The 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Poll Thread

[Postvieww]

Your constant assertion about why we supposedly do what we do for the reason we supposedly do is your own reading into what you do not understand about how we arrive at what we do.

In short, your mid-reading foolishness only ends up maligning, mis-labeling, and slandering us - for you have yet demonstrated you have even the slightest of a clue as to how we arrive at what we do.

In this, you are engaged in the very practice every word I have ever heard or read against Dispensationalism engages in and its resulting slander.

Fact is you are an incompetent in "research," of the worst kind, plain and simple.

How you look at yourself in the mirror given your consistent dishonesty in this has got to be amazing to behold.

Danoh, I did read the book you have mentioned in many of your posts. Interesting read. Gives much insight into how some interpret scripture, but it is not without error. One chapter jumped out at me as being mostly false in its assertions and conclusions. I will comment on a few points raised in that chapter. I will never cease to be amazed at the lengths some will go to to strip mine the supernatural from the scriptures. Not just on the subject of the gifts of the spirit and healing buts other topics as well. I do not write this to try to have a scriptural debate with you or anyone else, but give some perspective to the book you so faithfully promote on these forums. I have personally been a beneficiary of the operation of the gift of a word of knowledge and the gift of healing so I don’t take this subject lightly. When a man of God tells one of an ailment they have had for several years, that has never been spoken of to another human being and then pronounces the Lord is healing you, and it happens these facts are hard for me to ignore. This happened to me, and that healing has remained for over 20 years. I do not believe a man healed me I believe an obedient vessel was used by a living God to speak to me and touch my body. So when I read opinions such as the ones stated in chapter 12 of “Things That Differ” I ask myself what is the purpose? I’ll let you answer that for yourself. Just as no man can tell you, you did not have an encounter with a risen savior when you were born again, no man’s teaching can tell me I did not have a word of knowledge spoken to me and a gift of healing bestowed on my body, none of which was earned or deserved.

From pages 147 & 148

147
Some hold that all true believers today do possess the miraculous powers of
Pentecost, since our Lord, in His "great commission," explicitly said: "And these
signs shall follow them that believe. . ." (Mark 16:17,18). Others believe that
certain people are granted the power to work miracles, especially miracles of
healing. Notwithstanding these claims, however, God is not bestowing
miraculous powers upon men today. If the "great commission" with its
Pentecostal signs were indeed being carried out today there would be no
question about miracles, for saved and unsaved alike were compelled to
acknowledge the mighty miracles of the Pentecostal era63 (Acts 3:11, 4:14,16, etc.).
148
As to alleged evidence of the supernatural powers of present day Pentecostalist
"healers": the Roman Church, the Unity movement, Christian Scientists, and
others who claim healing powers can present "evidences" fully as convincing.
Are their powers, then, also God-given?

Is the implication here the gifts of the Spirit today are the works of the devil? Where have we heard this type of accusation before?

Luke 11: 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

From page 147 & 148
63 Note: we refer to supernatural gifts and demonstrations. We recognize, of course, that miracles are
being performed all about us constantly, but while God, for example, may miraculously heal the sick,
according to His will, He does not use "divine healers" to accomplish this,(but he does use obedient and willing members of His body as a conduit for his healing power) nor have we the right to claim
physical health in the present dispensation. As one has said: "Despite the 'divine healers,' the death rate is still one apiece!" Cute phrase, but has little scriptural relevance, Those that Jesus healed and even raised from the dead, died as well, what does that prove? When Jesus walked the earth he did not heal every single person every time.

Mark 6: 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

From page 148
“The absence of these miraculous powers in the church today must, therefore, have another explanation” Could it be that teaching such as this has a part to play. These Gifts are not missing in all churches today, just those that by man's teaching have pushed them out.

From page 151
“Indeed, in his first letter to the Corinthians, the apostle made it clear that their
miraculous powers were to be withdrawn:
"CHARITY [LOVE] NEVER FAILETH: BUT WHETHER THERE BE
PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY
SHALL CEASE; WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH
AWAY" (I Cor. 13:8).
Certainly Paul did not mean that supernatural predictions would fail to come
true, nor that men would stop talking or knowing. He referred to the miraculous
gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. These were to be "done away."
"AND NOW ABIIDETH FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY [LOVE], THESE THREE;
BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY [LOVE]" (I Cor. 13:13).”

Notice the selective use of scripture, picking out verse 8 & 13 to try to make a point but ignoring 9 thru 12. When will these gifts be done away with? Not addressed by the author.

1 Corin 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I‘ve often read from those that take this view, that the canon of scripture is that which is perfect. So now we have our bibles the gifts are not needed. Christ is that which is perfect. When He comes those gifts will be done away with, not until.

1 Corin 13: 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

“But then face to face ” is the “when that which is perfect is come”

My friend believe what you want , but all of the gifts of the spirit are still with the church today where they have not been taught out of existence.

