How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[Fisherking]

No, that doesn't work. Saints does not mean just Jews. Even out of the 144,000, only 10,000 are Jews. You are one of many that like to fit all of the tribes into just one -Judah.

There is no 144,000, thats a code for ALL Israel who repent, and as Zech. 13:8-9 says 1/3 of the Jews repent, since there are 15 million Jews in the world and 10 million in Israel that gives us a number of about 3-5 million who repent. The number 12 = fulness 10 = completeness so 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is just Fulness x Completeness. You seem to be one of those who try to insert the Church into receiving the promises God gave unto Israel, that will not happen.

You do not understand why they are called Jews now do you? Read Ezekiel 37 the Two Sticks Prophecy. God stated he never intended for there to be a divided nation, so he was going to make Two Sticks into One Strick. So, the Assyrians toted off the 10 Northern tribes, but no tribes were ever lost, each tribe had seed living in Judea/Jerusalem, so when God said in Isaiah He had saved Himself 7000 men, that was also a code as in 7 (Divine Completion) x 10 represents ALL Israel who eventually repents. So, there has never been any lost tribes. We know this 100 percent by reading Ezekiel 37, the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy. There in Ezekiel 37:10-14 God says He will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into the land from the nations, not half, not a few, but every tribe, the whole house of Israel, means every tribe is represented.

Now as per them being called Jews, the Northern Tribes were toted off, all the rest of the tribes lived in Judea, so they were Judeans or Jews. Just like if Italians lived in New York for 50 years they would be New Yorkers or Americans right? Well, since like 700 BC all of Israel lived in Judea, so they all became known as Jews, because it was where they lived !! So, they left via the Diaspora as Jews and were brought back in 1948 as those same people from Judea. This is why they are called Jews, but we know they are the full 12 Tribes of Israel, because Gods stated they were the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel. So, this is why they are called Jews, they lived in Judea for 700 plus years, were toted off as Judeans/Jews and brought back as Jews.

Calling the Saints Jews is just another argument to try and explain away the fact that everyone will still be here.

No, read the bible, Daniel calls them the Saints. Since Zech. 13:8-9 says 1/3 repent and Rev. 12 says God protects the 1/3 in the Petra/Bozrah area. And since we know 2/3 refuse to repent and die (Zech. 13:8-9 also), then when Dan. 12:7 says the Anti-Christ scatters the power if the Holy Peoples, he is speaking in general about Israel, but the 2/3 are not of God. Like I stated, in Rev. 17:6 we see the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus, if you can't figure that one out I can't help you sister. Its very simple, it means Jews in general/Saints and the Church of Christ.

Anyone who understands Prophesy TIMELINES can see the Pre Trib Rapture.

I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Yes, we know that Paul added in Christians as Saints, but he was the Disciple unto the Gentiles, the Saints when used by John and the Prophets always meant Israel. The Church will not be here. In Rev. 12:17 we see that the Remnant CAN NOT be Jewish, it can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, which means the Church as a whole is not on this earth at that time. I can prove 100 percent the Remnant is not Jewish.

So, the Dragon gets angry he can't get at the woman (Israel who repents) and he turns to go after the Remnant of her SEED (Read Gal. 3:16, Jesus is THAT SEED). So, the Dragon can not get at the 1/3. And the 2/3 who refused to repent can not be a Remnant because 2/3 is not a small piece left behind, it is not a Remnant, but alas, this Remnant has to have the Testimony of Jesus Christ also, as vs. 17 says, so the 2/3 who refused to repent, can not be the Remnant. So, since the Remnant can not be Jewish, it has to be Gentiles who are not protected once they do repent. And why would Gentiles repenting be a Remnant? Because the Church is IN HEAEVEN, marrying the Lamb.

 

[JulieB67]

You do not understand why they are called Jews now do you

I know that the tribes were split and the 10 went to the north and Benjamin and Judah stayed and later on went into captivity themselves, etc. You are the one still trying to fit all tribes into one. That has nothing to do with saints being all Jewish, etc. Which is what you were stating to begin with and why I said that doesn't work, saints does not mean Jewish.

Anyone who understands Prophesy TIMELINES can see the Pre Trib Rapture.

No, I used to be pretrib and both Christ and Paul's teachings can't be anymore clear. We have to take them for their word and also heed their warnings against deception on this very subject.

Yes, we know that Paul added in Christians as Saints, but he was the Disciple unto the Gentiles, the Saints when used by John and the Prophets always mean Israel.

You can't have it both ways. Again saints doesn't mean Jewish I already posted verses that stated otherwise. And when we see that, than there is no argument than that the saints in Revelation are meant as Jewish. That's my point.

Since Zech. 138-9 says 1/3 repent

This is talking about God's elect,

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

There will always be a remnant. And just because the 10 scattered abroad, God knows who they are today.

Because the Church is IN HEAEVEN, marrying the Lamb.

There is not biblical support for this.

 

[WilliamLhk]

I do not research every the because the Greek does not need to use definite articles, so most of the time they are just inserted by the translators.

Yes, the Greek does have and use the definite article, which root is G3588 in Strong's. It is used five times in Rev.7:14. But you've proven that you have no knowledge of Greek grammar, so that you have no ability to know when a translation is correct or not.
Most people these days who profess to understand End Time prophecy are only parroting what they've heard from others, and add their own spin here and there. Which makes them just like the Jews at the First Coming, who taught the people their own people-pleasing doctrine comparable to churchianity's Pre-Trib rapture. So when John the Baptist and Jesus came along and taught a far more grim and sobering prophetic outlook, they were met with ridicule and great hostility. So it is today.

