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The 10 Commandments are done away!

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Why did you stop there?:

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

Who is putting the torah on their hearts? What torah is it? Please think this through to its logical conclusion.

You are right Jesus came to start the New Covenant, but it is the same terms as the old one, but with BETTER promises. There is lots to talk about on this subject if you wish.

You shouldn't add your assumptions to the texts, Jeremiah never said God would put the Torah, meaning the books of Moses, in our hearts; Clearly we are told it will be a NEW COVENANT.

The word law/torah, strictly speaking, is a precept or statute, while the word Torah is used to normally reference the books of Moses, the word torah properly speaking references the grazing pasture of obligation man has to living right and Jesus' words are the Torah that is referred to here. It is you that is missing Jeramiah's point, as Jeramiah clearly stated: NOT THE COVENANT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS... It is a New set of precepts.
 
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I'm sorry, but Jesus did not come with his own, new law. He came only speaking the Father's words.

When he was giving the sermon on the mount he did not say people couldn't add or take away from HIS law, he was saying this about the Father's law (which is found in torah):

Deu 4:2 “Do not add to the Word which I command you, and do not take away from it1, so as to guard the commands of יהוה your Elohim which I am commanding you.

When Jesus says:

Joh_14:15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.

What he is REALLY saying is from here (the shema):

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one!
Deu 6:5 “And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 “And these Words which I am commanding you today shall be in your heart,
Deu 6:7 and you shall impress them upon your children, and shall speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up,
Deu 6:8 and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Deu 6:9 “And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.


What you are insinuating is that Jesus came to destroy the torah and add his own law on top of it. This would cause him to be a sinner, a false prophet, a deceiver, and a blasphemer. Is this the type of person you want to follow if this is true? (He is actually the son of elohim who upholds and does the Father's words which is way different than what you have stated)


The books of Moses demanded people be stoned for adultery, Jesus did violate Moses' rules and promoted that others should violate Moses' precepts to follow his instead, if not, are you saying we should stone adulterers? If you say no: you are a violator of Moses' precepts and a deceiver and blasphemer: according to your own words. Still think Jesus kept the Torah, as in the first 5 books of Moses, as opposed to the TORAH: precepts/statutes that where different than Moses' precepts?
 
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jason1

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The books of Moses demanded people be stoned for adultery, Jesus did violate Moses' rules and promoted that others should violate Moses' precepts to follow his instead, if not, are you saying we should stone adulterers? If you say no: you are a violator of Moses' precepts and a deceiver and blasphemer: according to your own words. Still think Jesus kept the Torah, as in the first 5 books of Moses, as opposed to the TORAH: precepts/statutes that where different than Moses' precepts?

Jesus did not violate Moses law. Yes we should stone adulterers if we were in Israel (national law).

As to your New Covenant post, do you not think that it can be a different covenant but the same terms? What has changed are the promises which makes this a better covenant. Did the Lawgiver mess up the first time around? If it is a new set of precepts, then can you name them for me? Would the 10 commandments be part of them? What about the laws of incest, bestiality, etc? It makes no logical sense the terms would be replaced just because the people had the problem keeping it. Its like changing the rules your kids have to obey in your house just because they keep breaking them and getting in trouble.
 
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Bob S

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Jesus did not violate Moses law. Yes we should stone adulterers if we were in Israel (national law).
John seems to disagree with you.
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


As to your New Covenant post, do you not think that it can be a different covenant but the same terms? What has changed are the promises which makes this a better covenant. Did the Lawgiver mess up the first time around? If it is a new set of precepts, then can you name them for me? Would the 10 commandments be part of them? What about the laws of incest, bestiality, etc? It makes no logical sense the terms would be replaced just because the people had the problem keeping it. Its like changing the rules your kids have to obey in your house just because they keep breaking them and getting in trouble.

https://www.gci.org/law/nutshell

"Jesus Christ is the basis of the new covenant, the bond of friendship that God has given us. We can accept this or reject it. Because he loves us with indescribable love, he urges us to accept it — to put our faith, our trust, in Jesus Christ—to trust him with our lives, and to accept him as our only means of salvation.
The Old Covenant was Israel putting its trust in the law.

All this is a gift—it is not something we could ever earn. If we look at what we deserve, we deserve to be alienated from God and therefore separated from the joy of knowing him and participating in his eternal blessings. But the good news is that we don’t have to be alienated—Christ has already reconciled us. We can live forever enjoying harmony with God because of Jesus Christ, because of what he did for us in his death and resurrection.


Our salvation — being rescued from destruction and restored as favored friends and children of God — depends entirely on Jesus Christ. He is the basis of this great rescue. Accepting him is the one requirement that God makes as the basis of this magnificent agreement we call the new covenant.


