

"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Gen. 5:15) This was a prophecy concerning the incarnation of the Son of God and the recovery of the man created with God's image and God's dominion to also crush Satan (with Jesus) under their collective feet.

The Apostle Paul tells the normal prevailing church of victory that with the Son of God they will crush the head of God's ancient enemy.
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feetshortly. The grace idfiur ord Jesus be with you all." (Romans 16:20)

The church's crushing is of course TOTALLY based on Christ's crushing of Satan at Calvary. This death of Christ applied to our old man to "co-crush" him in our experience. We must APPLY Christ's work, attainment, obtainment by means of His Spirit.

All I know for sure is that certain angels were MORE evil for what they did. And they were especially marked out for something done around the time of Noah.

"For if God did not spare theangels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having casat them down to Tartarus, they being keptfor judgment" (Second Peter 2:4)

"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place,He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)

All the angels that followed Satan are evil and destined to the lake of fire "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
From all of them a particular lot were especially wicked for doing something in Noah's day.
When Jesus died He announced and proclaimed to these spirits in the lowest place of the realm of death, their failure and Christ's victory over all of their schemes.

"Christ . . . on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit; He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark wqs being prepared . . . " (See 1 Pet. 3:1,-20)

While Christ was three days in the realm of death and Hades, He visited these more wicked spirits so confined. He proclaimed their failure and His victory to accomplish all of God's purpose.

The verse giving me us ground to understand these angelic "sons of God" did something unprecidented in that "they did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place" (Jude 6)

1.) All the angels that followed Satan were dragged away from heaven, abandoning it. But not ALL of them were so given solitary confinement in Tartarus.
2.) Therefore the abandoning Jude speaks of must be of a seriosness beyond this.

If you press me HOW they did this I cannot tell you.
But we ought not underestimate what Satan and his hosts of great power are able to do.

I disagree here.
I am sure "sons of God" present at the foundation of the world's physical establishment are angels.

Did you say above that they were created on the 4th Day?
Do you now change to say, not it was on the 6th Day?
That is a question. Go back and check please.

If you consider Job 38:4-10 carefully the case is very strong that these sons of God witness that which is spoken of prior to Day #4 OR #6.

"When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
And who hedged in the sea with doors
When it burst forth, issuing from the womb,
When I made clouds its clothing
And deep darkness its swaddling cloths," (Job 38:7-9)
This sounds like Genesis 1:2 with the darkness of the on the surface of the deep on Day #1.

"And I broke out My boundaries for it and set up bars and doors,
And I said, To here you shall come and no farther,
And here shall yur proud waves be stopped? (vs. 10,11)
This sounds like Genesis 1:9 the appearing of the dry land to limit the seas on Day #3.


You are conversing with me now.
I don't want to necessarily defend some belief I didn't espouse, but someone else may have.


The history of Satan is one of progressive limitation.
His realm of freedom is set back piece by piece.
Execution into the eternal damnation is the grand END of the successive limiting of his freedom.

He not only now roams the earth, he also can appear before God blinded by his own pride, and accuse God's saints to God.
In Job we see this freedom not yet taken away.
Three and one half years before the end of this age he will deprived from this freedom.

"And there was war in heaven" Michael and his angels went to with the dragon and hisangels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

And I heard a loud vice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdomg of our God and the authority of His Christ, FOR THE ACCUSER OF OUR BROTHERS HAS BEEN CAST DOWN, who accuses them before our God day and night." (Rev. 12:7-10)

From the time this casting down takes place NO LONGER affording Satan to appear as an accuser in God's heaven, there is "only a short time" (v.12) of "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (v.6) This is also the three and one half years of the end of this age - the great tribulation. "And to the woman there was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the dragon." (Rev. 13:14)

The little time the saints left on the earth not having been raptured will be severely persecuted is the meaning.
This period lasts "for a time" one year, "and times" + two years + "half a time" one half year. Three and a half years according to the Hebrew counting of a years time.

The important point here is that by successive degrees Satan is pushed back and limited.
And he knows this in great rage to come.

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has gret rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)

Overcomers have been resurrected and raptured to the throne of God in heaven 3 1/2 years before the end of the age.
And Satan comes down in great rage knowing this expulsion brings the moment of his final execution nearer.
We do not know WHEN that 3 1/2 years has its starting point otherwise.


Asexual, pre-Adam, Hermaphrodite, bi-sexual men, similar to worms and snails - like people for a thousand years reproducing and being called "sons of God" ??