 

[Fisherking]

I know that the tribes were split and the 10 went to the north and Benjamin and Judah stayed and later on went into captivity themselves, etc. You are the one still trying to fit all tribes into one. That has nothing to do with saints being all Jewish, etc. Which is what you were stating to begin with and why I said that doesn't work, saints does not mean Jewish.

No, the 10 Tribes did not go anywhere, that is why in Isaiah God says He has saved himself 7000 men which means 7 (Divine Completion) x 10 (Completion) which = ALL Israel, every tribe. You seem to think 10 tribes were lost. A tribe is represented by SEED, it can be ONE MAN that keeps the seed going, well when the Assyrians toted off the Wicked Northern Kingdoms, many people of those tribes lived in Judea. They hated the evil ways of the Northern Kingdom so they left, and they also lived in the major city Jerusalem because that is where the jobs were at. So, all 12 tribes were CONTINUALLY living in Judea, they were never lost, that bunk came from Herbert W. Armstrong the cultist who ran the Worldwide Church of God.

As per them all being called Jews, SO WHAT !!! SMH, it does not matter that they are all called Jews because they live in Judea, we know they are all 12 tribes, but their unique tribes all got lost in the shuffle over 700 years of living in Judea then 2000 years of being exiled, they only knew they were Israelis who came from Judea and were now moving back to Judea, hence they were known worldwide as Jews, but God says that those He brought back were the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, so He knows, it doesn't matter that they are all called Jews. This is not hard to understand sister. So, 100 years ago Italians, Irishmen, Aussies, Bulgarians, Russians etc. etc. all moved to America, now 100 years later their families are called Americans, why? Because they live in America. Likewise, those 12 tribes living in Judea since 700 B.C. are Judeans/Jews. So what? No one is saying they are all from the tribe of Judah or Judeans in that sense, but they just live in Judea and are thus "Jews". You are the one who can't figure that out sister. I am saying the Whole House of Israel (all 12 tribes) are living in Israel right now, and they are all known as Jews BUT are indeed the Whole House (every tribe) of Israel. So, NO ONE is saying they are one tribe, that is you not quoting me correctly. I stated, emphatically that these people who are now living in Israel are all 12 tribes, but known as Jews because they lived in the region known as Judea for 700 yeas before the 70 AD Diaspora happened, so they left as Jews and came back as Jews but they really left as all 12 tribes and came back as all 12 tribes.

Again, read Rev. 17:6 John CLARIFIES his position, the Martyrs of Jesus is DIFFERENT from the Saints of old, he saw them as Israelis only. Daniel spoke of the Saints as Israelis only. Paul the Disciple of the Gentiles called the Gentile Church Saints also, but in Rev. we are reading John, not Paul so the Saints in his writings means only the Jews. Rev. 17:6 would tell you that if you could read it and admit it. But it defeats your thesis, so you will not acknowledge the passage at all. Dodging a passage does not remove it sister.

No, I used to be pretrib and both Christ and Paul's teachings can't be anymore clear. We have to take them for their word and also heed their warnings against deception on this very subject.

It does not matter what you used to be tbh. Paul was writing letters to Churches, if he had of been writing "Thus saith the Lord" as in the Old Testament he would have been much clearer, so people like you wouldn't have gotten confused, we have to read between the lines in some case because we only have his Epistles to the churches, w do not have their letters unto him showing the full correspondence.

Still, Paul is VERY CLEAR to those who allow the full bible to give us the story of the TIMELINES. As I stated, post ANY PASSAGE you think proves the Rapture is not Pre Trib and I can easily knock it down. Try it, I can prove any passage you think proves the Pre Trib. is in error, wrong. But if you do, I will prove it in error, then the denial usually comes.

In 2 Thess. 2 Paul says the Church DEPARTS(Apo = Away From) a STANDING (Hemsti) thus we get the word that means this in Apostisia, it means the Church Departs from a STANDING, not of Faith, but of being on THIS EARTH, in 2 Thess. 2:1 shows us this Departure to be a gathering unto Christ Jesus. Its you guys who follow a bad translation as meaning apostacy. nowhere in the whole passage is Faith ever spoken of, thus how can the passage ever mean a Departure from the Faith? But, THAT CAN'T BE !! It destroys our understanding !!! Well, too bad, its not our word, its God's Word, and He means what He means, not what some people think He means. I can tell you this, God did not tell the Thessalonians via Paul, not to fear because of a DEPARTING of the Faith, then never mention FAITH anywhere in the passage, He told Paul to tell the Thessalonians not to FEAR because the Departure of the Church from this earth would com before God's Wrath falls. We can see this DEPARTURE spoken of in vs. 1, via a Gathering unto Christ Jesus. You can't speak about something you never speak about in a passage. Its just not possible.

In 1 Cor. 15 we see the Rapture of the Dead and the Living happen at the exact same time, meaning no one dies and goes straight to heave as many people think. In 1 Thess. 4 we see the Pre Trib Rapture also. In Rev. 4:1 we see the Pre Trib. Rapture happens as the Church Age (Rev. 2 & 3) ends the "Things which Are" and after this verse we see the "Things which will be Hereafter" or after the Church Age, meaning the 70th week events. I n Rev. 4:4 we see that the 24 Elders, which is a code for God's People, as can be seen in 1 Chronicles 24, where we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, and in Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:8-9 we see that the Church is called Kings and Priests in Christ. In Rev. 4:4 again, we see that these people have the very rewards promised unto this in the Church Age who OVERCAME, in Rev. 2 and 3. In Rev. 2:10 they are promised CROWNS to those who OVERCOME. In Rev. 3:5 we see those who overcome are promised White Raiment (Robes) and in Rev. 3:21 we see they are promised to sit at God's Throne.

