~That which is perfect~

[sunlover1]

Is not referring to the Bible.

 

[Rick Otto]

A thread about lil' ol' me?

 

[Big Drew]

Is not referring to the Bible.

Amen!

 

[ARBITER01]

Is not referring to the Bible.

That's exactly true. There is nothing in scripture relating scripture as the coming perfection, but there is scripture specifically describing what that perfection will be,..

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;

That word "perfecting" is active. That is the spotless bride to be. Once this perfection is reached, the church and it's giftings shall pass away.

 

[Rick Otto]

like a relationship that has matured into a greater one?

 

[ARBITER01]

like a relationship that has matured into a greater one?

Exactly.

A lot of folks attempt to draw a false perfection from scripture by this verse,..

Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

Sheet or scroll to be more accurate, but John only announced this on what was just written through him, he couldn't contradict himself,..

1Jn 2:5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby know we that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

It would be ridiculous to suggest that the ending of revelation declared church perfection and removed the church giftings when we have John stating that we must do those things that Jesus did, and that included doing prophecy, healings, ect.

John did not contradict himself, as he is repeating what Jesus already said,..

Joh 14:12 Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

[sunlover1]

A thread about lil' ol' me?

EVERYthing is about you Rick, didn't you know?

Amen!

Let's see what happens!

 

[Faith.Man]

Is not referring to the Bible.

If you are implying that the Body of Christ is what is referred to, I would say that we have regressed since NT Biblical times, not become perfect. I don't see perfection on the horizon, do you? One read through of this forum should be enough to prove my point.

 

[sunlover1]

If you are implying that the Body of Christ is what is referred to, I would say that we have regressed since NT Biblical times, not become perfect. I don't see perfection on the horizon, do you? One read through of this forum should be enough to prove my point.

Nooooo! Heavens no lol.
We are not that which is perfect are we?
(Wow, thanks for clearing that up Faithman)

A commonly held belief is that "that which is perfect" is referring to
Scripture being "finished" ... perfect if you will.

Closer examination reveals that this is an erroneous assumption,
hastily arrived at out of a desperate need to undermine the idea
of Holy Spirit manifestation in the body of Christ by those who
misunderstand the message of Paul relating same.

 

[Faith.Man]

Nooooo! Heavens no lol.
We are not that which is perfect are we?
(Wow, thanks for clearing that up Faithman)

A commonly held belief is that "that which is perfect" is referring to
Scripture being "finished" ... perfect if you will.

Closer examination reveals that this is an erroneous assumption,
hastily arrived at out of a desperate need to undermine the idea
of Holy Spirit manifestation in the body of Christ by those who
misunderstand the message of Paul relating same.

I agree with you that it's not Scripture. I believe John MacArthur is of this opinion -- one of a few things we disagree on.

So if we agree it's not Holy Scripture and it's not the Body of Christ, it must mean the second coming of Jesus Christ or possibly the millennial kingdom where Jesus reigns. This is not a subject I've spent any time on, so nobody should accept what I've written without their own, in-depth study.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Gasp, what do you mean, KJV fell from heaven!

 

[Standing Up]

Is not referring to the Bible.

Some use that verse to support their notion that the gifts have ceased. Once the canon is closed, apostles are no longer necessary. (New) prophecy ended. Evangelism, teaching, preaching is what's left.

 

[Standing Up]

Gasp, what do you mean, KJV fell from heaven!

It was good enough for Paul

 

[Big Drew]

I agree with you that it's not Scripture. I believe John MacArthur is of this opinion -- one of a few things we disagree on.

So if we agree it's not Holy Scripture and it's not the Body of Christ, it must mean the second coming of Jesus Christ or possibly the millennial kingdom where Jesus reigns. This is not a subject I've spent any time on, so nobody should accept what I've written without their own, in-depth study.

:ding ding ding:

We have a winnah! Give the man a cigar!