From page 152

“TAKING PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES
The gift of healing, then, was being withdrawn as Paul wrote his early
epistles. God, however, was replacing it with something better, for we are
"blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" (Eph. 1:3). Indeed, our
high and holy calling, our perfect position in Christ, our spiritual wealth, might
well puff us up did not God allow us to be visited with bodily affliction (II Cor.
12:7). Meantime He assures us: "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength
is made perfect in weakness (II Cor. 12:9). Thus these afflictions become
blessings in disguise and serve to draw us closer to God. This is why the
Apostle Paul goes on to say:
"... MOST GLADLY THEREFORE WILL I RATHER GLORY IN MY
INFIRMITIES, THAT THE POWER OF CHRIST MAY REST UPON ME.
"THEREFORE I TAKE PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES, IN REPROACHES, IN
NECESSITIES, IN PERSECUTIONS, IN DISTRESSES FOR CHRIST’S SAKE:
FOR WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN AM I STRONG" (II Cor. 12: 9, 10).”

Paul’s thorn often used to support error. I’ll just make a few points to avoid a lengthy discussion.

1. How many in the church today have had the “abundance of the revelations” that Paul had? If not don’t try to claim this thorn. This thorn was a messenger of satan (demonic) . How many in the church today want to claim their own personal demon?

2. Paul never said sickness, he did say infirmities which is same greek word translated as weakness in 12:10.

3. Here are the words Paul used to describe his thorn in 2 Corin 11: 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Of those things listed by Paul as infirmities or his thorn ,there was no mention of sickness and disease as some try to teach.

2 Corin 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul already told us what he meant by infirmities in 2 Corin 11:23-30 it was not sickness. His thorn by his own words are summarized in 2 Corin 12:10

2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

4. Jesus and his disciples cast out demons, were they all dealt with so the church today does not have to be bothered with them? I think not.

I saw not one solid scriptural argument to back the claim the gifts of the spirit have ceased. Only human reasoning arguments, miss use of scripture, and catchy clichés. I would also recommend reading this book, but just remember it is written by a man and not without flaws.

 

[random person]

1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thess. 4 is speaking of the destruction of the temple and the passing of the Old Covenant!

The Last Trump is the destruction of the temple.

The dead are raised from sheol or paradise or Abraham's bosom.

We are changed, covenantally transformed, the Old Covenant finally met its final demise and the New Covenant is officially innaugerated forever and ever and ever and ever through all eternity.

Spiritual death/sin-death/separation from God is put under the feet of Christ.

 

[Straightshot]

"The Last Trump is the destruction of the temple"


Ha Ha .... this gets wilder by the minute

Where in Corinthians 15:51-58 is what you just exclaimed?

Not there .... do you enjoy making up your own story?

I think so

 

[Bible2]

Postvieww said in post 41:

These Gifts are not missing in all churches today, just those that by man's teaching have pushed them out.

Good point.

For the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4,5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12,13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

--

Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 42:

The dead are raised from sheol or paradise or Abraham's bosom.

All obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was (decades before 70 AD) a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

random person said in post 42:

Spiritual death/sin-death/separation from God is put under the feet of Christ.

While there is the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

 

[random person]

"The Last Trump is the destruction of the temple"


Ha Ha .... this gets wilder by the minute

Where in Corinthians 15:51-58 is what you just exclaimed?

Not there .... do you enjoy making up your own story?

I think so

1 Cor. 15:52!

 

[Danoh]

Danoh, I did read the book you have mentioned in many of your posts. Interesting read. Gives much insight into how some interpret scripture, but it is not without error. One chapter jumped out at me as being mostly false in its assertions and conclusions. I will comment on a few points raised in that chapter. I will never cease to be amazed at the lengths some will go to to strip mine the supernatural from the scriptures. Not just on the subject of the gifts of the spirit and healing buts other topics as well. I do not write this to try to have a scriptural debate with you or anyone else, but give some perspective to the book you so faithfully promote on these forums. I have personally been a beneficiary of the operation of the gift of a word of knowledge and the gift of healing so I don’t take this subject lightly. When a man of God tells one of an ailment they have had for several years, that has never been spoken of to another human being and then pronounces the Lord is healing you, and it happens these facts are hard for me to ignore. This happened to me, and that healing has remained for over 20 years. I do not believe a man healed me I believe an obedient vessel was used by a living God to speak to me and touch my body. So when I read opinions such as the ones stated in chapter 12 of “Things That Differ” I ask myself what is the purpose? I’ll let you answer that for yourself. Just as no man can tell you, you did not have an encounter with a risen savior when you were born again, no man’s teaching can tell me I did not have a word of knowledge spoken to me and a gift of healing bestowed on my body, none of which was earned or deserved.