Accepting Jesus is not a work that we perform in order to meet the conditions of the contract, so to speak—it is simply an intrinsic part of enjoying what God is giving us. In one respect, we have already been brought into a new relationship with God—our choice is whether to enjoy it, or resist it. When we enjoy a beautiful sunset, our joy has nothing to do with our skill, and we certainly have not earned the joy—that is simply the appropriate response.


If we believe the good news and trust in Jesus, then we are experiencing a right relationship with God (and all the responsibilities and privileges that go with that right relationship). Jesus Christ is the core of the new covenant. That is why he must always be the center of our church, our preaching, our proclamation and our personal lives."


Amen!
 
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jason1

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I'm sorry guys, but you are in gross error:

#1 - You call Jesus a sinner (saying he broke torah). You thus have no perfect lamb.

#2 - You shirk all responsibility of having a standard of righteousness (other than believing). This is not how scripture works and we are given so many examples that obedience = life and disobedience = death. Jesus does play a part, which is the part of redemption (buying back), but the path of salvation is found in keeping the words of Elohim (Jesus is the living word you know - our example).

Jas 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.

(works are acts of torah)

Your religion is empty because these two issues are HUGE. I understand the church teaches these false things and you have been led astray, but you still have time to repent and turn back towards the Creator of the universe and obey every word that proceeds out of his mouth (OT and NT says this)
 
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Jesus did not violate Moses law. Yes we should stone adulterers if we were in Israel (national law).

As to your New Covenant post, do you not think that it can be a different covenant but the same terms? What has changed are the promises which makes this a better covenant. Did the Lawgiver mess up the first time around? If it is a new set of precepts, then can you name them for me? Would the 10 commandments be part of them? What about the laws of incest, bestiality, etc? It makes no logical sense the terms would be replaced just because the people had the problem keeping it. Its like changing the rules your kids have to obey in your house just because they keep breaking them and getting in trouble.



Here are a few violations Jesus committed against Moses' Laws:

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Go ahead, stone her for her sins (I am crying in my spirit to make this statement) and see if God will forgive you for yours on Judgement Day. FORGIVE US OUR DEBTS AS WE FORGIVE OUR DEBTORS. Is your heart so cold that you have no love for a human being that is your equal in every way and then you think God will accept you, a sinner, while you reject your fellow human being? Do you not hear Jesus: LET YOU WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.

Those Pharisees had their eye on Jesus and heard him speak on his teachings and were ready to trap him, if he said to let her live, so what does he do? He tells them if they are perfect and not in need of God's mercy, then go ahead kill her.

Why did they care what Jesus taught: if Jesus followed Moses and Moses said to stone her?

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Moses never taught this, the torah/precepts of Moses has nothing on the torah/precepts of Christ. You want God's love and you refuse to love your enemies? You will not find forgiveness unless you do: NEW COVENANT.

I am wondering if you are sincere. I ask because many times it has been stated that Jesus raised the standards of righteousness and if you look at Jesus' teachings you will see the new higher obligations, starting in Matthew 5, which he reveals to us.

Moses was clear on not eating all kinds of foods, but Jesus states the following:

Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Again we see Jesus contradicting Moses' teachings.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mark 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Didn't Moses say that you would prepare your food on the 6th day and on the 7th not to gather or prepare food? Again Jesus violates Moses Torah/Laws/precepts: NEW COVENANT.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Moses' Torah never lead men to turn from their sins and indeed it never had the power to do so, as it failed to address forgiveness, which is essential to be of an equitable character: for one who is in need of being forgiven.

Again I state: the Don'ts of the books of Moses fail to show people the way of righteousness and thus they have no power to save a person, not a single one.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Walk in Love and forgive others, caring about people not material gain: which is self serving and against the good of the whole. Do these things not resonate with your inward parts? Of course they do, the question is will you do it, or will you fight against the law of God written on your heart, which is demanding love of mankind and thus affection for God? You are willing to stone a person who is your equal and you think all is well with yourself before God?

Go and learn what this means: I will have mercy and not sacrifice. Don't you see that God is looking for us to be merciful and that He does not care about your sacrificial offerings, if you fail to be merciful.
 
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jason1

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Why did they care what Jesus taught: if Jesus followed Moses and Moses said to stone her?

Jesus was following Moses by not stoning her. Notice they were testing him and he passed this test. The law said that if a MAN and a WOMAN were caught in adultery then they were to be stoned. WHERE WAS THE MAN???????