So, Rev. 4:4 describes these people(24 Elders) in what way? They sit at God's THRONE, and they have on White Robes, and they have on Gold CROWNS !! This is God SHOUTING, this is the Church or Bride of Christ who OVERCAME !! Then in Rev. 5:8-9 we see these "people" are REDEEMED by Jesus' blood, only men need to be Redeemed by the blood of Jesus, not Angels. Thus we see these same men in Rev. 7:9-16 in Heaven, who came out of every nation, peoples, tribe etc. These are the Pre Trib Raptured Church, no people go to heaven until the Pre Trib Raptured Church. No one from the 70 week will, ever get Raptured, they are raised after the 2nd coming only, as Rev. 20:4 shows us. We see in Rev. 19 that the Church/Bride marries the Lamb, the returns with Jesus whilst the Beast is still on earth.

Point to ANY PASSAGE you think shows the Pre Trib is not factual and I can easily knock them all down, one by one. All this is pure misdirection by Satan, he loves to confuse us, of course. He never stops working.

You can't have it both ways. Again saints doesn't mean Jewish I already posted verses that stated otherwise. And when we see that, than there is no argument than that the saints in Revelation are meant as Jewish. That's my point.

Yes I can, because the Prophesies are not from Paul, they are from the Prophets in the Old Testament, and John wrote the book of Revelation. So what did John mean by Saints and what did Daniel mean by Saints. What People, the Disciple to the Gentiles meant, whilst discipling Gentile Churches matters not via Prophesies by Prophets, and John, who dictated God's book of Revelation.

This is talking about God's elect,

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

My Fav. chapter in the bible. Verses 1-6 are about the END TIMES, as is verses 8-9, BUT......verses 6-7 are about Jesus' death, so the Prophet placed events that happen 2000 years apart, the End Time Jewish Repentance, and Jesus' death which is what WASHES them via the Fountain in vs. 1. The Death happens in verses 6-7, the rest of the chapters is about the very end times (today or in the very near future, as within 10 years imho). So, by doing this, that makes the Prophesy a SUPER PROPHESY !!

This is talking only about the Jewish Elect. The Rapture is pre 70th week, this happens JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls (DOTL) as the next verse shows us, Zech. 14:1 is the DOTL arriving.

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

There will always be a remnant. And just because the 10 scattered abroad, God knows who they are today.

The Remnant in Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jews, the 1/3 can not be gotten at, so the Dragon gets ANGRY and goes after the Remnant. So, the Dragon TURNS from trying to get at the 1/3 who repent (can not be them) and goes after the Remnant who have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, and since the 2/3 never repent it can not be them can it? So, it can not be the 1/3 Jews or the 2/3 Jews, so that Remnant can only be the Remnant Gentile Church. See how you dodged the real point I made? Why sister, dodging doesn't make you win the debate point, as a matter of fact you dodging a point means you auto lose the debate.

The 10 were never scattered abroad, whilst Israel were a Nation from 700 BC until 70 AD all 12 tribes still lived in Judea. No tribes were ever lost. All 12 Tribes were taken unto all the nations and Ezekiel 37:11 says God brought all 12 tribes back (the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel) at the very end times.

There is not biblical support for this.

Rev. 19 and all the verses I pointed unto show this clearly. As a Prophesy guy for 40 years I know that which I speak of. Have a nice day sister, this is not, of course, going to keep anyone out of heaven, but God will not be pleased that we allow misinformation to seep in and seep out unto the masses.

 

[Fisherking]

Yes, the Greek does have and use the definite article, which root is G3588 in Strong's. It is used five times in Rev.7:14. But you've proven that you have no knowledge of Greek grammar, so that you have no ability to know when a translation is correct or not.
Most people these days who profess to understand End Time prophecy are only parroting what they've heard from others, and add their own spin here and there. Which makes them just like the Jews at the First Coming, who taught the people their own people-pleasing doctrine comparable to churchianity's Pre-Trib rapture. So when John the Baptist and Jesus came along and taught a far more grim and sobering prophetic outlook, they were met with ridicule and great hostility. So it is today.

You are stuck on THE'S ad THEY'S, which proves I destroyed your overall thesis. People who can't see the overall work of the holy spirit can never tie the scriptures together fully brother.

Again, what does the 5th Seal say via Jesus' own words? That no one will be Raptured during the 70th week. Again, what does Rev. 20:4 show us? That those Martyrs get raised after the 2nd coming of Jesus. What does 1 Cor 15 prove? That no humans are now in Heaven, the dead gets Raptured at the exact same tie as those of us who are alive and remain at the end (Pre Trib Rapture). So, I destroy your thesis and you are stuck in Greek words that may or may not be in the passage, and one I have already stated DOES NOT MATTER ONE WHIT, because whether they came out of Great Tribulation or THE Great Tribulation, neither is described as the GREATET EVER TRIBULATION. What I have found out debating people is when they lose a debate they will cling on to things like this that matter not in the least, because they have lost the debate. So, if it mattered, I would go study it, but of course it MATTERS NOT at all, nothing changes, those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 came out of Church Age Tribulation, or The Church Age Tribulation, which was in either case, great tribulation where millions of our brothers were killed. They did not come out of the Greatest Ever Troubles known to man, because NO ONE gets raptured during the 70th week, see Jesus' own words in the 5th Seal. See Rev. 20:4 which PROVES this point.

Now, you keep on debating THE'S and I will keep proving the overall points.

 

[keras]

The 10 were never scattered abroad

The Biblical, historical, archaeological, heraldic and linguistic record proves you wrong. Your belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong; only a Christian remnant of the House of Judah will survive to go into the Millennium.

It is God’s plan that the House of Judah, that is: the Jewish people, remain as an identifiable people group to fulfil the tasks assigned to them. In these present days, one task has been to replant and rebuild the Land.

But the 10 Northern tribes, that is, the House of Israel, have been lost to history.
Deuteronomy 32:26 says - I will cause the memory of them to cease among men.

