The 10 Commandments are done away!

[Bob S]

Bob S: You were VERY quick on the draw, as I edited my original post to basically nothing. I don't know if this is a place/forum I desire to be part of based on what I've read so far. There are some good viewpoints, but there is name calling and other behavior that in my opinion is unnecessary and beneath the Christian spirit.

I am not going to beg you to stay, but it is my intention to never call anyone a name other than what is revealed to me by the debater. When I mention the word law thumper it is meant to be a generic term not calling a person that name. I have been called many things on forums. People think, when backed into a corner and have no answers, they have to use insults. That is their problem. I use scripture to back up most of my statements. I will not run because someone is insulting.

One of the reasons evil abounds is because we, the supposed body of Christ, can not come together. How many different Christian denominations exist? I heard a long time ago, it was over 600, but it is probably over 2000 by now. Satan is laughing his way to the end time, he must do nothing to hinder the body of Christ but let them smack each other around and not find the straight gate.

I do not belong to any organized religion.

I do not claim to be a SDA.

That is good.

That is wonderful, first hurdle dodged. Actually nobody on this thread, so far, has said that Jesus was just a prophet or less than the son of the Creator.

If you read some of the posters comments Jesus is not enough. They are still trying to pull themselves up by their own boot straps.

While I said, "Before you call me a 'law thumper'", I did not say what law I believed we were under.

Where did I call you a law thumper?

I believe the bible is not a book of religion, but a book of law.

The Bible to me is much more than law. the inspirational stories, beautiful poetry, helpful thoughts, promises and most of all the scriptures we have of Jesus life, death and resurrection.

While the 10 commandments were indeed included in the Mosaic law, I believe it is a distinct law, separate but also included in the Mosaic law. You probably know that the United States has 50 different titles within "the law". Each of those titles were enacted at different times and and can also be abolished individually or together at different times or at the same time.
You have no idea what I believe and suggest what I believe before I have communicated a belief. This is one of the reasons I do not know if I would stay on this or any forum. I can tell you that I believe that blood must be shed for remission of sin, because life is in the blood, a life for a life. Jesus was perfect and his sacrifice sufficient for you, me and everyone that believes on him.

Interesting thought, I just do not agree. The 10 need the book of the law to be enforceable and explained. Both are God's words to the Israelites. The 10 were included in the book of the law. Jews do not separate them.

IF (and I know, for that is a HUGE MONSTROUS if) there were at least two laws and one of them was forever and ever and not just for the Hebrews, and one of them was the Mosac law, then the not one jot... could have applied to the Creators perfect law. So, before I write a book on this thread, will you open your heart and mind to there possibly being at least two separate laws, 10 Cs and Mosaic, where the Mosaic included the 10Cs? (I believe the Mosaic law can be split into 50 different titles of law, BTW).

The laws given to Israel were the terms of the covenant at Sinai. When Israel failed to keep their part the whole covenant became null and void. that is why Paul wrote 2Cor 3 and Galatians 3.

What if the contradictions that supposedly exist could be wiped out because of the 2 law scenario? What if many could be called and many could be chosen? What if we knew what the straight gate was? Maybe you know all these things and more and can teach me (and I'm not being rude, obnoxious, or shining you on ... intentionally)?

It is not that simple. Jesus was referring to the law He was under, Torah.

I intentionally ignored the rest of your post until we have some...agreement that we will be civil and are open to each other's opinion and not interested in just hearing our own opinion.

Okay, your choice.

If there is no possibility of a "real" interaction, them we waste our time. The one thing I do not want is some other guys, preachers, ministers, cardinals, priests interpretation or opinion. How did you arrive at your belief and what backs it up? Because 95% of everything is a lie, I rely on inspiration from the Holy Spirit and logic. There are some issues with not being present at the time and knowing every thing about that time. It is possible you studied that, but again...95%.....

Where do youcome up with 95%? It is your call, stay and have your thoughts known by others or go and do other activities.

And, I'm open to the possibility of the super simple "Just Believe" philosophy. There are versus that must be overcome before that can be believed.