Moses was clear on not eating all kinds of foods, but Jesus states the following:

Jesus was not breaking the law here. He was teaching that if you eat something dirty it goes into the toilet (Like eating with unclean hands). True defilement is what comes out of your heart. He was in no way changing the kosher laws. Eating pig, shrimp, vulture, mouse, etc are NOT FOOD. Even Noah knew this. Do not twist the scripture.

Didn't Moses say that you would prepare your food on the 6th day and on the 7th not to gather or prepare food? Again Jesus violates Moses Torah/Laws/precepts: NEW COVENANT

The Disciples were not gathering food. They were walking through a field and simply picking some corn and eating it (not working). Its like passing by an apple tree on the sabbath and picking one to eat. It is not cooking, baking, or any work involved. What they DID BREAK was the ORAL LAW regarding sabbath. No sin there.

Moses' Torah never lead men to turn from their sins and indeed it never had the power to do so, as it failed to address forgiveness, which is essential to be of an equitable character: for one who is in need of being forgiven.

The torah says over and over and over for people to repent and turn back to the creator. Elohim pours his heart out for people to obey and promises them great things for doing so. The sacrificial system included ways to restore someone back to standing for unintentional sins. Read Ezekiel 18 and its all about repentance. Read David pouring his heart out about it. Elohim sent prophet after prophet, heard prayers, won battles, etc for his people. Repentance is EVERYWHERE. Have you really read the OT?

Again I state: the Don'ts of the books of Moses fail to show people the way of righteousness and thus they have no power to save a person, not a single one.

You seem to lack the concept of what righteousness is:

Deu 6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’
 
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bbbbbbb

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Jesus was following Moses by not stoning her. Notice they were testing him and he passed this test. The law said that if a MAN and a WOMAN were caught in adultery then they were to be stoned. WHERE WAS THE MAN???????

Jesus was not breaking the law here. He was teaching that if you eat something dirty it goes into the toilet (Like eating with unclean hands). True defilement is what comes out of your heart. He was in no way changing the kosher laws. Eating pig, shrimp, vulture, mouse, etc are NOT FOOD. Even Noah knew this. Do not twist the scripture.

The Disciples were not gathering food. They were walking through a field and simply picking some corn and eating it (not working). Its like passing by an apple tree on the sabbath and picking one to eat. It is not cooking, baking, or any work involved. What they DID BREAK was the ORAL LAW regarding sabbath. No sin there.

The torah says over and over and over for people to repent and turn back to the creator. Elohim pours his heart out for people to obey and promises them great things for doing so. The sacrificial system included ways to restore someone back to standing for unintentional sins. Read Ezekiel 18 and its all about repentance. Read David pouring his heart out about it. Elohim sent prophet after prophet, heard prayers, won battles, etc for his people. Repentance is EVERYWHERE. Have you really read the OT?

You seem to lack the concept of what righteousness is:

Deu 6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’

The Pharisees had probably already dealt with the man who had commited adultery. I think you can rest easy that they did not let him off the hook.
 
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jason1

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The Pharisees had probably already dealt with the man who had commited adultery. I think you can rest easy that they did not let him off the hook.

That makes no sense. Why bring the woman and not the man? Why make up stories that aren't there?

Why do you think they all went away ashamed?
 
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bbbbbbb

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That makes no sense. Why bring the woman and not the man? Why make up stories that aren't there?

Why do you think they all went away ashamed?

I am hardly an expert in rabbinical Law as it was enforced in the first century and I suspect you are not either. In current jurisprudence each individual is tried separately even though they may have cooperated with others in their crimes. Their cooperation is admitted as evidence and, hopefully, an accurate determination of guilt of innocence is obtained. If the plaintiff is found guilty then the judge determines the punishment. I think it highly probable that the guilty man had either been tried and punished already or that he would. His presence or absence in the narrative is really of no significance IMO.
 
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Jesus was following Moses by not stoning her. Notice they were testing him and he passed this test. The law said that if a MAN and a WOMAN were caught in adultery then they were to be stoned. WHERE WAS THE MAN???????



Jesus was not breaking the law here. He was teaching that if you eat something dirty it goes into the toilet (Like eating with unclean hands). True defilement is what comes out of your heart. He was in no way changing the kosher laws. Eating pig, shrimp, vulture, mouse, etc are NOT FOOD. Even Noah knew this. Do not twist the scripture.



The Disciples were not gathering food. They were walking through a field and simply picking some corn and eating it (not working). Its like passing by an apple tree on the sabbath and picking one to eat. It is not cooking, baking, or any work involved. What they DID BREAK was the ORAL LAW regarding sabbath. No sin there.