However, the Bible does give us some clues as to who and where they might be today.

1. Who has received the blessings promised?
2. Where will they eventually come from to return to the Land?

THE BLESSINGS -
To Abraham: Father of many nations, exceedingly fruitful,
To Isaac: numberless descendants, Land given to them.

• To Jacob: The richness of the earth. Peoples will serve you. Curses on those who curse you, blessing on those who bless you.
• To the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel): See in Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33:1-29

1 Chronicles 5:1-2; states that the Birthright Blessing is given to Joseph.

In Genesis 48 Jacob blesses Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Both were to become great nations.

Deuteronomy 33:17 The 10,000s of Ephraim and the 1000s of Manasseh will push against the nations, even to the ends of the earth.

Only the British Commonwealth and the United States of America fulfil these prophecies. The other 8 tribes seem to be identifiable with the European Union nations.
Ref: The Tribes, Yair Davidy.

RETURN AND REJOINING IN THE LAND
There are over forty prophecies telling us of the House of Israel’s return to the Promised Land in the last days, so where they will migrate from gives the clues as to where they are now.

Jeremiah 31:8-10 See, I bring them from a Northern land ... gathered from the far ends of the earth.....a vast company...I am a Father to Israel and Ephraim is My eldest son.

Isaiah 49:12 They are coming, some from far away, some from the North and West and others from the land of Sinim. (Sinim - Hebrew: Southern land, Latin: Australi)

Hosea 11: They will follow the Lord and when He roars His sons will speed out of the West.

So, the main location of the lost ten tribes is in the Northwest and from there, spread around the world.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Again, what does the 5th Seal say via Jesus' own words? That no one will be Raptured during the 70th week.

Jesus says nothing about any 70th week -- EVER.
Pre-tribbers like you presume to add all kinds of their own presumptions to the Scriptures, which is why Pre-trib. is such a shamelessly vacuous doctrine.

 

[Fisherking]

However, the Bible does give us some clues as to who and where they might be today.

1. Who has received the blessings promised?
2. Where will they eventually come from to return to the Land?

No tribes were ever lost. Men are equal to seed. Men from all of the 12 tribes lived in Judea after Northern Kingdoms were toted off. You or I grasping this or not is not going to change the facts my brother.

 

[Fisherking]

Jesus says nothing about any 70th week -- EVER.

Jesus is speaking unto 70th week Martyrs, thus when he speaks unto them it is about 70th week events.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal(70th week), I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held(70th week Martyrs):

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season(1260 days is the max timeline for the Beast to rule), until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(So, they MUST WAIT until the Beasts rule of 42 months has run its course and ALL of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were killed comes to pass).

So, when you speak unto people about LITTLE SEASONS, one has to have the ability to understand what that little season means (Beasts 42 month rule, called an HOUR of rule in Rev. 17:12-13. Everything that comes after the Church Age "things that are" are called the "Hereafter" which means the 70th week actions as seen in Rev. chapters 4-19.

Pre-tribbers like you presume to add all kinds of their own presumptions to the Scriptures, which is why Pre-trib. is such a shamelessly vacuous doctrine.

I understand the bible, I do not allow other men's bad understandings to sway my thinking.

 

[JulieB67]

The 10 were never scattered abroad,

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

This means a resident in a Gentile country. Even some of Judah and Benjamin are included. But this proves that there are tribes that are scattered abroad. James's letter is to them, so they would indeed be Christians, so again, not Jews in the way you are claiming.

They were told they were going to be as the stars and and the sand of the sea. In Hosea, it tells us this number cannot be measured or numbered.That could only be possible if they were scattered across the earth. But again, God know where they are today. And will bring them together again.

Try it, I can prove any passage you think proves the Pre Trib. is in error,

I still haven't seen you prove anything. You are completely disagreeing with both Christ and Paul so I can't take you serious.

so people like you wouldn't have gotten confused,

No, people are confused because they pull verses out of context to prove a theory instead of reading chapter by chapter and verse by verse. For instance these verses should be read together,. We have to remember these are letters and there were no chapters and in many cases, the subject continues.
And remember the orginal subject is where are their dead loved ones. He goes onto to explain what will happen and that Christ will bring them with him,

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."


We can see for ourselves the original subject, where are the loved ones, and he then goes on to describe what he calls the day of the Lord. And he states "coming of the Lord" -one coming. We are to meet him in the air. Air in that verse does not mean sky or elevation. It just means the air we breathe in. And again we are meeting him and he's bringing those passed away loved ones with him. We have to apply some common sense here. If we were shooting off somewhere there would be no need to bring anyone. But that's not case. He's returning/coming, not leaving.

As I stated, post ANY PASSAGE you think proves the Rapture is not Pre Trib and I can easily knock it down.

You haven't knocked anything down and your argument is against Christ and Paul's words. When Christ states he comes immediately after the tribulation of those days I choose to believe him, not you. The mystery that Paul talks about is all are "changed" at the last trump, not raptured to heaven. There's not one verse that states anyone is raptured to heaven.

shows us this Departure to be a gathering unto Christ Jesus. Its you guys who follow a bad translation as meaning apostacy. nowhere in the whole passage is Faith ever spoken

Apostasy is defection of the truth, falling away -forsake. It coincides with Timothy's teaching as well. We cannot change the Word to suit ourselves. We all might disagree on varying things in the bible but this one is very plain to see.

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

And another example of fall/falling away is apostasy means leaving/departing the faith -

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

This is exactly why Christ and Paul tell us to not be deceived by any means.