If you get your feeling hurt when someone disagrees with you I would suggest another avenue. I would like to see your thoughts. Your friend in Christ, bob

 

[bugkiller]

No, I'm not an SDA or a "member" of any "religious" order.

Then why is it you spout the teaching of a certain religious organization?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob S: You were VERY quick on the draw, as I edited my original post to basically nothing. I don't know if this is a place/forum I desire to be part of based on what I've read so far. There are some good viewpoints, but there is name calling and other behavior that in my opinion is unnecessary and beneath the Christian spirit.

To late, you already revealed yourself. Its very interesting that you appear as a few regular posters aren't posting for some reason. I'll skip out on the rest of your post.

bugkiller

 

[Leroy D]

Stupid you can not start a post and then cancel it....and can not delete a post.

 

[Leroy D]

This editor leaves much to be desired.

Where did I call you a law thumper?

You didn't Bob, never said you did.

The Bible to me is much more than law. the inspirational stories, beautiful poetry, helpful thoughts, promises and most of all the scriptures we have of Jesus life, death and resurrection.

For brevity, I did not mention everything that was in the Word, of course there are beautiful things...and seemingly cruel things.

Interesting thought, I just do not agree. The 10 need the book of the law to be enforceable and explained. Both are God's words to the Israelites. The 10 were included in the book of the law. Jews do not separate them.

I am not from the tribe of Judah, are you? Doesn't seem to me like any other book was needed for enforcement or explanation. 1. Do them, live. 2. Don't do them, repent, live. 3. Don't do them, don't repent, die.
The Mosaic law contained laws about the land, specifically land sabbaths. Not in the 10, nothing to do with the 10. I could go on and on.

The laws given to Israel were the terms of the covenant at Sinai. When Israel failed to keep their part the whole covenant became null and void.

Null and void if the Creator calls it null and void.
If we can agree that a covenant is a contract, I'll use contract. What is required in a contract? 2 parties, a time limit, some duty/exchange on the part of both parties typically.
So, we have two parties to this contract. We have the Creator (1st party) and we have the Israelites (2nd party). The time limit was forever. The duty was 1. the 1st party would be their God. 2. The 2nd party would "do" the law. When the 2nd party did the law, they were blessed. Failure of party #2 enabled the penalty clauses, i.e. the curses.
In today's legal system, legally the "contract" was broken, and the 1st party had a right to end it and/or exact whatever penalty was included in the contract. If it wasn't ended by the 1st party, then it was a modified contract. We see in the OT several times, we see the Hebrews fail in their duty and bad things happen, then come back to the creator and ask forgiveness and they are restored.

It is not that simple. Jesus was referring to the law He was under, Torah.

Doesn't answer my questions? But, of course Jesus was under to 10Cs and the Mosaic Law (which included the 10Cs). Why is this relevant to my questions?
I know two people that converted (before I knew them) to Judaism over these "contradictions". The contradictions need to be removed/explained or God is a god of confusion and I know He is not.

Okay, your choice.

Doesn't create a contract, Bob. I agreed to listen to you, you have not truly agreed to my proposition.

Where do you come up with 95%?

95%....it's probably more like 99% of everything we've ever been told is a lie. It is just a guess Bob, but almost everything I've ever researched in depth has led me down a rabbit hole (no pun intended). I also realize that the Satan is the master of deception and the earth his playground.

If you get your feeling hurt when someone disagrees with you I would suggest another avenue. I would like to see your thoughts.

Oh, I'm not that thin skinned and I expect EVERYONE to disagree with me. Just don't know if I need the aggravation and the sniping (not accusing you of that, Bob).
This unfortunately is a place that is public with no private way to communicate so any yahoo can post anything they want and I have to see negative things when I/we need to be thinking on the pure, positive, things of good report, etc.
Too bad there isn't moderation on this forum that says if you don't have something positive or constructive to say....don't say anything, i.e. delete the post. To disagree is fine, to snipe is less than worthless.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Stupid you can not start a post and then cancel it....and can not delete a post.

It's that way on most forums these days, An easy way to deal with it is called a "dot" post where you delete everything and leave a period or dot there.