The torah says over and over and over for people to repent and turn back to the creator. Elohim pours his heart out for people to obey and promises them great things for doing so. The sacrificial system included ways to restore someone back to standing for unintentional sins. Read Ezekiel 18 and its all about repentance. Read David pouring his heart out about it. Elohim sent prophet after prophet, heard prayers, won battles, etc for his people. Repentance is EVERYWHERE. Have you really read the OT?



You seem to lack the concept of what righteousness is:

Deu 6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’

If the woman was caught in the act, then the man was obviously also caught.

Jason have you ever looked at a woman that is not your wife and desired to have sex with her?

Did you know if you sinned, knowing that what you were doing is wrong, that there is no atonement and thus no forgiveness possible under Moses' laws?

Num 15:22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Num 15:23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
Num 15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

There is no forgiveness for a person who knowingly sins under Moses' Law.

Again I ask you: have you ever looked at a woman and desired to have sex with her, who was not your wife? If all Jesus was and is doing is giving clarity on Moses' Laws and if you have had such a desire EVER, while knowing it is wrong, then you can never be forgiven for your sins, your sins are upon you and you cannot be forgiven according to Moses' laws.

And let's say by chance you have not lusted after a woman, then have you done anything wrong and knew it was wrong before you did it? If the answer is yes, and I am certain it is, you don't have any atonement under Moses' Laws. YOU SINS done knowingly ARE JUST AS DAMNABLE AS AN ADULTEROR'S ARE.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Still think you can be forgiven for doing anything wrong, if you are aware it is wrong, under Moses' laws? If you think you can you are highly mistaken.
 
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Bob S

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I'm sorry guys, but you are in gross error:

#1 - You call Jesus a sinner (saying he broke torah). You thus have no perfect lamb.

#2 - You shirk all responsibility of having a standard of righteousness (other than believing). This is not how scripture works and we are given so many examples that obedience = life and disobedience = death. Jesus does play a part, which is the part of redemption (buying back), but the path of salvation is found in keeping the words of Elohim (Jesus is the living word you know - our example).

Jas 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.

(works are acts of torah)

Your religion is empty because these two issues are HUGE. I understand the church teaches these false things and you have been led astray, but you still have time to repent and turn back towards the Creator of the universe and obey every word that proceeds out of his mouth (OT and NT says this)
God breaks the Israelite only Sabbath every week if you believe He has to observe it. Jesus said He and His Father work every day. What makes you believe the Godhead is subject to the laws given Israel? God was not in bondage in Egypt. God is not sexual, God was not subject to the old covenant Sabbath law given to Israel. Why would He need to remember the Creator or creation, He is the Creator. Is there any place in all of scripture stating that God ever "kept" the Sabbath? Yes, He did rest on the last day of the week after the 6 days of creating all. Resting is not keeping the Sabbath given to Israel.
 
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jason1

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There is no forgiveness for a person who knowingly sins under Moses' Law.

You are correct that there is no sacrifice for willful sins in the levitical system. Yet we see examples of the patriarchs sinning and then repenting (david is a great example). Read Ezekiel 18 and see how sins are dealt with.

Then we come to the NT and I do believe Jesus takes care of willful sins. When we turn to Hebrews 10 we see this:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins.
Heb 10:27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour?

Sounds like we better keep the law even more perfectly now since Jesus only dies once for us. Willful sin from here on out is trampling on his blood.
 
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2 know him

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You are correct that there is no sacrifice for willful sins in the levitical system. Yet we see examples of the patriarchs sinning and then repenting (david is a great example). Read Ezekiel 18 and see how sins are dealt with.

Then we come to the NT and I do believe Jesus takes care of willful sins. When we turn to Hebrews 10 we see this:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins.
Heb 10:27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour?

Sounds like we better keep the law even more perfectly now since Jesus only dies once for us. Willful sin from here on out is trampling on his blood.


Wait, you are trying to say we should stone people to death for their sins and that the 5 books of Moses are the perfect law of God and you justify how the law is not perfect and how men are justified and forgiven which the writings of Moses don't account for, WHICH IS IT? Moses' law does not allow for David to be forgiven, actually it demands that he be stoned to death. So I guess God breaks his own law and then makes a covenant with a man that has absolutely no atonement possibilities under the Laws of Moses, and says He will establish this lawbreakers throne forever and you think it is Moses' law that is what Jesus kept and was preaching? I'm sorry but you have to see how laughable that is.
 
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jason1

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I'm still betting you haven't read Ez 18 yet. What does the Creator want when we error? REPENTANCE

David paid a hefty price for his sin which involved losing a newborn and having his son fight for the throne with him. Yes, he should have been stoned to death under the law and even his own mouth said he deserved death when the prophet confronted him.