The Remnant in Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jews, the 1/3 can not be gotten at, so the Dragon gets ANGRY and goes after the Remnant. So, the Dragon TURNS from trying to get at the 1/3 who repent (can not be them) and goes after the Remnant who have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, and since the 2/3 never repent it can not be them can it? So, it can not be the 1/3 Jews or the 2/3 Jews, so that Remnant can only be the Remnant Gentile Church. See how you dodged the real point I made? Why sister, dodging doesn't make you win the debate point, as a matter of fact you dodging a point means you auto lose the debate.

I've not dodged anything, Revelation 12 alone tells us there will indeed be Christians here on the earth during that time period. That's how they will be overcome him, by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

The verses are just as they are written, Satan and his gang will be here. Those that have the full gospel armour on (which includes the word of God) will be able to "stand" in that evil day as Paul taught. And no he didn't teach that to the Jews. We are talking Christians here. Many of the tribes today that are scattered are Christian, some not even probably realizing it, etc. But God knows.

but in Rev. we are reading John, not Paul so the Saints in his writings means only the Jews. Rev. 17:6 would tell you that if you could read it and admit it. But it defeats your thesis, so you will not acknowledge the passage at all. Dodging a passage does not remove it sister.

Again, this does not prove the saints in Revelation are just Jews.

 

[keras]

No tribes were ever lost

Jesus said they were lost; Matthew 15:24 ...I was sent to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel, to them alone.

Your failed attempts to make the Jews the Israel of God, is done mainly to support the worse belief of a pre-trib rapture to heaven of the Church. You must have the Jews undergoing Tribulation while you sit in heaven.
These beliefs are wrong, Biblically unsupported and will never happen.

The proof of Jesus fulfilling Matthew 15:24, is His success in gaining converts to Christianity, via the Apostles and evangelists of people from every tribe, race, nation and language; 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 5:9-10 [Note- every tribe]
The House of Judah, the Jewish people, still remain is apostasy, in rejection of Jesus. Their fate awaits them. Amos 2:4-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

 

[Fisherking]

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Well, James was written in 62 BC or so, before 70 AD, but how is it you can not grasp that he is writing to those of EVERY TRIBE who now lived in other parts of the world? Lets see, Chinese people probably live in most every nation around the world today also, as we speak. Just because the 12 tribes had people living all over, does not mean the 12 Tribes were not also living in Israel/Judea. Of course he had to write them, he could speak to the Jews living in Israel. And by the way, those God cast out, were never to be a part of Israel in God's eyes anymore He forsook them forever, as per being Israelis. Those God cast out, became Gentiles in God's eyes, He forsook them. But, its incredulous to me you can't understand that both can be and are true, all 12 tribes had people living around the Old World, AND those same 12 tribes can still have seed in Israel/Judea. So, he wrote unto them in a text and sent the letter, hoping the words would be spread around from church to church, and all would hear this greeting.

This means a resident in a Gentile country. Even some of Judah and Benjamin are included. But this proves that there are tribes that are scattered abroad. James's letter is to them, so they would indeed be Christians, so again, not Jews in the way you are claiming. There's not one verse that states saints are Jewish, even in Revelation.

Well, Jews now live all over the world, but they are still Jews, and thus they are Israelis from Judea, and thus they represent all 12 tribes, still. Rev. 17:6 shows John speaks about the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus. So, you are just in error on this sister. If Saints covered only those of God, why did he include the Martyrs of Jesus? That can only be answered in one way, John and God who wrote Revelation saw them as different entities entirely.

They were told they were going to be as the stars of the sea and the sand of the sea. In Hosea, it tells us this number cannot be measured or numbered.That could only be possible if they were scattered across the earth. But again, God know where they are today. And will bring them together again.

Nope, did you realize that every human now on earth could comfortably live in the state of Texas? The number of stars moniker is just God understanding that back in that time they had no concept of a Million, and of course no concept of Billions. There are Trillions of stars, so it has to be a metaphor.

I still haven't seen you prove anything. You are completely disagreeing with both Christ and Paul so that's a huge thing right there.

No sister, you just do not understand the passages by Paul and Jesus. As I stated, there is no scripture that can be put forth on anything but the pre trib rapture that I can't overcome. You saying someone else can't prove something is not a great tactical move, you do understand anyone that says you are wrong on something has you defeated by that very allegation, why? Because their whole point is you do not understand the passages being spoken about. My point is if one kid in school is convinced that 5 x 5 is 20, that still doesn't make the answer 20 does it?

No, people are confused because they pull verses out of context to prove a theory instead of reading chapter by chapter and verse by verse. For instance these verses should be read together,

I have actually been called for 40 years sister, to preach, and unto prophecy. The Pre Trib will happen very, very soon. Do you know what happens at the rapture? Why do we who are alive need to be CHANGED? Well 1 Cor. 15 tells us, the dead in Christ are raised without corruption, but why? 1 Cor. 15:44 tells us, they are raised as Spirit Men (GO READ IT) and later we are told why, in vs. 50, because Flesh & Blood CAN NOT enter Heaven. So, now do you see why we need to be CHANGED? From a living human being into Spirit Men who can thus enter heaven without corruption (sin flesh). Which means we leave our flesh bodies on this earth. Or, put simply we die and our spirit man goes to heaven, to marry the Lamb. That is the change.

We can see for ourselves the original subject, where are the loved ones, and he then goes on to describe what he calls the day of the Lord. And he states "coming of the Lord" -one coming. We are to meet him in the air. Air in that verse does not mean sky or elevation. It just means the air we breathe in. And again we are meeting him and he's bringing those passed away loved ones with him. We have to apply some common sense here. If we were shooting off somewhere there would be no need to bring anyone. But that's not case.

The DOTL is THE ONE DAY God starts taking the title deed to earth away from Satan who tricked Adam and Eve out of it. God gave DOMINION over all things unto Adam, Satan tricked him out of this, that is why Satan is over every kingdom on earth, as he tells Jesus in Luke 4. God's Wrath lasts 1260 days, not one day. Then the DOTL extends through Jesus' 1000 year reign on this earth.