From pages 147 & 148

147
Some hold that all true believers today do possess the miraculous powers of
Pentecost, since our Lord, in His "great commission," explicitly said: "And these
signs shall follow them that believe. . ." (Mark 16:17,18). Others believe that
certain people are granted the power to work miracles, especially miracles of
healing. Notwithstanding these claims, however, God is not bestowing
miraculous powers upon men today. If the "great commission" with its
Pentecostal signs were indeed being carried out today there would be no
question about miracles, for saved and unsaved alike were compelled to
acknowledge the mighty miracles of the Pentecostal era63 (Acts 3:11, 4:14,16, etc.).
148
As to alleged evidence of the supernatural powers of present day Pentecostalist
"healers": the Roman Church, the Unity movement, Christian Scientists, and
others who claim healing powers can present "evidences" fully as convincing.
Are their powers, then, also God-given?

Is the implication here the gifts of the Spirit today are the works of the devil? Where have we heard this type of accusation before?

Luke 11: 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

From page 147 & 148
63 Note: we refer to supernatural gifts and demonstrations. We recognize, of course, that miracles are
being performed all about us constantly, but while God, for example, may miraculously heal the sick,
according to His will, He does not use "divine healers" to accomplish this,(but he does use obedient and willing members of His body as a conduit for his healing power) nor have we the right to claim
physical health in the present dispensation. As one has said: "Despite the 'divine healers,' the death rate is still one apiece!" Cute phrase, but has little scriptural relevance, Those that Jesus healed and even raised from the dead, died as well, what does that prove? When Jesus walked the earth he did not heal every single person every time.

Mark 6: 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

From page 148
“The absence of these miraculous powers in the church today must, therefore, have another explanation” Could it be that teaching such as this has a part to play. These Gifts are not missing in all churches today, just those that by man's teaching have pushed them out.

From page 151
“Indeed, in his first letter to the Corinthians, the apostle made it clear that their
miraculous powers were to be withdrawn:
"CHARITY [LOVE] NEVER FAILETH: BUT WHETHER THERE BE
PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY
SHALL CEASE; WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH
AWAY" (I Cor. 13:8).
Certainly Paul did not mean that supernatural predictions would fail to come
true, nor that men would stop talking or knowing. He referred to the miraculous
gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. These were to be "done away."
"AND NOW ABIIDETH FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY [LOVE], THESE THREE;
BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY [LOVE]" (I Cor. 13:13).”

Notice the selective use of scripture, picking out verse 8 & 13 to try to make a point but ignoring 9 thru 12. When will these gifts be done away with? Not addressed by the author.

1 Corin 13: 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I‘ve often read from those that take this view, that the canon of scripture is that which is perfect. So now we have our bibles the gifts are not needed. Christ is that which is perfect. When He comes those gifts will be done away with, not until.

1 Corin 13: 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

“But then face to face ” is the “when that which is perfect is come”

My friend believe what you want , but all of the gifts of the spirit are still with the church today where they have not been taught out of existence.

From page 152

“TAKING PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES
The gift of healing, then, was being withdrawn as Paul wrote his early
epistles. God, however, was replacing it with something better, for we are
"blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" (Eph. 1:3). Indeed, our
high and holy calling, our perfect position in Christ, our spiritual wealth, might
well puff us up did not God allow us to be visited with bodily affliction (II Cor.
12:7). Meantime He assures us: "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength
is made perfect in weakness (II Cor. 12:9). Thus these afflictions become
blessings in disguise and serve to draw us closer to God. This is why the
Apostle Paul goes on to say:
"... MOST GLADLY THEREFORE WILL I RATHER GLORY IN MY
INFIRMITIES, THAT THE POWER OF CHRIST MAY REST UPON ME.
"THEREFORE I TAKE PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES, IN REPROACHES, IN
NECESSITIES, IN PERSECUTIONS, IN DISTRESSES FOR CHRIST’S SAKE:
FOR WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN AM I STRONG" (II Cor. 12: 9, 10).”

Paul’s thorn often used to support error. I’ll just make a few points to avoid a lengthy discussion.

1. How many in the church today have had the “abundance of the revelations” that Paul had? If not don’t try to claim this thorn. This thorn was a messenger of satan (demonic) . How many in the church today want to claim their own personal demon?

2. Paul never said sickness, he did say infirmities which is same greek word translated as weakness in 12:10.

3. Here are the words Paul used to describe his thorn in 2 Corin 11: 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Of those things listed by Paul as infirmities or his thorn ,there was no mention of sickness and disease as some try to teach.

2 Corin 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul already told us what he meant by infirmities in 2 Corin 11:23-30 it was not sickness. His thorn by his own words are summarized in 2 Corin 12:10

2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

4. Jesus and his disciples cast out demons, were they all dealt with so the church today does not have to be bothered with them? I think not.