 

[Leroy D]

It's that way on most forums these days, An easy way to deal with it is called a "dot" post where you delete everything and leave a period or dot there.

Yes, I figured that out, but I was wanting to copy a post with the quote stuff in there and do it offline, and once you say reply...you can't quit, you have to submit it.

 

[Leroy D]

This unfortunately is a place that is public with no private way to communicate ...

Actually there is a way to communicate privately, but I don't understand how to do it yet, being new to this forum software. Is this something you would consider, Mr. Bob?

 

[Leroy D]

Actually there is a way to communicate privately, but I don't understand how to do it yet, being new to this forum software. Is this something you would consider, Mr. Bob?

I get an error when attempting that...more poorly written software I reckon.

 

[bugkiller]

Stupid you can not start a post and then cancel it....and can not delete a post.

Sure you can edit a post. Your problem is someone replied prior to your edit. So you can't delete their quote of your post.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, I figured that out, but I was wanting to copy a post with the quote stuff in there and do it offline, and once you say reply...you can't quit, you have to submit it.

It doesn't become public until the submit button is engaged.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I get an error when attempting that...more poorly written software I reckon.

I think you have to have a minimum number of posts.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Actually there is a way to communicate privately, but I don't understand how to do it yet, being new to this forum software. Is this something you would consider, Mr. Bob?

Yes, I am going away for the remainder of the week. I may have time to respond in the morning to your previous post. Bob

 

[Leroy D]

It doesn't become public until the submit button is engaged.

bugkiller

Yeah, well....It just sat there grayed out in my browser. Would not let me get rid of it and seemed like it was locking up the forum for me. Poorly written if you ask me, but you didn't.

 

[Leroy D]

.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Absolutely I believe Jesus. First of all we must acknowledge that Jesus was under the old covenant speaking to those who were under the same law. Gentiles never had the laws that the Jews were under. If we can understand that then it is much easier to understand the new covenant. Those who do not believe that "all has been fulfilled" and believe we must keep the 10 commandments are under obligation to observe all the Torah. Not one jot... Do you believe we must do sacrificial offerings? You may say that the system for sacrifice was destroyed. That is no excuse if you believe not one jot...

Either Jesus fulfilled the law and we are not subject to it or we are subject to all of the law. Not one jot... will pass from the Torah until all is fulfilled. Pretty understandable isn't it?

Bob, when do you believe the new covenant was sealed?

 

[Bob S]

This editor leaves much to be desired.
You didn't Bob, never said you did.

I read it wrong, sorry.

For brevity, I did not mention everything that was in the Word, of course there are beautiful things...and seemingly cruel things.

That is better.

I am not from the tribe of Judah, are you?

I don't know from what tribe I came. Is it traceable? All I know is that my great grandparents were Jews and came from Eastern Europe in the 19th century.

Doesn't seem to me like any other book was needed for enforcement or explanation. 1. Do them, live. 2. Don't do them, repent, live. 3. Don't do them, don't repent, die.

It seems to me there are many statements in the book of the law that further explain how to abide by the 10.
The Mosaic law contained laws about the land, specifically land sabbaths. Not in the 10, nothing to do with the 10. I could go on and on.

And I could too, but probably what I would write wouldn't change your opinion.

Null and void if the Creator calls it null and void.

And He did just that.

If we can agree that a covenant is a contract

,
Yes,

I'll use contract.

and I choose to use covenant because that is a better term and found in scripture.

What is required in a contract? 2 parties, a time limit, some duty/exchange on the part of both parties typically.
So, we have two parties to this contract. We have the Creator (1st party) and we have the Israelites (2nd party). The time limit was forever. The duty was 1. the 1st party would be their God. 2. The 2nd party would "do" the law. When the 2nd party did the law, they were blessed. Failure of party #2 enabled the penalty clauses, i.e. the curses.
In today's legal system, legally the "contract" was broken, and the 1st party had a right to end it and/or exact whatever penalty was included in the contract. If it wasn't ended by the 1st party, then it was a modified contract. We see in the OT several times, we see the Hebrews fail in their duty and bad things happen, then come back to the creator and ask forgiveness and they are restored.