You haven't knocked anything down and you're argument is against Christ and Paul's words. When Christ states he comes immediately after the tribulation of those days I choose to believe him, not you. The mystery that Paul talks about is all are "changed" at the last trump, not raptured to heaven. There's no one verse that states anyone is raptured to heaven.

There you go, you finally gave me a passage to show you why your thought process is in error sister. You "choose to believe" Jesus but do not grasp what he is saying. By the way, he does not say he will come IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days, you conflate verses 29 and 30. Jesus says the Sun and Moon goes dark immediately after the tribulation of those days [begins or starts]. Now we can read Rev. 8 later and I can explain why (not now).

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[begin] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then(1260 days LATER) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Not being called unto prophesy, I see a lot of people make these same mistakes sister. Now allow me to show you the EXACT SAME THING, in Zech. 14:1-3. We see 1/3 of Israel repents in Zech. 13:8-9 then one verse later the DOTL (God's Wrath) falls, then in vs. 2, Jerusalem is conquered/sacked. Then in vs. 3 we get another 1260 day JUMP in time and Jesus shows up just like in Matt. 24:29-30.

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (The Anti-Christ/Beast Conquers Jerusalem)

3 Then (just like in Matt. 24:29-30 we see THEN via a 1260 day jump) shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

If Prophesy was linear in nature we would have books as long as Moby Dick. So, we have to have JUMPS in time like this, a prophecy guy understands this.

So, in Joel 2:31 we see that fire is a judgment which comes as the wrath of God hits via the DOTL. In Rev. 8 we see the actual event that brings this fire. Trump #1 is an incoming asteroid breaking apart, which brings fires to 1/3 of the worlds trees, the Americas imho, it has 1/3 of the worlds landmass combined. So, just like Sodom, and asteroids sets these blazes as it fragments, except this time its going to hit, not break completely apart. Trump #2 is the asteroid impact the earthquake is the impact. Trump #3 is the Fallout or Wormwood which means poison, so what ever is in that asteroid, after the impact, it spreads a poison to the fresh waters in the 1/3 area where it hits. Finally Trump #4 is the Sun and Moon getting dimmed by 1/3 or going dark as Joel 2:31 and the 6th Seal prophecy forecasts. So, THIS(Asteroid impact) is what the Matthew 24:29 verse is pointing out that just after the TROUBLES BEGIN (DOTL/God's Wrath) via an asteroid impact (God's Wrath) we will see the Sun & Moon go dark, and a blood red moon, caused by 1/3 of the earth burning, thus we see a Red Hue from back on earth from the glows of the fires.

So, Matt. 24:30 is 1260 days AFTER the asteroid impact causes the Sun & Moon to go dark in vs. 29, that is why it says AND THEN............just like Zech. 14:3 is 1260 days AFTER Jerusalem is conquered in vs. 2. says THEN.... Both are a flash forward in time, past the 1260 days of God's wrath, and the Anti-Christs 1260 day or 42 month rule on earth. THEN...........Jesus shows up. So, Jesus NEVER CLAIMED he came immediately after, he said the Sun and Moon will go dark IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days [begin]. You know why this is EASILY PROVABLE? Because we can follow the TIMELINE in the book of Revelation, which shows The Fourth Trump (Trumps 1-4 are ONE ASTEROID EVENT which is shown in Four Phases) brings this Darkness spoken of by Jesus in vs. Matt. 24:29......NOW.....Lets go over all the other events that have to happen after Trump #4 (Matt. 24:29) to see if Jesus really comes IMMEDIATLY AFTER Matt. 24:29.

Trump #5 or the First Woe comes, we see that they can not kill humans. but they are given , FIVE MONTHS to torture these people. So, this wipes out any claim that Matt. 24:29 and 30 happen close together, at all. You see, I understand prophecy is vague, but can be PULLED OUT via study sister. Then we get the Sixth Trump or Woe #2, where 200 million Angelic beings kills 1/3 of all those men who have taken the Mark of the Beast. Then we get the 7th Trump (3rd Woe) which is all 7 Vials. This lasts 75 days in my mind because the Two-witnesses have to show up 75 days before the A.C. becomes the Beast, as Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah much come BEFORE the DOTL. Thus they must also die at least 75 days before the Beast dies, thus the 3rd Woe has to last 75 days, because they die just after the 2nd Woe, as Rev. 11 tells us. So, the First Four Trumps start at the midway point, or 1260 days before Jesus' return, then Apollyon is released at the 1st Woe, which MUST LAST 5 months, so the First Four Trumps then the 1st Woe (5th Trump) last maybe 6-8 months combined. Then we get a long undefined period where God wipes out those men who have taken the Mark of the Beast via the 5th Trump/3rd Woe, billions are killed over a long period of time. Then we get the 7th Trump/3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials.

All of this has to happen AFTER the Trumps begin God's Wrath, which is the TRIBULATION of those days. The Sun and Moon goes dark IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days as vs. 29 tells us, nowhere does it says Jesus comes back immediately after the tribulation, that is just you not putting it together properly sister, the AND THEN........or THEN...........always points to a later point in time in prophecy. You conflated verses 29 and 30.

Apostasy is defection of the truth, falling away -forsake. It coincides with Timothy's teaching as well. We cannot change the Word to suit ourselves. We all might disagree on varying things in the bible but this one is very plain to see.

Showing me OTHER VERSES that are actually talking about a Departure from the Faith does not show that 2 Thess. 2:1-6 is speaking about a Departure from the Fait, you do understand that right? 2 Thess. 2 us referring to a Gathering unto Christ Jesus. PERIOD, that is it.