I saw not one solid scriptural argument to back the claim the gifts of the spirit have ceased. Only human reasoning arguments, miss use of scripture, and catchy clichés. I would also recommend reading this book, but just remember it is written by a man and not without flaws.

My own time in the Word studying this gifts/healings issue out has lead me to a distinction even sharper than Stam's.

Still, while I disagree with you, I'll respect your stated desire not to present my arguments.

Also, I want to thank you for the grace you have shown as to Stam's book. You laid things out as he wrote them and followed that with the reasons behind your view. Though I see you did not understand some of what he asserted nor its basis, nevertheless, you did not distort, nor misrepresent his words. Believe me, few have been as fair.

I do wonder if you read the entire book as laid out, as understanding his assertions as to healings/gifts, etc., is based on the foundation the book laid out.

Again, thank you for your sincerity.

 

[random person]

LaHaye and 1 Corinthians 15:51​

This text speaks of the change of living Christians. We will have much to say in in depth studies on 1 Corinthians 15 in later lessons. However, the specific text in the forefront of our discussion is verse 51. Let's address it by asking a question. If something is going to happen in the lifetime of an individual would that not be a brief period of time? James answers. What is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a short time then it vanishes away,(4:13, 14). It dissipates or disappears through physical demise and death.

Now, if we have established that the lifespan of men is short, then for an event to happen within the lifetime of men is a reference to a short time. Only in relative comparison can it be styled a long time, i.e. compared to other matters of temporal brevity as in Matthew 25:19 To the Corinthians, Paul said, "we" shall not all sleep, but "we" shall all be changed. Tim Lahaye eschatology says this is the Rapture.

To this Corinthian readers, Paul's words are "We" meaning his first century audience would not all sleep (a euphemism for death). Thus, this resurrection of which Paul writes would occur in their day and time. If this were the Rapture, it occurred in their lifetime. Tim Lahaye eschatology cannot evade the imminent reference.

This is why Paul earlier wrote to the Corinthians that (1) they would live until the day of Christ, (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8); (2) that they were then undergoing the present distress (thlipsis, i.e. great tribulation), [3] that the time was short, 7:26 and [4] the world was at that time passing away and [5] the end of the ages had come upon them, 1 Corinthians 10:11.

We cannot therefore place events emphatically said to happen in the days of first century saints in our day and time and claim they are imminent to us. Expecting an imminent endtime today is no more effective than expecting and imminent first coming of Christ today.

1 Thessalonians 4 Versus Tim Lahaye Eschatology​

Tim Lahaye Eschatology Misinterprets 1 Thessalonians 4 Tim Lahaye, as many others who believe in the Rapture, that 1 Thessalonians is their text. Once again, we point you to the time statements inspired by the Holy Spirit in the text. Paul writes "We who are alive and remain" until the coming of the Lord. Again this was written to the first century church. They had valid reason do expect an imminent return as Tim LaHaye eschatology acknowledges. See the Rapture.

However, there is no Rapture in the text. In addition, the Thessalonicans were then in the tribulation. "So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations (thlipsesin)that you endure. Remember Jesus words to his disciple. "He that shall endure to the end, shall be saved. The Thessalonicans were being admonished to endure to the end until the arrival of the Parousia.

Tim LaHaye Eschatology Missing it on the Rapture​

Apparently, Tim Lahaye eschatology fails to carry through on the imagery presented in the New Testament. For this reason, he allows his Pre-Tribulation view of 1 Thessalonians to cloud the meaning of the text. Having shown the events were scheduled for and experience during the lifetime of first century saints, let's take a look at the prepared place.

Caught Up Together In The Air​

According to Tim Lahaye eschatology and others who believe in the Rapture, the catching up of saints together to be with the Lord in the air means to be raptured in the clouds.

"Air is used metaphorically in the scriptures to speak of the realm of authority and influence. In Ephesians 2:2, Satan is called the prince of the power of the air. The war in which the saints engaged the devil was in "high places." However, Satan was cast out, Luke 10:18; Revelation 12:7-12. Clouds are symbols of the presence of God. These are not references to literal clouds and air.

Tim Lahaye eschatology takes the language of clouds and air and being caught up in them to be literal, yet he rejects the time statements to mean imminent on the first century. He writes that every generation should believe in an imminent return, but an event cannot be imminent to everyone. Apparently, Tim Lahaye does not see his contradiction.