Do you have a reason WHY you think God would create these creatures on the 6th Day and "REST?"
What would He have achieved which gave Him satisfaction ?

Eve was not the mother of Adam. Eve was not the mother of the sons of God. Eve was not the mother of every angel, nor living animal.

Eve was the mother of all sinful flesh.

The Sabbath Day is a Day of the Lord. It is not an invention any more that the soon coming Day of the Lord, the last 1,000 years on earth.

The sons of God were not men, singular. They were all of humanity. They were described as all of them being male and female. No one understands how that worked, because it is not found in Scripture. A son of God had offspring with a daughter, which is assumed a female. There is no sexual definition of a son of God given. Saying there were male sons of God and female sons of God is mere speculation. Adam was a son of God and Eve was removed from Adam some how by God. So it is very plausible that every son of God was just like Adam before Eve was separated out of Adam. Whatever that was is a moot point. There are no sons of God currently on earth to dissect. It was not those created on the 6th day that are mentioned in Genesis 6. It would be their offspring as they also produced many generations prior to Adam and Eve being kicked out of the Garden and at least 7 generations until Enoch, when things went wrong. It was not Adam's daughters. It was probably Methuselah's daughters, Noah's sisters that were the ones procreating with a latter generation of the sons of God. Noah lived through 500 years of this mess.

The stars/angels were created on the 4th Day. The sons of God/humans on day 6. Job could be talking about the Flood as well. The first 6 days were still at the beginning. That is only 144 hours. Then they had 1,000 years to sing from the firmament, and shout from the land below in unison, even.

It does not make sense to declare only angels during creation week, and then place humans a thousand years later. You may not agree that God allowed many generations during a single Day of the Lord. It will happen again when Christ reigns for 1,000 years on earth. There will be many generations of humans on earth during the Day of the Lord.

Adam did not even name Eve until they were sinners. She can only be the mother of all sinners. Adam may not have understood all the ramifications of being physically and spiritually dead. Perhaps he was glad to be alive and not yet punished to sheol. Certainly Eve was not the mother of all those giants mentioned. Only those born after the Flood.

All the angels were bound who left the firmament. They did not leave the pit, and then bound. You keep claiming they could come and go as they please. They are released in the 5th Trumpet. Certainly not to procreate with humans: Revelation 9:1-10

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Jude never said the sons of God left their first estate. He said the angels left their first estate. Jude was not comparing sexual behavior. Jude was comparing those in rebellion to God. The sons of God are not mentioned once in Jude. The rebel angels, and the rebel humans are mentioned. The sons of God did not rebel. Their offspring became sinners, as they were now part of Eve's offspring.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you have a reason WHY you think God would create these creatures on the 6th Day and "REST?"
What would He have achieved which gave Him satisfaction ?

So they could sing and shout for joy for a thousand years. Genesis 2:1-6

Do you not think humans were created on day 6? That they were created a thousand years later?

 

[oikonomia]

Eve was not the mother of Adam. Eve was not the mother of the sons of God. Eve was not the mother of every angel, nor living animal.

That's for sure. Whoever made that argument is really confused.

It does not make sense to declare only angels during creation week, and then place humans a thousand years later.

I didn't propose that.

You may not agree that God allowed many generations during a single Day of the Lord. It will happen again when Christ reigns for 1,000 years on earth. There will be many generations of humans on earth during the Day of the Lord.

I believe this - generations of people born during the millennial kingdom.
These points you raise border on strawmen you're knocking down which I did not erect.
While they are easy to knock down, I haven't proposed them.

Ie. I am not arguing for humans being created only 1,000 years after only angels were.
I am looking for your counterpoints which actually address what I DID write.

What I see so far is such dedication to a viewpoint that you cannot even conceive of another.
At any rate, dashing to pieces strawman arguments I never made is not as interesting to me as your reasonings countering what I did write.

Adam did not even name Eve until they were sinners.

I don't see it as relevatant even if that is the case.

She can only be the mother of all sinners. Adam may not have understood all the ramifications of being physically and spiritually dead. Perhaps he was glad to be alive and not yet punished to sheol. Certainly Eve was not the mother of all those giants mentioned. Only those born after the Flood.

If the Nephilim were the product of humans and supernatural evil fallen angels, she would be the mother at least of the human daughters.

"And when men [descendents of Adam and Eve] began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters [also Adam and Eve's descendents] were born to them. And the sons of God [angels] saw the daughters of men were fair; and they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose." (Gen 6:1,2)

They were trying to destroy the human race. And I believe some deep occult activity may have accompanied this Satanic scheme to derange humanity. For the immediately following verse implies the sins of man may have opened to door to such inroads of evil.