I've not dodged anything, Revelation 12 alone tells us there will indeed be Christians here on the earth during that time period. That's how they will be overcome him, by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

Yes, but the word REMNANT means what? Look it up, a SMALL PART of a bigger part. A Remnant of a dress would be a sleeve, or a cuff, meaning the whole dress is not present. The Remnant in Rev. 12:17 means the Church is not on this Earth, else those who repent during the 70th week would not be called a Remnant. So, you missed the whole point.

Again, this does not prove the saints in Revelation are just Jews.

Rev. 17:16 proves 100 percent that John thought the Saints were Jews, that is the only explanation sister. He clarified that in the verse very explicitly.

 

[WilliamLhk]

There's no one verse that states anyone is raptured to heaven..

There is: Rev. 12:5 says the Manchild will be caught up to God and His throne. This is End Times. Rev. 7:14 says ones who come out of the GT will be before that same heavenly throne, so by definition they must be taken up.

 

[Fisherking]

There is: Rev. 12:5 says the Manchild will be caught up to God and His throne. This is End Times. Rev. 7:14 says ones who come out of the GT will be before that same heavenly throne, so by definition they must be taken up.

In error on both accounts, Rev. 12:5 was Jesus taken up 2000 or so years ago as the disciples looked on. Its not a Man-child, the proper translation is Male Child.

In Rev. 7:9-16, those are the Pre Trib. Raptured Church Age Servants. No one can be Raptured after the Marriage call goes out, the door is shut. Seal #5 tells us that those Martyrs will only get vengeance once the Beast has killed all the other brothers saved after the 70th week starts, like he killed them. And Rev. 20:4 proves this is true, it says these Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast are raised, judged and live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. NOTICE, if you do not die by refusing the Mark of the Beast you will not be on this earth for Jesus' 1000 year reign. So says Rev. 20:4. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 came out of great tribulation, not the greatest ever tribulation. Now, does anyone want to deny millions being killed during the church age was not great tribulation, read John 16:33 Jesus says all time on earth is tribulation.

 

[JulieB67]

The Pre Trib will happen very, very soon.

If you feel comfortable not heeding the warnings given by both Christ and Paul on this very subject, that's fine. I've still seen nothing you've posted that would prove a pretrib rapture. We need to let the simplicity within both Christ and Paul's teachings resonate with us. Both taught that his return/coming which is when our gathering back together happens will not take place until the tribulation of antichrist has taken place. The Thessalonians themselves were confused and Paul had to set them straight. We are told to watch and be watchmen so that day does not overtake one as a thief. Meaning Christians will be here and as Paul states they need to have to full gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day". There's no getting around their teachings.

2 Thess. 2 us referring to a Gathering unto Christ Jesus. PERIOD, that is it.

And Paul states that the gathering will not happen until the falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. This one verse disproves your entire belief system so you have to literally change the meaning of the Greek word for falling away/apostasy.

I showed you the verses that coincide with "falling away" which does indeed mean, forsaking the truth/departing/defection, etc

It has never meant departure from the earth. That doesn't even made sense.

We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Rev. 12:5 was Jesus taken up 2000 or so years ago as the disciples looked on. Its nit a Manchild, the proper translation is Male Child.

The Church age is shown in Rev. 2-3. Then John is told in 4:1, "I will show you things which must take place after these things." Everything shown John thereafter is End Times.
But of course, you will deny the testimony of this verse also.

 

[Fisherking]

If you feel comfortable not heeding the warnings given by both Christ and Paul on this very subject, that's fine.

That is THE RUB, I do not think you understand his words, so its not me not heeding, its you not understanding what Jesus is saying. Don't just assume you know everything, trust me you nor anyone else does, but only those who can hear, YOU ARE WRONG by the Holy Spirit ever gets to learn God's deep truths.

I've still seen nothing you've posted that would prove a pretrib rapture.

Everything in the bible points to a Pre Trib, Rapture. All the TIMELINES do not fit anything else. All of the parables Jesus gave us about the Marriage only fit a pre trib rapture. The 7 Feasts only fit a Pre Trib Rapture. Jesus fulfilled Passover, you kw that right? And the Unleavened Bread (he had no sin) and the First Fruits (he was the first-fruits of the grave). So, the only Feast all alone on the calendar was what? The Harvest or Feast of Weeks. Its not in the Spring nor Fall, but in the Summer. Jesus has fulfilled the three spring feasts. He is now fulfilling the Feast of weeks as our high priest in heaven, we are saving souls for the Master and the Father, as we speak, during the Church Age. What always ended the Harvest do you know? The Feast of Trumps in the Fall. So, who ends the Harvest? Jesus when he calls his Bride home, at the (GET THIS) Last Trump. WHAT? Yes, that is correct see Rev. 4:1 as John is rapture up he says Jesus sounded as a Trump, Paul was talking about the Last Trump which ends the Harvest (Church Age) Jews of his day understood what he was saying.

So, what does it mean when Jesus said no one can know the Day nor Hour? Only the Father? Well, its pointing unto how God APPOINTED all times, He alone knew when each moon would become a New Moon, its not like our calendar, where the 1st always comes at the same time, only the New Moon brought in the Feast. So, Israel sent up two men into the hills, once they saw the New Moon come in they sent back word and the Trumps started blowing, in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP, that officially ended the Harvest (THINK Church Age) and announced that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacles were nigh at hand. So, happens then? The 70th week. Who has to repent according to Dan. 9:24-27 before Jesus can return? Israel, that is who. And do we see this? Yes, in Zech. 13:8-9 just before the DOTL or God's Wrath falls in Zech. 14:1. Via Jesus atoning blood. (Jesus fulfills this also, just like Passover, Unleavened Bread, First-fruits, and the Feast of Trumps which ends the Church Age. This Israel ATONES. Now what happens? Jesus returns, kills the Beast, locks up Satan and dwell on earth, in Jerusalem for 1000 years. Well, what does Tabernacle mean? To DWELL with God. So, Jesus fulfills all 7 Feasts. These were practiced by Israel when they had no clue what they even meant. They were called Holy Convocations, which means Dress Rehearsals. So, its very important sister that we know how to dig out God's deeper truths. I am not chastising you fir not knowing, this has been my job forb 40 years, but we also have to learn to listen to those who are called, who do know, the holy spirit has reproven me MANY TIMES, on many things. I love it, this lets me know God lives men and is trying to reveal His truths unto me, so any time I am shown to be wrong, guess what, I learn a truth.