F.F. Bruce comments on 1 Thessalonians and the meaning of "to meet the Lord." When a dignitary paid an official visit (parousia) to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escort him back on the final stage of his journey was called the apantesis. So Cicero, describing Julius Caeser's progress through Italy in 49 C.C., says , Just imagine what apanteseis he is receiving from the town, what honors are paid to him!: (Ad Att. 8:16. 2), and five years later he says much the same about Caesar's, adopted son Octavian: " The municipalities are showing the boy remarkable favor...Wonderful apanteseis and encouragement!" (Ad Att.16:11.6). Compare with Matthew 25:6 where the bridal party is summoned to go out and meet the bride groom (eis apantesis autou), so as to escort him with a torchlight procession to the banqueting hall, and Acts 28:15, where Christians from Rome walk south along the Appian Way to meet Paul and his company (eis apantesin hemin) and escort them on the remainder of their journey to Rome.

These analogies (especially in association with the term Parousia) suggest the possibility that the Lord is pictured here as escorted on the remainder of this journey to earth by his people--both those newly raised from the dead and those who have remained alive. But there is nothing in the word apantesis or in this context which demands this interpretation; it cannot be determined from what is said here whether the Lord (with his people) continues his journey to earth or returns to heaven. Similarly it is not certain whether the Son of Man, coming in the clouds" (Mark 13:26 par.' 14:62 par.), is on his way to earth or (as in Dan. 7:13) to the throne of God." F.F. Bruce, Word Biblical Commentary, 1 Thessalonians p. 102-103.

While nothing in the word suggests this is the meaning Paul gives the word, the examples are all very clear both from history and Scripture. The meaning of many words are only established in the context in which they are used. For example, the same is true for "resurrection" from anastasis. The context must bear out whether it is the resurrection of the body, a cause, or from sin, whether literal or spiritual.

Speaking more particularly of the prepared place, John writes, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God." (Revelation 21: 2, 3) This is contrary to the picture Tim Lahaye paints for us.

We have here a picture of the "prepared" place that comes down out of heaven, the place to which Jesus went to prepare it. It came within the "at hand" and "shortly to come to pass" time frame of the message of Revelation. God is with them in the New Jerusalem tabernacle, of which John says we shall go no more out. (3:12).

Hence we are ever with the Lord. It comes after the resurrection of Revelation 20, hence 1 Thessalonians 4, and meets all the criteria for Jesus' coming within their lifetime. Yet it does not mention a Rapture from the earth, but a coming of God to be with men through his Presence in within the New Jerusalem which Paul says is his spiritual body, the church, Hebrews 12:22, 23. It shows that Tim Lahaye eschatology cannot meet the demands of sound exegesis of the text.

Tim Lahaye Eschatology

 

[Bible2]

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

Paul said, "we" shall not all sleep, but "we" shall all be changed.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51, "we shall all be changed" refers to all "we" believers who will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), as distinguished from "them" (1 Thessalonians 4:17), those dead believers whose bodies will be physically resurrected from their graves at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52,51). Both those believers whose living bodies will be changed into physical immortality, and those believers whose dead bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:52-53), will then be physically "caught up together" (raptured) from the earth into the sky at the 2nd coming to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

This is why Paul earlier wrote to the Corinthians that (1) they would live until the day of Christ, (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8) . . .

1 Corinthians 1:8 doesn't require that the 1st century AD Corinthian Christians would be preserved physically "alive" until Jesus' 2nd coming, which remains unfulfilled today. It only requires they could be "blameless" until the 2nd coming, no matter whether they were still physically alive by that time or had been physically dead for thousands of years.

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

. . . [3] that the time was short, 7:26 . . .

In 1 Corinthians 7:29, "the time is short" should be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming. I.e. short/quickly in these verses should be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

. . . [5] the end of the ages had come upon them, 1 Corinthians 10:11.

1 Corinthians 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26 saying the "end" of the world had come in the 1st century AD is like someone today on a Friday saying "the weekend is here!", in that both mean multiple "days" have yet to come.

The "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

However, there is no Rapture in the text.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

Clouds are symbols of the presence of God.

Hebrews 12:1 refers to a singular, already existing, and figurative "cloud" of Old Testament witnesses (Hebrews 11), and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30, and Revelation 1:7 refer to plural, not yet existing clouds which will be literal, like Luke 9:34's literal cloud (up on a mountain: Luke 9:28). But the clouds of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:30, and Revelation 1:7 will be up in the sky (the 1st heaven), the literal air, like Acts 1:9's literal cloud was "up" in the sky, and like the literal cloud in which the 2 witnesses will ascend physically to heaven (Revelation 11:12).

That is, Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

At his 2nd coming, Jesus will be literally seen in literal clouds (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), just as lightning is seen in literal clouds (Matthew 24:27). Also, the literal clouds in Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 won't have to cover the raptured church in the sky from the view of the world while the church is being judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and then the obedient part of the church gets married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the sky (the 1st heaven) (Revelation 19:14).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

. . . it cannot be determined from what is said here whether the Lord (with his people) continues his journey to earth or returns to heaven.

