How Does One Put A Pre-Trib Rapture Before “The Last Day”?

[Fisherking]

You have read what Paul wrote concerning those in Christ. He never mentions the unrighteous in the verse. Because they are none. But now Christ speaks of the Harvest as being the end of this world just before the 1000 year reign where the wicked are gathered and put in the wine press of God and the righteous are gathered unto the Lord. We see two resurrection but yet there is a total of four resurrections they all being part of the first resurrection. Read revelation 20 and see the groups with Christ and then look again and see in revelation where their resurrection then you’ll understand.

They really just lack the fundamentals of great study. They do not understand the Three Harvest Festivals are used in Rev. 14 to tell us about the Harvests. In the parables of the Wheat & Tares, they should understand that the Wheat are Israel, and the Tares are the wicked, and indeed the grow together until the very end, but what they don't get is the Barley harvest comes first, barley does not have to be crushed in order to be sifted, but wheat does have to be crushed in order to be sifted. The Greeks had a machine called the "Tribulum" it crushed the wheat, that word tribulum is where we get our English word Tribulation from. So, Israel will go through the tribulation as a nation, because they do not repent until the 70th week. Meanwhile the Church are represented by the Barley, we do not need to go through tribulation in order to get sifted by God.

So, in Rev. 14 we see these three different entities, the 144,000 are the Wheat ?(Israel) they are Harvested by Jesus as he returns to set up the Kingdom Age. Then in verses 17-20 we see the Wicked Grapes or Tares being 1.) Placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath, or as the parable says, or 2.) Bundled (Killed and placed in a grave) to be Burned later (at the 2nd Resurrection 1000 years later). Then in vs. 14 we see the very first cinematic FLASHBACK in history, we see Jesus from upon a cloud Harvesting the Church (Barley).

There is only Two Resurrections because God is telling us about the Resurrection of the Righteous and the Resurrection of the Wicked. The Righteous are resurrected first, over a 7 year period they get hung up on 1 and 2 just like the 2nd Coming, they do not understand it simply means the 2nd Advent, not the 2nd Coming. Jesus has been on this earth many, many times. He was seen on earth in Dan. 12 as the Man in Linen. He was on the earth in Gen. 18 and 19 when he came down to talk to Abraham. He went to heaven and brought back the Holy Spirit in John 20.

 

[Fisherking]

This tells me all I need to know.

You "want" to believe in a pretrib rapture so you will set out to find teachers that will help you with that.

So, you do not know Tommy Ice (SMILE). I learn from men with the holy spirit. I know the difference between a correct teaching and an incorrect teaching. That is why I understand the Pre Trib Rapture, the holy spirit is my teacher, and the Pre Trib is 100 percent correct.

See what you do, you bring forth an accusational type jab, then ignore the facts I brought, because they prove the case I have been putting forth. By not trying to discount those facts you lost the debate.

We will see in the end....

By the way, there is no such thing as being indoctrinated into the truth. I have been doing this 40 years, the Pre Trib Rapture is the easy part of Eschatology, I handle the hard stuff like where the A.C. has to be born, what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 actually means, who the Scarlet Colored Beast is (Apollyon) etc. etc.

P.S. and of course you DODGED the Matt. 24:29-30 and Zech. 14:1-3 lesson because it proves you are in error on your thinking there.

 

[keras]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

 

[JulieB67]

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies.

Exactly. And when I said I accepted the love of the truth, I really mean that. Because when you seriously think about this doctrine, it's ridiculous. No one is just going to magically disappear in all walks of life, the entire world would be in complete chaos with planes dropping, car crashes, etc. Besides the fact- Christians have always faced tribulation and will continue to do so. Many confuse tribulation with God's wrath and it's not the same thing.
And people want the easy way out instead of putting that full gospel armour on to be able to stand.

 

[Fisherking]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.

The timelines do not fit anything but a pre tribulation rapture my friend.

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

Of course you are being disingenuous here. John 3:13 is telling us there is no old testament saints in heaven per se. But the "man" portion is Jesus referring to flesh, Jesus can ascend because he is without sin, but in the passage, Jesus is speaking unto Nicodemus about having to be born again, he says in verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which of born of the spirit is spirit. So, that verse is really saying only those born of the Spirit will be taken up to heaven, since Jesus had no sin he was auto qualified.

Then in 7:34 Jesus was speaking explicitly unto his Disciples, getting them ready to face life without him.

Then Rev. 2 is speaking to the Churches in general. Satan lives in heaven now, Jesus lives in heaven at the right side of the Father. Do they both now rule the nations? Do not Angels from heaven have power over the nations now? See how your point assumes we have to be o earth to have power? The boat has a hole, you need a bigger boat.

You see how every scripture you tried to bend it a little to match up to your preconceived notions?

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

You, I, and anyone else out of 8 billion earthlings can read the bible 100 times over, it is not going to change one iota sir. God's word is fast and true. Basically what you just said was anyone who agree with me is in the truth camp. THEY..........THEY..........THEY do this or that. I have been called by God since 1983 my friend, I understand the bible perfectly, if you chose to see something another way, more power to you, but in the end, you will see, there is a pre tribulation rapture of the church. You guys use verses out of context, just like you did above, just like Matt. 24:29-30. The immediately after is referring to the sun and moon going dark. Your fav. verse thus has you in error because of how you perceived it wrongly.