Are you here to just make argument with what i have written? Was I wrong in my statement? If I was wrong with what I wrote then tell me.

Doesn't answer my questions?

Sorry about that, I had to do some interpreting there and concluded that you are going to tell us that only the book of the law would remain until all was fulfilled. After reading all of your comment I was correct in my analysis? Problem Jesus didn't make that statement and Jews do not make a distinction between the 10 and the book. The book contained the 10.

IF (and I know, for that is a HUGE MONSTROUS if) there were at least two laws and one of them was forever and ever and not just for the Hebrews,

Oh, How about some scripture to back up your thoughts. I know you would like for scripture to explain it your way because of your preconceived Idea that we must observe the Sabbath because it was part of the 10 and is universal. Proof my friend proof.

and one of them was the Mosac law, then the not one jot... could have applied to the Creators perfect law. So, before I write a book on this thread, will you open your heart and mind to there possibly being at least two separate laws, 10 Cs and Mosaic, where the Mosaic included the 10Cs? (I believe the Mosaic law can be split into 50 different titles of law, BTW).

Absolutely not. Jesus was referring to the law, all the law. All the written laws given by God to the children of Israel and only to the children of Israel. Deut 5

But, of course Jesus was under to 10Cs and the Mosaic Law (which included the 10Cs). Why is this relevant to my questions?

Because He came to free us from all the laws He was held captive under. Torah included the 10. The most important laws ever given in the old covenant were the laws found in the book of the law, love God and love your neighbor. Before Jesus annulled the old love command from the book He gave us a new command
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

I know two people that converted (before I knew them) to Judaism over these "contradictions". The contradictions need to be removed/explained or God is a god of confusion and I know He is not.

Why would you want to enter your theory into the debate when you cannot prove what you write? That could become confusing.

Doesn't create a contract, Bob. I agreed to listen to you, you have not truly agreed to my proposition.

Then feel free to break your agreement.

95%....it's probably more like 99% of everything we've ever been told is a lie. It is just a guess Bob,

Seems like you are doing a lot of guessing Leroy. I like facts. Fact one, I am a former SDA. Fact two, SDA doctrines are full of miss truths making SDAism not even close to being the "remnant".

but almost everything I've ever researched in depth has led me down a rabbit hole (no pun intended). I also realize that the Satan is the master of deception and the earth his playground.

Sorry about that. Would you like to elaborate?

Oh, I'm not that thin skinned and I expect EVERYONE to disagree with me. Just don't know if I need the aggravation and the sniping (not accusing you of that, Bob).

I have done some of that in this post. I will go back and re-write some of my response.

This unfortunately is a place that is public with no private way to communicate so any yahoo can post anything they want and I have to see negative things when I/we need to be thinking on the pure, positive, things of good report, etc.
Too bad there isn't moderation on this forum that says if you don't have something positive or constructive to say....don't say anything, i.e. delete the post. To disagree is fine, to snipe is less than worthless.

Actually, I like to debate on an open forum where lurkers can get answers. What may be positive to you may be negative to me. Churches tell the story slanted to favor their beliefs. It is good to present the other side before they get so brainwashed into someone's belief system that they refuse to see new light.

 

[Sundown]

It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read the bible. If one doesn't understand that the 10 commandments are done away they can not understand what Christ came to do.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The term "Christ" represents "the King of the Jews":
"Where is he that is born "King of the Jews"? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where "Christ" should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come "a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel".

Notice how Herod uses the term Christ synonymously with the term King of the Jews and how the chief priest and scribes respond to Herod's question of where the Christ is to be born (In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come "a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel"). It is clear that the term "Christ" was used to reference the anointed Heir to David's throne, the Messiah: the rightful heir to Rule God's people. If you are going to have a proper relationship with Jesus, you must relate to him as your Ruler: in obedience.

The 10 Commandments are absolutely done away as Jesus' Rule replaced the 10 Commandments.

The law is not a reference to the Torah, almost always the law is a reference to mankind's obligation to live right before God on any moral plain of existence. I know many of you that believe the Torah is still relevant are screaming inside yourself but let me ask you this question: why don't you stone adulterers to death as Moses commanded in the Torah?