 

[Faith.Man]

:ding ding ding:

We have a winnah! Give the man a cigar!

Thank you.

 

[Rick Otto]

If you are implying that the Body of Christ is what is referred to, I would say that we have regressed since NT Biblical times, not become perfect. I don't see perfection on the horizon, do you? One read through of this forum should be enough to prove my point.

ouldn't He perfect us at the Last Trumpet in the 'twinkling of an eye'?

...Or has somebody thrown pixie dust in mine?

 

[sunlover1]

I agree with you that it's not Scripture. I believe John MacArthur is of this opinion -- one of a few things we disagree on..

Yeah, very common belief.
I used to love to listen to Mac but when I heard him teaching this stuff
I of necessity lost some trust in his teachings and so abandoned listening
to him at all.
Nowadays I will listen to any teaching and am more able to eat the meat and
spit out the bone but at that time I was a pretty new Christian.
Sometimes we outgrow our teachers anyhow.

Gasp, what do you mean, KJV fell from heaven!

Truly, the only folks I hear that from are those who try to
control who can read and understand Scripture.
Just saying for future reference.
Let me know if you find any protestants claiming that though.

Some use that verse to support their notion that the gifts have ceased. Once the canon is closed, apostles are no longer necessary. (New) prophecy ended. Evangelism, teaching, preaching is what's left.

We'd love to hear more of your thoughts on it
if and when you have time and inclination.

ouldn't He perfect us at the Last Trumpet in the 'twinkling of an eye'?

...Or has somebody thrown pixie dust in mine?

Note to self, "they call mud "pixie dust" in the south".

 

[Faith.Man]

ouldn't He perfect us at the Last Trumpet in the 'twinkling of an eye'?

...Or has somebody thrown pixie dust in mine?

But the Perfect, Jesus, would have already returned by then, right? Do you think a perfect you is equal to a Perfect Jesus? I don't think so, myself.

 

[Ih8s8n]

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; BUT THEN FACE TO FACE: now I know in part; BUT THEN SHALL I KNOW EVEN AS ALSO I AM KNOWN. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (I Corinthians 12:31-13:13)

In the midst of a discourse on spiritual gifts, a discourse in which the Apostle Paul tells his readers that it is okay to "covet earnestly the best gifts", the Apostle Paul also informs his readers of "a more excellent way". This "more excellent way" is the way of charity or love. Why is love "more excellent" than gifts that could actually aid us in our endeavors to love? There's really only one specific reason given:

Charity/love never fails or never ceases. It is the very royal law of God and it will continue on throughout eternity. In contrast, spiritual gifts are temporary. They will cease to be needed at a specific time in history.

When exactly is this specific time? Personally, I don't think that the reader is left to guess as it is pretty explicity stated in the portion of scripture that we just read:

"...but THEN face to face..."

"...but THEN shall I know even as I am known..."

This will not be fulfilled until the time comes that we see Jesus Christ face to face and know Him as fully as He knows us. This time is yet FUTURE and speaks of the kingdom that is yet to come. Charity/love is greater than both faith and hope because the time will come when neither faith nor hope are needed because that which we have had faith in will be a reality as will that which we have hoped for. Once again, charity/love will never fail or cease. It is the royal law of God that will last throughout eternity. For now, the gifts are certainly still needed and available. Covet them earnestly for all the right reasons.

Take care.

 

[sunlover1]

Charity/love never fails or never ceases. It is the very royal law of God and it will continue on throughout eternity. In contrast, spiritual gifts are temporary. They will cease to be needed at a specific time in history.

When exactly is this specific time? Personally, I don't think that the reader is left to guess as it is pretty explicity stated in the portion of scripture that we just read:

"...but THEN face to face..."

"...but THEN shall I know even as I am known..."

Awesome

For now, the gifts are certainly still needed and available. Covet them earnestly for all the right reasons.

I think they're still needed as well because we need revelation and that's what
most of the gifts of the Spirit bring.

Be blessed.