And you are also in error when you say THEY SAY the Jewish people must face tribulation, that is just factually not what we say at all. We see both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus will be taken to heaven to marry the Lamb just before the 70th week. Thus anyone left on earth has to repent or else face eternal damnation. The Jews who repent (1/3 repent) will be protected by God because how else can Jesus have a Kingdom Age kingdom for 1000 years set up in Jerusalem as God promised unto Abraham? The Gentiles had there chance and 5 of the 10 virgin brides missed the wedding call. Thus all Gentiles who come to Christ during the 70th week will be in a bad place, God's Wrath will kill many, just like bad weather now kills Christians and non Christians, at least 1/3 of this world will burn up. Million/Billion will die, but they can be in Christ, just not protected, unless the get over to the Petra area. Just remember, when we lead other people down false roads my friend, it can damage them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

That is about the Bride of Jesus, if you studied the Jewish Wedding traditions as have you could see it.

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

You do no any scripture you post applies to you if you are in error right? Pot calling the kettle black as the old saying goes. Everyone is deceived by you right? Most of the time, to be honest, when I see someone so far off on things I just do not bother to even try to engage. But I think Julie needs to be shown why these things are not as people are saying. She is probably not entrenched, so I give it the old college try.

We will be gone very soon anyway. Then you will not be able to deny that we are not on earth. as the 70th week plays out. You will have to grin and bear it brother. What a pity, your error will see you in heaven during the 70th week. We will not have the RUB IT IN YOUR FACE spirit once we get to heaven, so you will get a pass on all this error, but alas, in the end, we all end up in the same place for eternity. So, cheers.

 

[keras]

You see how every scripture you tried to bend it a little to match up to your preconceived notions?

What I do see, is how the 'rapture to heaven' believers bend, twist and misapply scriptures to suit their false belief.
Because you simply have no definitive proof of anyone going to live in heaven, at any time. It will only be after the Millennium, that God will come to dwell with mankind. Rev 21:1-7

We will be gone very soon anyway.

We will be tested very soon. 1 Peter 5:12.
People fooled by false teachings, won't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

 

[AYM]

The Biblical, historical, archaeological, heraldic and linguistic record proves you wrong. Your belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong; only a Christian remnant of the House of Judah will survive to go into the Millennium.

It is God’s plan that the House of Judah, that is: the Jewish people, remain as an identifiable people group to fulfil the tasks assigned to them. In these present days, one task has been to replant and rebuild the Land.

But the 10 Northern tribes, that is, the House of Israel, have been lost to history.
Deuteronomy 32:26 says - I will cause the memory of them to cease among men.

However, the Bible does give us some clues as to who and where they might be today.

1. Who has received the blessings promised?
2. Where will they eventually come from to return to the Land?

THE BLESSINGS -
To Abraham: Father of many nations, exceedingly fruitful,
To Isaac: numberless descendants, Land given to them.

• To Jacob: The richness of the earth. Peoples will serve you. Curses on those who curse you, blessing on those who bless you.
• To the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel): See in Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33:1-29

1 Chronicles 5:1-2; states that the Birthright Blessing is given to Joseph.

In Genesis 48 Jacob blesses Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Both were to become great nations.

Deuteronomy 33:17 The 10,000s of Ephraim and the 1000s of Manasseh will push against the nations, even to the ends of the earth.

Only the British Commonwealth and the United States of America fulfil these prophecies. The other 8 tribes seem to be identifiable with the European Union nations.
Ref: The Tribes, Yair Davidy.

RETURN AND REJOINING IN THE LAND
There are over forty prophecies telling us of the House of Israel’s return to the Promised Land in the last days, so where they will migrate from gives the clues as to where they are now.

Jeremiah 31:8-10 See, I bring them from a Northern land ... gathered from the far ends of the earth.....a vast company...I am a Father to Israel and Ephraim is My eldest son.

Isaiah 49:12 They are coming, some from far away, some from the North and West and others from the land of Sinim. (Sinim - Hebrew: Southern land, Latin: Australi)

Hosea 11: They will follow the Lord and when He roars His sons will speed out of the West.

So, the main location of the lost ten tribes is in the Northwest and from there, spread around the world.

I'm coming in late, but with the idea of the lost 10 tribes, can you explain the below?

Luke 2:36

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity.

 

[keras]

I'm coming in late, but with the idea of the lost 10 tribes, can you explain the below?

Luke 2:36

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity.

Sure: Many people from the ten Northern tribes did join with Judah after they split. They became Jews, as many still do today, they simply accept and practise Judaism.
That the ten Northern tribes did go into exile in Assyria and subsequently migrated around the world, is in the historical record. Proved by how they received the blessings Prophesied by Jacob and Moses.
Who exactly they are and where, is Gods secret, Amos 9:9, but we can know that the majority became Christians , as Jesus' mission was successful.