There was atonement under the OT that you overlooked. Its called Yom Kippur or the Day of atonement (a whole day for it, woohoo!). As the NT says, the blood of bulls and goats on this day didn't take the sin away, but it covered it so they could still be in communion with the creator.

What are the greatest things in the Law?

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Go read some OT and see what repentance gets you :prayer:. Most people have no clue what all can be found there.
 
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I'm still betting you haven't read Ez 18 yet. What does the Creator want when we error? REPENTANCE

David paid a hefty price for his sin which involved losing a newborn and having his son fight for the throne with him. Yes, he should have been stoned to death under the law and even his own mouth said he deserved death when the prophet confronted him.

There was atonement under the OT that you overlooked. Its called Yom Kippur or the Day of atonement (a whole day for it, woohoo!). As the NT says, the blood of bulls and goats on this day didn't take the sin away, but it covered it so they could still be in communion with the creator.

Keep betting, as Ezekiel18 is the passages I quote most in the OT part of the bible. You seem to be missing the point... the torah Moses laid out, doesn't offer David mercy for what he did, it damned him to death and so God obviously never used Moses' laws to enact Mercy: as there was none under Moses' laws for David; Moses' laws condemned David and through them David should be stoned and if that happened there would be no Christ; so therefore, God shows mercy and through mercy a New Covenant is brought forth, as through David, Christ is brought forth into this world.

Yom Kippur doesn't atone for knowingly doing wrong: there is absolutely no sacrifice allowed, or acceptable, under the Mosaic Laws for sinning with foreknowledge.

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.


As I said before, I believe Paul was a heretic, but not all his words were wrong and in the following case he was not:
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The Prophet stated clearly God would make a New Covenant not according to, or as the actual Hebrew reads: NOT THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...

Under Moses' Law, I think I already clearly showed, you have no forgiveness for the sins you've knowingly committed and no hope of forgiveness.

Mercy is offered through Christ and prophesied through the Prophets who saw the need for Christ and God's mercy, as they knew the Torah of Moses offered no hope for Israel, but rather offered only condemnation and separation from God, which is something that you fail to see.
 
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BobRyan

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It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read the bible. If one doesn't understand that the 10 commandments are done away they can not understand what Christ came to do.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
.


"LAW AND the PROPHETS" is the entirety of scripture known to the NT saints at the time of Christ. Those who bend that text to "delete all of scripture" simply have not thought this through. Christ was NOT deleting all of scripture folks! -- read the Gospels!!

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

The wild speculation that Christ came to delete all of scripture -- is a bending of that text that few can take seriously.

==========================================================================
3 easy questions --


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the Commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Christ said "it is a big deal" in Mark 7


1. Question 1 -- In your view - is Christ in Error in Mark 7??

2. Question 2: Eph 6:2 "What unit of LAW" is being upheld by Paul in Eph 5:2 where the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a PROMISE"?... easy answer.

3. Question 3: Heb 8:6-10 NEW COVENANT "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 ---> what LAW did Jeremiah and his readders know about as being God's LAW?

hint: It includes the LAW of God known to the authors of the "Baptist Confession of Faith", "The Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Matthew Henry, C.H. Spurgeon, Andy Stanley)

===============================

What "LAW" condemns all the entire world in Rom 3:19-21 AND YET is "ESTABLISHED by our faith"??


Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
 
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BobRyan

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One of your own pro-sunday posters on this section of the board...

Jesus did not do away with the Commandments, even while he freed us from the consequences of failing to keep them 100% of the time. That's an important distinction.

But on the other hand, moving to Sunday worship is explicitly permitted, according to the New Testament
...
so it's not that the Christian churches are saying that keeping holy the Sabbath is of no importance anymore.

He seems to consider that threads such as this one and its OP -- are so little regarded by mainstream pro-sunday scholarship as to hardly be noticed.
 
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BobRyan

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1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" -- still to this very day.

The "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

CHRIST gave the TEN Commandments Heb 8:6-10.

"IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

"LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

Mark 7:6-13 tells you what CHRIST considered to be the COMMANDMENTS of God.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Can we ignore these texts - so that we can bow to the man-made-tradition that argues against God's Commandments???


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

or this --??

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


or this?

Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.





----or this?

Jer 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete

or this ---


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31



1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


or this - ??
Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


or this??

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.


or this?
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"


or this??

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10




====================================== if so then consider this -

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

"First commandment" in WHAT unit of LAW ?? The unit that includes the Sabbath.

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

Nothing except implying the Christians is obligated to keep the law
bugkiller

So then you "did not read" Romans 8???


HERE is where we find war against God's Ten Commandments
(on the part of SOME)
Rom 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 
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