"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh; The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and afterwards - when the sons of God [angels] came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these are the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown." (Gen. 6:3,4)

I think your dedication to another view is so strong that you cannot conceive of reading these passages any other way.

My present opinion is that these exceedingly wicked interaction between Satan's hosts of supernatural power AND sinful human descendents of Adam and Ever was the tampering and allowance of the deepest occult worship. "The deep things of Satan, as they say" (Revelation 2:24)
Sinful man must have delved into the darkest demonic devotion inviting certain "sons of God" [angels] unprecidented access to the affairs of humans.

All the angels were bound who left the firmament. They did not leave the pit, and then bound. You keep claiming they could come and go as they please.

Here again your perfectly devastating knocking down of strawman arguments, posturing that I proposed them.
I try to do you the service of countering arguments you have actually MADE rather than strawman ones I imagine you are making.

I said ZERO about angels leaving the pit and then being bound again.
If you want to understand my logic - the evil hosts of Satan have freedom allowed to them by God until their total destruction.
Some of them God had to especially confine however, because of exceptionally heinious offenses against God's order in creation.

They are released in the 5th Trumpet. Certainly not to procreate with humans: Revelation 9:1-10

I did not say anything released from the 5th trumpet (Rev. 8:13-9:11) procreates with humans.
I will not get into it now. But the spirit of a very evil person (edited) does come up from that abyss and inhabit the body of someone in the very last days.

But the sin of the sons of God to produce fallen ones as the Nephilim is recorded in Genesis 6 not Revelation.
You are probably unable to read what I am saying about this WITHOUT the glasses of your own paradigm.
I accept that. Others reading along may make up their own minds.

The parading of strawman arguments to smash down indicates to me that you thinking outside your paradigm is very difficult.
The sons of God are the pseudo humans created male and female from the 6th Day celebrating in song for 1,000 years and THAT is THAT is THAT! And anything I write with another explanation has no chance of objective consideration for you.

What I carefully explain you see only as a monkey wrench thrown into a well working machine of a understanding which alternative (edited) is silly.

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. . . .

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Great verses. This is not Genesis chapter 6.
The release of some horrible locust like emisaries of the Devil doesn't have to mean the angels of Jude 24 are not kept there confined for the judgement.

" And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6)

Did I insist they come out out of this situation and re-do the crime which was the cause for this particular punishment?
I did not.

Jude never said the sons of God left their first estate. He said the angels left their first estate.

Here again, the demonstration of your inability to objectively think outside your paradigm.
We are using the same words but different dictionaries.
You can only think in terms of your definitions.

Ie "Sons of God are not angels because they are not. And that is that is that."

Jude was not comparing sexual behavior. Jude was comparing those in rebellion to God.

No problem. The evil angelic "sons of God" surely were in rebellion.
The phrase "In like manner" indicates the sins of Sodom and Gommorah ALSO involved illicit and abnormal sexual relations abominable to God.

" . . . He [God] has kept in eternal bonds [certain angels] under gloom for the judgment of the great day; How Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, WHO IN LIKE MANNER with these gave themselves over to fornication and went after different flesh, . . . " (vs. 6,7)

I dare not totally rule out the evil power and ability of some of the angels who followed Satan.
I am not curious to know HOW they so sinned. And I gladly confess that I cannot explain HOW they committed such crimes.

If someone sent me to read something like the Book of Enoch or some other religious apochryphal writings, I would tell them that I barely have time to get into the unsearchable healthy riches of the book of Ephesians or the Gospel of John. I don't have the time to study something non-canoncal tickling human curioisity. It is good enough to understand how I think the Bible is telling us that which we need to know. And that as to how it is related to God's eternal purpose.

The sons of God are not mentioned once in Jude. The rebel angels, and the rebel humans are mentioned. The sons of God did not rebel. Their offspring became sinners, as they were now part of Eve's offspring.

Angels are mentioned.
What Jude identifies as angels (v.6) I take Genesis and Job to indentify as "the sons of God."
You can't see it that way. And we have to simply agree to disagree.

I think the mythology of demigods and lustful "gods" getting involved with human women from Roman and Greek pantheons, I think, has some background in this matter.

The myths are embellished. Something in the memory of mankind furnishes a basis for the tales of "mighty men" of renown, half god / half human heroes, and giants. (Genesis 6:4)