For those of you that believe Paul's writings are inspired of God, why don't you believe Paul:

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (what was written and engraved in stones? THE 10 COMMANDMENTS), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory (This is a reference to the 10 Commandments being the ministration of condemnation), much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious (Paul clearly is saying the 10 commandments are DONE AWAY), much more that which remaineth is glorious.

This isn't the only place Paul addresses this

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Paul says the first Covenant leads to bondage)
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman (The Law) and her son (And those who follow it): for the son of the bondwoman (those who follow the law) shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman (those who follow Christ).
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (those who follow the law), but of the free.

Matthew 5:17 is very poorly written in English. Jesus was saying that he came to raise the standards of the law, not to lower them, but he didn't preach the Torah. If you think salvation is in the 10 commandments you have totally missed Jesus message: Jesus raised the standards of the law and replaced its teachings with a higher set of rules.

I just read your post and your statement "if one doesn't understand that the 10 commandments are done away they can not understand what Christ came to do."

In my opinion your statement is a ignorant one and I am stating this respectfully, I am not on this site to call names, nor to disrespect anyone. I can refute your argument with one question .... why Christ came? Christ came to fulfill everything that was spoken of him and to die on the cross, not to abolish the law, but to fulfill. Fulfill what? It does not say ;fulfill the law, it say just fulfill and you can see him throughout his life fulfilling everything that was spoken of Him. I can elaborate more on this, but I will have to write a long page. I wrote a book titled "SEEK GOD!" In this book I have a small section on the Law, hope one day you pick it up and read that section.

I am Sephardic Jew, I believe that though we keep the Law of God, they are now stored in my mind and engraved in my heart and it I sin against God he will bring them to my remembrance convicted me through the law, bringing me to repentance so God can give me of my sin and cleanse me from all my unrighteousness with the blood of Yeshua. Now, the law does not justify a man, it just allows man to walk rightly and blameless, nothing to do with us being made God's righteousness through the law, we are made his righteousness in Yeshua.

As for stoning the woman, I can also explain that, but at this time I do not want to write a page on this forum.

Respectfully,

 

[Bob S]

I just read your post and your statement "if one doesn't understand that the 10 commandments are done away they can not understand what Christ came to do."

In my opinion your statement is a ignorant one and I am stating this respectfully, I am not on this site to call names, nor to disrespect anyone. I can refute your argument with one question .... why Christ came? Christ came to fulfill everything that was spoken of him and to die on the cross, not to abolish the law, but to fulfill. Fulfill what? It does not say ;fulfill the law, it say just fulfill and you can see him throughout his life fulfilling everything that was spoken of Him. I can elaborate more on this, but I will have to write a long page. I wrote a book titled "SEEK GOD!" In this book I have a small section on the Law, hope one day you pick it up and read that section.

I am Sephardic Jew, I believe that though we keep the Law of God, they are now stored in my mind and engraved in my heart and it I sin against God he will bring them to my remembrance convicted me through the law, bringing me to repentance so God can give me of my sin and cleanse me from all my unrighteousness with the blood of Yeshua. Now, the law does not justify a man, it just allows man to walk rightly and blameless, nothing to do with us being made God's righteousness through the law, we are made his righteousness in Yeshua.

As for stoning the woman, I can also explain that, but at this time I do not want to write a page on this forum.

Respectfully,

I respectfully submit that you either do not believe the writings of Paul and John or you have not studied them. Where you belong does not impress me one iota. You are following the works of another and not New Testament scripture.

 

[Sundown]

I respectfully submit that you either do not believe the writings of Paul and John or you have not studied them. Where you belong does not impress me one iota. You are following the works of another and not New Testament scripture.

I respectfully submit that you either do not believe the writings of Paul and John or you have not studied them. Where you belong does not impress me one iota. You are following the works of another and not New Testament scripture.

Bob, I never deny the writings of Paul or John, where do you see that I deny their writings? What I am conveying is that verses are taken out of contents and given another meaning. What do you think Galatians 3:10 means, cross reference with Deuteronomy 11:26-28 before answering me.