Note that no scripture requires believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

Similarly it is not certain whether the Son of Man, coming in the clouds (Mark 13:26 par.' 14:62 par.), is on his way to earth or (as in Dan. 7:13) to the throne of God.

Daniel 7 doesn't necessarily refer to the Ancient of days and to the Son of man (who is Jesus: e.g. Matthew 16:13) as being different people. For the description of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9 matches the description of the Son of man in Revelation 1:13-14. And the judgment of people occurring in front of the throne of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9-10 matches the judgments of people occurring in front of the throne of the Son of man in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 (cf. John 5:22).

Also, when Daniel 7:13 says that the Son of man came "to" the Ancient of days, the original Chaldean word (ad: H5705) translated as "to" corresponds to a Hebrew word (ad: H5704) which can be translated as "when" (Psalms 71:18, Jonah 4:2). So Daniel 7:13b can refer to "when" the Ancient of days will come, which will be when the Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), which will be at his (never fulfilled) 2nd coming to the earth (Matthew 24:30), which will be when the Ancient of days will come to the earth immediately after the tribulation to set up the millennial aspect of his kingdom on the earth with the physically-resurrected church (Daniel 7:21-22, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). So when Daniel 7:13b says "they brought him near before him", that can refer to angels bringing the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) before the returned Son of man/Ancient of days to be judged and given to the burning flame (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

The Son of man can be the Ancient of days because the Son of man is "from everlasting" (Micah 5:2c, John 8:58, John 17:5).

random person quoted a web page in post 48:

. . . a coming of God to be with men through his Presence in within the New Jerusalem which Paul says is his spiritual body, the church, Hebrews 12:22, 23.

Hebrews 12:22 and Ephesians 2:6 can refer figuratively to salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

Revelation 21:2,9,10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else, like how in Matthew 21:19, the fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the 12 apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's 12 tribes on them (Revelation 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

 

[random person]

Rosh ha-Shanah.
The observance of the 1st of Tishri as Rosh ha-Shanah, the most solemn day next to Yom Kippur, is based principally on the traditional law to which the mention of "Zikkaron" (= "memorial day"; Lev. xxiii. 24) and the reference of Ezra to the day as one "holy to the Lord" (Neh. viii. 9) seem to point. The passage in Psalms (lxxxi. 5) referring to the solemn feast which is held on New Moon Day, when the shofar is sounded, as a day of "mishpaṭ" (judgment) of "the God of Jacob" is taken to indicate the character of Rosh ha-Shanah. Rosh ha-Shanah is the most important judgment-day, on which all the inhabitants of the world pass for judgment before the Creator, as sheep pass for examination before the shepherd (R. H. i. 2; See Day of Judgment). Three books of account are opened on Rosh ha-Shanah wherein the fate of the wicked, the righteous, and those of an intermediate class (not utterly wicked) are recorded. The names of the righteous are immediately inscribed, and they are sealed "to live." The middle class are allowed a respite of ten days till Yom Kippur, to repent and become righteous (R. H. 16b); the wicked are "blotted out of the book of the living" (Ps. lxix. 28).

The zodiac sign of the balance for Tishri is claimed to indicate the scales of judgment, balancing the meritorious against the wicked acts of the person judged. The taking of an annual inventory of accounts on Rosh ha-Shanah is adduced by R. Naḥman b. Isaac from the passage in Deut. xi. 12, which says that the care of God is directed from "the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year" (R. H. 8a). The 1st of Tishri was considered by the best authorities as the beginning of Creation; e.g., by R. Eliezer, against the opinion of R. Joshua, however, who held the 1st of Nisan as the first day of Creation (R. H. 11a; Targ. Jonathan on Gen. vii. 11, counts the second month as Marḥeshwan). On Rosh ha-Shanah the means of sustenance of every person are apportioned for the ensuing year (B. B. 10a); so also are his destined losses. The indications of the weather prognostications, according to R. Zebid, may likewise be ascertained on Rosh ha-Shanah: If the day be warm, it indicates a warm year; if cold, it foretells generally a cold year (ib. 147a).

The Second Day.
Only the 1st of Tishri was celebrated as New-Year's Day in Palestine prior to the time of R. Johanan b. Zakkai; but ever since, Palestine, like other countries, observes Rosh ha-Shanah for two days (see Palestine, Laws Relating to). The Zohar lays stress on the universal observance of two days, and claims that the two passages in Job (i. 6 and ii. 1), "when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord," refer to the first and second days of Rosh ha-Shanah, observed by the Heavenly Court before the Almighty (Zohar, Pineḥas, p. 231a).

For the services on Rosh ha-Shanah, see Prayer; for the ceremony and significance of the shofar-calls, see Shofar; and for the ceremony of "tashlik" on the first day of Rosh ha-Shanah, see Tashlik; see, also, Day of Judgment; Greeting, Forms of; Month; Seliḥot.

