~That which is perfect~

[child of Jesus]

You apparently don't know the history of Pentecostalism if you think Kenneth Copeland is a pioneer...methinks his daddy was still in diapers around that time...

hi Drewster!
i do know the history of Pentecostalism.
i noted the two on the vids as pioneers of the Televangelist ilk.
that's why they're popular: lots of folks, you may agree, believe everything they see on TV.

i'll post shortly my research on the history of Pentecostalism. hopefully you can see if i'm in error.

it goes a little further back than Copeland's daddy in diapers...

just because Charismatic denominations have mushroomed in membership doesn't in and of itself legitimize it, would you agree? does size matter, Drew?

could you comment on Copeland and Browne? are they legit?

~ child

 

[Frogster]

I'm saying that if i said i possessed the gift of tongues or healing or whatever, then that is not God moving freely as He wills in us...It is more like us summoning him which is tantamount to i'll say this quietly cuz some of my best friends are charismatics, sorcery.

Sorcers can be fun friends.
They add pizazz...

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

lol! he was not pushing them AWAY from the gifts, he said seek the gifts! Dude! And stop prooftexting already...

Pauls basic message (talking to a bunch of people who were fanatical about 'spiritual gifts'..and using them unbiblically) Remember he's trying not to offend anyone too much:

"hey dudes...uhm...spiritual gifts, yeah! theyre great arn't they. Ya you should look for them and all that but ...listen.....I'd rather that you TEACH people the Gospel....and speak simply to one another...and really concentrate on LOVE, FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY. Ok fellas? We're grown ups now"

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

this is not about apostles! Show me how! It says..BODY>>

So the apostles wern't part of the Body of Christ?

They will be most dissapointed.

 

[simonthezealot]

Pauls basic message (talking to a bunch of people who were fanatical about 'spiritual gifts'..and using them unbiblically) Remember he's trying not to offend anyone too much:

"hey dudes...uhm...spiritual gifts, yeah! theyre great arn't they. Ya you should look for them and all that but ...listen.....I'd rather that you TEACH people the Gospel....and speak simply to one another...and really concentrate on LOVE, FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY. Ok fellas? We're grown ups now"

Yes preaching and teaching are a far more effective means to communicate worship and evangelise, was his point i'd say.

 

[child of Jesus]

I don't know about the banhammer...but, I have to wonder what nonbelievers think when they read a thread like this where Christian brethren are at each other's throats...it's no wonder so many are turned off by the idea of church.

hi drew
mainstream believers like me who simply BELIEVE what God has said, repent of our sins and look to the Blessed hope are more often ridiculed and our salvation called into question because we don't "speak in tongues" etc.

that makes me wonder what unbelievers would think.

the activity such as the "Toronto Blessing", "Pensecola", etc also makes me worry about what unbelievers think of Christianity. many from voodoo cultures, or with occult backgrounds have testified they see exactly what they came from.

i guess there is testimony from all sides.

~ aside from all that....

Drew, having read passages such as the following, do you not think it's fair and reasonable for us to test all things?

2 Timothy 4:3 (NIV)
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Jeremiah 23:26
How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?


2 Peter 1:19 (NLT) - [Peter speaking about Jesus Christ....notice he speaks of the prophets of OLD...of what they said and wrote (past tense)...always about Jesus.]

Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place--until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts.


1 Timothy 4:1-2 (NIV)
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.


~ i'm not using these passages in direct relation to our discussion, but rather to remind you that we are commanded to be very careful.

just those few examples causes me to really use caution, and to test the spirits, and not trust any men.

~ child.

 

[child of Jesus]

We've had trolls on there before, masquerading as Christians to do nothing but badmouth us. The activity is very similar to that.

well, that's not the case with me, Arby. just so you can put that to rest.

i'm not a troll, and i am indeed a Christian.

i just think the Charismatic Movement is questionable.
and we are permitted by Scripture to test all things, so i do, and make no apologies for it.

if you are comfortable in your position, no need to get defensive.

i'm nothing more than a sinner saved by Grace, through Faith in the Finished Work of Jesus The Christ.

i walk by faith, not by sight.