The holy spirit will always show is the truth, unless we say I KNOW THE TRUTH. In that case, you can never truthfully ask God to show you.

Both taught that his return/coming which is when our gathering back together happens will not take place until the tribulation of antichrist has taken place. The Thessalonians themselves were confused and Paul had to set them straight. We are told to watch and be watchmen so that day does not overtake one as a thief. Meaning Christians will be here and as Paul states they need to have to full gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day". There's no getting around their teachings.

You are just in error. They were confused, they were fearful they were in the DOTL and Paul tells them this is NOT POSSIBLE, because the Church DEPARTS before the Wrath of God comes. Revelations TIMELINES show we Marry Jesus in Heaven and return. Satan is very sneaky, he can appear as an angel of light.

And Paul states that the gathering will not happen until the falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. This one verse disproves your entire belief system so you have to literally change the meaning of the Greek word for falling away/apostasy.

Until THE DEPARTURE of the Church happens. Want to see an old post of mine? About 7 or 8 years ago I gathered a lot of information from Tommy Ice, Andy North amidst others and just put forth what they preach about, Tommy is from the Dallas Theological Seminary. He's a very good teacher to many.

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end now, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for at least 1100 some years.
-------------------------------------------
So, I am not just now understanding these things, when I hear a teacher/preacher making sense, I go with it if the spirit gives a nod. We have to allow the holy spirit to correct us.

It has never meant departure from the earth. That doesn't even made sense.

We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

What you did is bought into the KJV translation, over all other translation, then accepted it even though FAITH is not one time spoken about in the whole passage. Yet, since it backs up (you think) your POV, its all good. That is not how I come to conclusions sister. If it does nor fit I will not accept it.

 

[Fisherking]

The Church age is shown in Rev. 2-3. Then John is told in 4:1, "I will show you things which must take place after these things." Everything shown John thereafter is End Times.
But of course, you will deny the testimony of this verse also.

True, and that is what God and John is showing us in Rev. 12. In verses 1-5 we get THE PLAYERS, then in verses 6-17 we get the Prophecy. So, God shows us the Woman = Israel via Gen. 37:9, then the Dragon who is Satan, who tried to kill baby Jesus via Herod the Great. Then the Prophecy starts in vs. 6. It has zero to do with the Church being raptured at that point in time.

In Rev. 13 we also get told about Babylon, Persia and Greece via the Lion, Bear and Leopard. We then get told about Rome via the Mortal Wound, and the Anti-Christ heals the mortal wound (by conquering Israel).

In Rev. 17 we are shown the Harlot (all false religion of all time) who had the blood of the Saints (Jewish prophets and the Jews of old) AND the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus, showing she was on both sides of the cross. We are also told about Babylon the Great, and the Beast that WAS(Rome).........IS NOT.......YET IS.

But in each case the overall prophecy is about the End Times, we are just being given the players, the back stories, and clues to tell us who these players are, in these end time prophetic utterings.

So, when is Rev. 12's actual timeline via the actual Prophecy being told? Its about the last 1260 days of this Age, Satan's Rule on earth will end with him being locked in the bottomless pit. We are only given the players so people can understand what is going on.

 

[Dan2255]

We know from 1 Thess. that the rapture takes place almost simultaneously when Jesus raises His physically dead believers up out of their graves. All those who are in their graves are actually caught up first, then those who are still alive in their physical bodies at that time, and on that day get caught up right after them.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So we can clearly see that the rapture takes place on the day of the resurrection of all His saints who have died(as far as their physical existence is concerned) in Him.

So when did Jesus tell us several times that He is going to “raise the dead”?

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Wow, this must be too simple for a lot of people to understand?

You have read what Paul wrote concerning those in Christ. He never mentions the unrighteous in the verse. Because they are none. But now Christ speaks of the Harvest as being the end of this world just before the 1000 year reign where the wicked are gathered and put in the wine press of God and the righteous are gathered unto the Lord. We see two resurrection but yet there is a total of four resurrections they all being part of the first resurrection. Read revelation 20 and see the groups with Christ and then look again and see in revelation where their resurrection then you’ll understand.

 

[JulieB67]

About 7 or 8 years ago I gathered a lot of information from Tommy Ice, Andy North amidst others and just put forth what they preach about, Tommy is from the Dallas Theological Seminary. He's a very good teacher to many.

This tells me all I need to know.

You "want" to believe in a pretrib rapture so you will set out to find teachers that will help you with that.

I only want the truth no matter that that truth is. -and I only want that through scriptures. (certain tools of course when things get lost in translation)This doctrine is what got me into the Bible in the first place over 20 years ago. I was indoctrinated with that belief as are many. It's much easier to learn something for the most part than to "unlearn" something. But the truth was there to see and I have accepted the love of the truth. It's good to have teachers but they have to be backed up with scripture first and foremost. And once I read the bible in it's entirety for the first time 20 years ago, I saw that a pretrib rapture was not biblical. Far from it. If it was, I would certainly believe it, I used to believe it. But it's not there.

We will see in the end....