NEW-YEAR - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[random person]

The Seventh Trumpet (11:15-19)​

In conformity with the Biblical pattern uniting the ideas of sabbath and consummation, the Trumpet of the seventh angel announces that "the Mystery of God" has been fulfilled and accomplished (cf. 10:6-7). At this point in history God's plan is made apparent: He has placed Jews and Gentiles on equal footing in the Covenant. The destruction of apostate Israel and the Temple revealed that God had created a new nation, a new Temple, as Jesus had prophesied to the Jewish leaders: "Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it" (Matt. 21:43). Later Jesus told his disciples what would be the effect of the destruction of Jerusalem: "At that time will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30). Marcellus Kik explains: "The judgment upon Jerusalem was the sign of the fact that the Son of Man was reigning in heaven. There has been misunderstanding due to the reading of this verse, as some have thought it to be 'a sign in heaven.' But this is not what the verse says; it says the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. The phrase 'in heaven' defines the locality of the Son of Man and not of the sign. A sign was not to appear in the heavens, but the destruction of Jerusalem was to indicate the rule of the Son of Man in heaven."***

***The common rendering in modern versions of the Bible ("then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky") simply reflects the unbiblical biases of a few translators and editors. The more literal translations in the King James Version is what the Greek text says.

Kik continues: "The apostle Paul states in the eleventh chapter of Romans that the fall of the Jews was a blessing to the rest of the world. He speaks of it as the enriching of the Gentiles and the reconciling of the world. The catastrophe of Jerusalem really signalized the beginning of a new and world-wide kingdom, marking the full separation of the Christian Church from legalistic Judaism. The whole system of worship, so closely associated with Jerusalem and the Temple, received, as it were, a death blow from God himself. God was now through with the Old Covenant made at Sinai: holding full sway was the sign of the New Covenant.

Thus the Kingdom of God, the "Fifth Kingdom" prophesied in Daniel 2, becomes universalized, as the heavenly choir sings: The kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever. The final dissociation of Christianity from Judaism means that it is now a worldwide religion. The Kingdom of God now begins the process of encompassing and enveloping all kingdoms of the world. The earth will be regenerated. This became clear with the fall of Jerusalem, the sign that Christ indeed ascended to His heavenly throne and was ruling the nations, pouring out wrath and tribulation upon His enemies at the request of His praying Church. The Roman armies who annihilated Jerusalem, massacring and enslaving its inhabitants, were His armies (Dan. 9:26), fulfilling His Word (Deut. 28:49-68).

It terms of the Biblical calender, the "seventh trumpet" was sounded on Tishri 1, the first day of the seventh month in the liturgical year, and of the first month in the civil year: Rosh Hashanah, the Day of Trumpets. Ernest L. Martin has pointed out a number of interesting aspects of the Day of Trumpets that bear directly on the significance of the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation: "Before the period of the Exodus in the time of Moses, this was the day which apparently began the biblical year. It also looks like this was the day when many people were advanced one year of life - no matter at what month of the year they were actually born. Notice that the patriarch Noah became 601 years of age 'in the first month [Tishri], the first day of the month [later to be called the Day of Trumpets]' (Gen. 8:13). That was the very day when 'Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry' (v. 13). This was not only Noah's official birthday, it became a new birth for the earth as well . . . . Even the first day of creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1-5 could be reckoned to this very day . . . . Since the Autumn apparently commenced all biblical years before the Exodus, and since all the fruit was on the trees ready for Adam and Eve to eat (Gen. 1:29; 2:9, 16-17) it suggests that . . . . the first day of creation mentioned in Genesis was also the first of Tishri (at least Moses no doubt intended to give that impression). This means that not only the birthday of the new earth in Noah's day was what later became the Day of Trumpets, but it was also the day which ushered in the original creation of the earth.

". . . . The majority opinion of Jewish elders (which still dominates the services of the synagogues) was that the Day of Trumpets was a memorial day that commemorated the beginning of the world. Authorized opinion prevailed that the first of Tishri was the first day of Genesis 1:1-5. It 'came to be regarded as the birthday of the world' (M'Clintock & Strong, Cyclopaedia, vol. X, p. 568). It was even more than an anniversary of the physical creation. ' Judaism regards New Year's Day not merely as an anniversary of creation, but - more importantly - as a renewal of it. This is when the world is reborn (Theodor H Gaster, Festivals of the Jewish Year, p. 109) . . . .

To be continued! More later!

 

[random person]

"Each of the Jewish months was officially introduced by the blowing of trumpets (Num. 10:10). Since the festival year (in which all of the Mosaic festivals were found) was seven months long, the last month (Tishri) was the last month for a trumpet introduction. This is one of the reasons that the day was called 'the Day of Trumpets.' The 'last trump' in the series was always sounded on this day - so, it was the final trumpets' day (Lev.23:24; Num. 29:1).