~ child

 

[child of Jesus]

a wee bit of trolling.. It's common....

but your comment causes me to wonder if there was a time ever where
anyone was stoned (or hung etc) for operating in the gifts of the Spirit.
Because if you don't understand it (as we've seen demonstrated today)
I can see where someone may misunderstand it to be blasphemous.
kwim?

hi sunlover:
since when is testing all things trolling?

your post suggests my God-given right to test all things is akin to stoning or Inquisition. hardly fair, is it?

Hebrews 5
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

regarding the Copeland-Browne video: would you say those two are legitimately "operating in the gifts of the spirit"?

~ regards!
child

 

[child of Jesus]

I think people are being thin skinned here...


Nonetheless, I'm a cessationist, yet i've experienced like yarddog a manifestation of the spirit in a manner of language...Once!
It was for his purpose and for His glory. It's not a gift that i posses it was an action of the HS. happened once, end of story.

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heya simon!
Amen! good post!

i've experienced miraculous things also....amazing!
but as you suggested, never anything i can "summon".
it makes me wonder how it happens in certain denominational churches every single Sunday...

(i'm a cessationist as well, regarding the Apostolic gifts)


~ child

 

[child of Jesus]

I don't get this approach, if we are well studied and see errors in theology are we not called to address directly what is seen as false teaching?

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


stay true simon.


~ child

 

[child of Jesus]

Phil is solid to the core.

hi simon!
yes, he is....

if you haven't already listened, you will enjoy this series : A SURVEY OF HERESIES

A Survey of Heresies by Phil Johnson

the judaizers were the first to manifest in the early Church and Phil does an AMAZING run through Galatians.

love in Jesus,
~ child

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal. EVERY MAN. Although I haven't finished reading this thread yet, I have noticed some references back to what transpired back on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2. What I haven't seen yet (it might be there...like I said, I haven't read the entire thread yet) is the following:

Yes the Holy Spirit manifests itself in every regenerate man. So what does any of this have to do with running around like a loon in church or talking gobbledegook or falling over when a pastor waves his hand? Or claiming that you have magical healing powers?

Are the 'gifts' that are mentioned in scripture the same things that Pentes and Charismatics are doing in their churches? AND the Corinthians for that matter.

Peter, who was full of the Holy Ghost himself, looked back to a prophecy of Joel to justify what was transpiring on the day of Pentecost. This justification included God's promise to "pour out my Spirit UPON ALL FLESH" and it also included God's promise that His servants and handmaidens "SHALL PROPHESY". Something for the individual (I think that it was Dr.Strangelove, but I could be wrong...I've only skimmed parts of this thread) who sought to assert that "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:2) means that prophesy is no longer for today to hopefully ponder. Prophesying, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, is very much still applicable for "the last days". Back to I Corinthians:

Ok so what do you say that 'prophecy' is? Is it foretelling of future events and applies to modern people or is it simply carrying out the office of a prophet or teacher? If you say its foretelling the future then pray tell SHARE with the Christians here what the latest news is in your church? What are your guys prophecying thats important to the Body. WHAT DO WE NEED TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE??!

Dividing TO EVERY MAN as he will. The Holy Spirit wills to give EVERY MAN (or woman) at least one of the spiritual gifts or "charismas" that are outlined here. That some on this thread think that their refusal of such Biblical truths is somehow going to stop the very Spirit of God from accomplishing that which He desires is almost comical. Actually, it's quite frightening and probably borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

Someone is definately blaspheming. We'll have to wait till judgement to find out who. The question remains 1) We don't need supernatural gifts anymore, millions of non-Charismatic Christians are fully convinced in Christ so why do you say we need them? and 2) Even if the Apostles say in scripture that gifts have been given to believers by the Holy Spirit, how do you know that they are talking about SUPERNATURAL gifts for ALL believers. Some got miracles for sure. That was the Apostles as it is recorded in scripture that they performed miracles. To think that you have supernatural abilities but you cant actually prove it is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I'm trying to keep myself out of this, but I can't help to recall, TO THE GLORY OF GOD, just what an *AHEM* "proud charismatic" I must be in the blinded eyes of some due to my own past. Not only have I not required ANY medical help for the last 22+ years because I've continually been a recipient of God's "gifts of healings",

Are you talking about serious medical care? Coz I havn't needed anything in all my 35 years too. So I've been a recipient of Gods healing as well. Except I give all Glory to God whereas you try and snatch a load for yerself.