"This was the exact day that many of the ancient kings and rulers of Judah reckoned as their inaugeration day of rule . . . . Indeed, it was customary that the final ceremony in the coronation of kings was the blowing of trumpets. For Solomon: 'Blow ye the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon' (1 Kings 1:34). For Jehu: "They blew with the trumpets, saying, Jehu is king' (2 Kings 9:13). At the enthronement of Jehoash: 'The people of the land rejoiced, and blew the trumpets' (2 Kings 11:14)."

M. D. Goulder summarizes the significance of Rosh Hashanah: "New Year is the Jewish equivalent of the Christian Advent: it combines joy at the thought of the ultimate coming of God's reign with penitence at the thought of the judgment which that reign will bring. It is marked by the blowing of the Shofar (Lev. 23:24), to proclaim the day (keryxate, Joel 2:15); and by the three proper benedictions, the Malkuyot, the Zikronot, and the Shofarot. Each of these comprises ten versesof Scripture: the first on the kingship of God, looking forward to his ultimate reign (e.g. Zech. 14:9); the second on God's remembering of men's deeds to judge or reward, and his remembering of his covenant; the third on the blowing of the Shofar, from Sinai to the last trumpet which shall gather the dispersion to Jerusalem."

All this would naturally be in the minds of St. John and his first-century audience at the mention of the great Seventh Trumpet. Now, he adds a new dimension of symbolism, by showing the Christians significance of Rosh Hashanah, that to which it had always pointed: The Day of Trumpets is the Beginning of the New World, the New Creation, the coronation-day of the King of kings, when he is enthroned as supreme Judge over the whole world. In fact, as we will see in Chapter 12, the significance of Tishri 1 is regarded by St. John - theologically, if not "actually" - as the birthday of Jesus Christ. For now, however, he presents it as the Birthday of the New Creation, the fruit of the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ and His saints.

- from Days of Vengeance by David Chilton. Pgs. 286-290

More may be continued. I am not sure I will post up more from this dynamic scholarly exposition on the whole book of Revelation by a postmillennial dominionist turned Covenantal Eshatologist. He converted to Covenantal Eschatology AFTER this book was published.

 

[random person]

The rest of this chapter is only around three pages long. I will post it up tomorrow or a later date when it is more coveniant. God bless!

This 700 + page book is brilliant even though there are some postmillennial and dominionist aspects that pop up in the text I choose to overlook. They are infrequent fortunately.

BRILLIANT AND SCHOLARLY!

You'll never read the Book of Revelation with the same ol' plain ultra-literal meaning ever again!

 

[Straightshot]

"You'll never read the Book of Revelation with the same ol' plain ultra-literal meaning ever again!"


Wanta bet?

I read what you are posting long ago and not impressed with DC

 

[Bible2]

random person quoted from Chilton in post 51:

Later Jesus told his disciples what would be the effect of the destruction of Jerusalem: "At that time will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

random person quoted from Chilton in post 51:

The phrase 'in heaven' defines the locality of the Son of Man . . .

Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

random person quoted from Chilton in post 51:

God was now through with the Old Covenant made at Sinai: holding full sway was the sign of the New Covenant.

"... what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In Matthew 24:3, the original Greek word (aion: G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

It is sometimes claimed the end of the age refers to the end of the Old-Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

--

random person said in post 53:

You'll never read the Book of Revelation with the same ol' plain ultra-literal meaning ever again!

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

 

[random person]

Here is more from Days of Vengeance:

The Faithful Witness (Revelation 10:5-7)​

The Angel-Witness swears that there shall be delay no longer, but in the days of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the Mystery of God is accomplished. The word Mystery does not mean something "mysterious" in our modern sense, but rather "something formerly concealed and now unveiled." It is revelation: knowledge that God formerly withheld, but has now "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (Eph. 3:5), a mystery "that has been hidden from past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints" (Col. 1:26). This "Mystery" is a major aspect of the letters to the Ephesians and Colossians: the union of believing Jews and Gentiles in one Church, without distinction; "that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Jesus Christ through the Gospel" (Eph. 3:6). Gentiles, who had been strangers and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and from the covenantal promises, are now, through the work of Christ, full sons of Abraham, heirs of the Covenant, on an equal and indistinguishable standing with believing Jews (Eph. 2:11-22; Gal. 3). They form one "new man", one Church, one Body of Christ, in one New Covenant. And this one covenantal Kingdom, the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises, will have universal dominion: All nations will now flow to the Mountain of the Lord, as the kingdoms of the world become the one Kingdom of Christ (Rev. 11:15). The Mystery of God, the universalization of the Kingdom of God, is to be accomplished - as He preached the Gospel to His servants the prophets. The Mystery is simply the revelation of the message of the Gospel.

Pgs. 265-266