Can you heal other people too or only yourself?

but I've also, BY THE GRACE OR GIFTING OF GOD, cast out demons in Jesus Christ's name a multitude of times (which required "the discerning of spirits")

Ya, its easy to go to church and stand in front of someone and put on a show and call it 'casting out demons'.

I notice this time your not even sure if it's by the Grace of God or by a gifting?? Heh?

and even had at least one experience with "a word of knowledge". I'll quickly relate that experience and you'll hopefully understand why this issue literally "strikes home" with me. About 11 years ago or so, I was teaching a Bible study in Pennsylvania and was introduced to a young woman for the first time who attended the study. She had some problems. In fact, she was tormented. Although I discerned her torment to be demonic in nature, when I prayed for her to be delivered (commanded the spirit to come out of her in Jesus' name), the spirit manifested, but would not come out. At this time, the Holy Ghost kept saying (almost shouting) to me, "Abortion...abortion...abortion..." Since I was meeting this young woman for the first time and had absolutely no clue as to her past, I felt a little awkward (to say the least) in asking her if she had had an abortion. Well, lo and behold, she had. As soon as she confessed it as a sin and asked God for forgiveness, she was gloriously delivered from the spirit that had been tormenting her. Why does this experience "strike home" with me? Well, this same young woman and I will be celebrating our 10 year wedding anniversary next February. On top of this, my wife had also been diagnosed with cancer. One day, a friend of ours and I prayed for my wife IN JESUS CHRIST'S NAME and a tumor came out of her, how shall we say, "lower regions". She no longer has cancer. Don't tell me that the gifts aren't for today. My wife (and a whole bunch of other people who I personally know, including myself) are LIVING PROOF of it. Back to I Corinthians:

I'm not gonna comment on this. I'll just get myself in trouble.

Paul likens Christians to the members of a body. As each member of a body has its proper function, so too ought EVERY CHRISTIAN have its proper function in the body of Christ. GOD is the One Who "sets the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him", but WE are the ones who ought to be "coveting earnestly the best gifts" so that we can fully carry out our callings or fully function in the body in the way that God has intended us to function. WHO set "miracles", "the gifts of healings", "diversities of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" IN THE CHURCH? GOD DID. Those who oppose such things are in DIRECT OPPOSITION TO GOD.

Oops, you didn't mention the gifts Paul rated as the highest of any. LOVE, HOPE, FAITH AND CHARITY. Non-supernatural you'll notice.

I wouldn't want to be in any of your shoes, come Judgment Day. Furthermore, rather than "boast" of how you have no "GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT", you ought to be hanging your heads in shame and questioning as to whether or not you're really even part of the body of Christ. Sound too extreme of a suggestion?

Oh likewise my friend, likewise. I definately wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you have to explain to God how you spent your life fulfilling your fleshy, erotic desires in the form of kundalini arts rather than heeding scriptures advice and sticking to solid Christian doctrine.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522943-2/#post56425760I will also mention that, in I Corinthians chapter 13, Paul mentions speaking "with the tongues of angels" alongside "the tongues of men". Just more evidence for the scoffers on this thread to willfully overlook or ignore.

My wife has the voice of an angel too. She does a fine Alanis Morissette in the shower.

Anyone for an orthodox explanation of the verse? Just if you wanna keep yer feet on the ground?

Barnes Exposition:

"And of angels - The language of angels; such as they speak. Were I endowed with the faculty of eloquence and persuasion which we attribute to them; and the power of speaking to any of the human family with the power which they have. The language of angels here seems to be used to denote the highest power of using language, or of the most elevated faculty of eloquence and speech."

Course if it suits your unbiblical behaviour you can say Paul means talking gibberish.

 

[simonthezealot]

Tough ground to till around here for any fundies...Let me tell you.

 

[child of Jesus]

no, showing idiots, does not mean that it is not for today. We all know there are abusers and fakes.

perhaps I missed it, but did u reply to the fact that tongues in the greek, is the same at pent, and those whom Paul met on the road, who prayed in the same tongues?

languages: previously UNLEARNED.

a MIRACLE.

 

[child of Jesus]

i hear ya, he either cessations, or he doesn't.

He is a good bro though..but he proved our point.

hi froggy:
nobody has EVER said God doesn't perform miracles today!

some of us question the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

and some of us believe the specific Apostolic era miracles (i.e. raising from the dead, healing in one's shadow are ended).

but i've NEVER said God doesn't perform miracles today: He raised this dead sinner from the spiritual grave and granted sight to this blind beggar.

~ child

 

[child of Jesus]

same mo.. you're just proving what most know, there are fakes, and false apostles..WE KNOW THAT..

Paul dealt with false apostles in Corinth, who did miracles..

But how does that mean that the manifestations are over now?

Stop pointing out the extreme looney people, to try to prove a doctrine, that does not exist in scripture. There are bad drivers, but the rest still have a liscense!

Again..sorry to repeat, but lets see the verses to show the manifestations are over, not just verses about fakes! Really, God bless, but you and strangelove need a new mo already..paaaaleeease!

Thanks. Said with all due respect.

hi froggy....

could you please give me a few names of folks who operate in the giftings that i can find online to research? you don't object to testing all things, that's clear from your post.

one can hardly be blamed for skepticism when we see so many charlatans, right?

as for the Apostolic powers ceasing, could you show me a single person raised from the dead please? any name...anyone....

how about a few known examples by name please?

love in Christ,
~ child.

 

[child of Jesus]

Child of Jesus, is teaching over? Is serving over? Seems like you press the gifts word too much, Paul uses it generally, unless you think serving is over. Note the prophecy word right in there.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;

hi frog....
nope.
prophecy is TEACHING.
not "thus saith The Lord": canon is closed, son.
the only reason i use the word gifts is because that's what the Pentes and Charis use.

and often we who simply walk by faith are questioned if we don't speak "in tongues"....agree?

~ child

 

[sunlover1]

We've put away the 'childish' things because that which is perfect has come.

Obviosly.

LOLZ! I've just noticed one member say that Jesus operated in the giftings??!

ROFL.

Jesus? He's God.

If you wanna walk "just" how God walked then lets see some healing of the blind. Some resurrection of the dead.

What "greater works than these" do "you" do?

Do you guys want to be Gods? Is that what this is all about?

AS Christ is in this world.
I want to be AS Christ is
... in this world.

 

[child of Jesus]

I've been studying to be a minister through my denomination...there's a book I had to read called 2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity...there are folks mentioned in the book that the early church declared to be heretics...Montanists, for one...I don't know that they were ever stoned or anything like that though...

Then with the Pentecostal Movement in the early 1900s...it was never the intent of any of the "Pentecostal Pioneers" to start their own denominations...but the established churches that these folks were part of would not accept this new movement of the Spirit...yet sixty years later the mainstream denominations would accept it...with the birth of the Charismatic Movement in an Episcopal Church...although it wasn't a warm reception at the beginning...

Cessationists used to be the majority...but there are now somewhere in the neighborhood of 750 million Christians that consider themselves to be either Pentecostal or Charismatic...with the majority of these folks in mainstream Protestant churches and the RCC...others wouldn't classify themselves as Cessationist, as they're open to the Spiritual Gifts, but have never experienced them...so I think it's safe to say that cessationism is a minority view within Christianity now.

Hmmm...

Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

EXCELLENT BIG DREW!
but just because this Thiurd wave has overtaken the mainstream doesn't mean it is legitimate.
i have more information on the origins i'll post later....rather shocking.

re: your Acts passage? dispensationalist are ye?

that was fulfilled at Pentecost Big Drew.

 

[child of Jesus]

I know that, it says tongues plural..languages..

Do you agree with paul that we are in Abraham?

They had the Spirit, with miracles..

Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

It happened because of the promise of the Spirit.

14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.


Ok, so how do you seperate the manifestations of the Spirit, from the children of Abe, as per the Galatians?

It says in 3:29, we are his offspring. That is still true today. Yes?

frog:
you can't change my mind by quoting miraculous gifts granted the New Church...i believe they DID have them....

see?

you say potatoe, i say potato.