~That which is perfect~

[Ih8s8n]

I'm still catching up on everything that's been posted on this thread, but I'll comment briefly on this post before reading on...

Oh really>?

I missed out that post coz you ALREADY ADMITTED that we are perfected in Christ so whats the point in continuing when you already say that which is perfect has come?

Do you want me to address that post (#31) and completely crush it? You wanna have a drawn out battle with me? I'm a veteran at postal surgery. I'll go at it sentence by sentence if you want. Just say the word and I will with EASE.

Dr.Strangelove: Actually, I only agreed that we are called to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. Anyhow, I'm "saying the word". "Completely crush" my referenced post. I'll be waiting...

 

[Ih8s8n]

Originally Posted by Ih8s8n

sunlover1: I do need to head out of state for several hours shortly, but I just wanted to note that I'm not the least bit "offended". Christians ought to be dead to themselves and alive for Christ. With such being the case, any "offense" on my part would only be self-centered. Anyhow, I'll dive back into this thread later this afternoon.

Take care.

P.S. I trust that you and others will note how Dr.Strangelove conveniently avoided all that I posted in my last response to him. His silence (read avoidance of uncomfortable truths) certainly is deafening.
​

I often wonder about those people that have been taught one is not responsible for his or her sins. Some go so far in order to feel righteous that they separate their spirit from their bodies.

Do such people believe one’s body will go to Hell for sinning and their spirit’s go to Heaven?

Calvin sure messed up Christian theology, but it would seem to me that man has become more educated so as not to accept his teachings any more.

(Matthew 5:27-30) “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Now for some people I guess they except that the body will be in Hell, and their spirits will be in Heaven. Do you think their spirits will hurt along with their bodies?

Giver: I'm just catching up on this thread and I haven't read it in its entirety yet, so hopefully this question is still relevant. In either case, I'm not sure why you asked this of me or attached my quote to it. Unless I'm reading you wrong (which is certainly a possibility), then it seems as if your question really pertains to others (like Dr.Strangelove) who have made a distinction between the flesh and the spirit. Anyhow, I do not believe that one's spirit will be in Heaven while their body is in Hell. I hope that answers your question...even though I'm not sure why you asked it of me (an assumption based upon the fact that you quoted me).

Take care.

 

[Ih8s8n]

so maybe Doc is wrong on that particular thing. big deal.

Child of Jesus: Did you even read my post to Dr.Strangelove? If so, then there's definitely more than "one thing" that he's wrong about and they are all BIG deals.

his point is that IN CHRIST we are perfect in God's eyes.

we have been perfected BECAUSE we are robed in CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS...not our own: which many proud charismatics don't get.

"Proud charismatics"? I'll let that go for now and address it at a later time when I address this whole issue from a strictly scriptural standpoint. In other words, whereas you've pulled "the old switcheroo" by setting up the strawman of the likes of Copeland and Browne, I'll stick with what the scriptures actually teach on the topic and not lean upon false teachers to denounce true teachings from scripture. Anyhow, since you refer to yourself as a "Child of Jesus", what do you do with verses such as these in relation to our "righteousness"?

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (I John 2:29)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoso ever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (I John 3:7-10)

Are you "doing righteousness"? If not, then you'd better either start "PERFECTING HOLINESS in the fear of God" (II Corinthians 7:1) or change your username.

i ask you: what denomination are you?

Whether you're aware of it or not, you're basically asking me by what name am I called. I am called by the name of Jesus Christ, as His is the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) That's always been my genuine position and it will never change. At the same time, since I understand what you're after, I have seen many things that have taken place within professing Christendom over the last 22+ years (since I've become a Christian) and especially some of the abominations that have been falsely attributed to "the gifts of the Spirit". And? Do such conterfeit movements cancel out that which is true? Of course, they do not. Anyhow, in regards to what is true, I'll address that in a future post where I'll primarily look at "What saith the Lord"...as opposed to "What saith Copeland, Browne...or even you".

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Dr.Strangelove: Yet, there is plenty that we can do to decrease it.

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy, for I am holy." (I Peter 1:13-16)

Nope. Sorry, nothing in there about any 'levels' of Holiness whether it be increasing or decreasing. We are given our sanctification COMPLETE, it is imputed to us as justification through faith. END OF STORY. If you think that your works can increase or decrease the sanctification that GOD had given to us FREE OF CHARGE through Faith in His Son then you are sorely sorely mistaken.

Christians need to guard themselves against "fashioning themselves to the former lusts". Such "fashioning" definitely decreases ones "holiness" in God's sight. If not, then why such admonitions/exhortations as this in scripture:

If anyone is 'fasioning' themselves after their lusts then they are SIMPLY not TRULY SAVED! Thats the message of scripture quite clearly.

God chastens us "that we might be partakers of His holiness". We basically have two options when such chastening comes upon us:

1. "Let it be healed". In other words, we need to repent of whatever it is that God is showing us to be wrong. This "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby".

This happens as a natural fruit of our faith in Jesus Christ. Whats next?

2. "Be turned out of the way". Do I need to tell you what that means? Christians are instructed to "follow...holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord". Christians are also exhorted to "Look diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God". What do you suppose that means? It means just what it says. Esau sold his birthright "for one morsel of meat". We can do the same.

Sorry but no. His SHEEP are PREDESTINED to sanctification and Salvation. If you think someone has lost their Holiness then they were never saved in the first place. Scripture is clear on this matter.

"The INITIAL growing up to perfect holiness by faith"? You've got to be kidding. IN CONTEXT, Paul was clearly rebuking the Corinthians for a whole host of things that they might repent.

Thats right. He was speaking to Corinthians who were dabbling in all kinds of occultic and pagan practices whilst thinking they were 'operating in the gifts'. So they were falling away into apostacy. He was talking to some LOST christians. They never HAD Holiness. He's rebuking them as an example for us NOT to follow. the ones who repented recieved FULL sanctification and Paul praises them to continue to walk in it as an example for us.

That was JESUS speaking. He found people IN THE CHURCH whose "works were not perfect before God". What did He tell them? What YOU suggested the other day?

And those whose works arn't Holy and perfect before God are the Lost Sheep who can still repent. Thats why He tells them REPENT!

"Perfect in the sight of the Lord"? "Perfect in the sight of the Lord"? He just threatened those IN THE CHURCH, those who had "defiled their garments", with having their names blotted out of the book of life. He also threatened to come upon them as a thief in the night if they didn't REPENT. As far as the importance of works is concerned, did you ever notice what the first thing is that Jesus said to ALL of the seven CHURCHES in Revelation? I did.

"And unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candlesticks; I KNOW THY WORKS..." (Revelation 2:1-2)

Got it? Good.

SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT??? The ones who defile themselves are not sanctified and are not saved. They were never destined to be. Unless they repent their names will remain BLOTTED OUT.

OUR WORKS DO NOTHING FOR US. How many times do you need to read that in the NT? But you still think they mean something? Jesus knows our works? SURE HE DOES. So??? Does that mean we need to conciously do certain things in this life to please Him? NO! We should be doing them naturally THROUGH FAITH. If we are, or if we dont...Jesus will see it 4sure.

Got it? GOOD!

No, I don't think that Jesus is "THAT which is perfect". "THAT" is referring to the coming kingdom of God of which Christ will ultimately be King. This "that" hasn't come yet, according to Paul. With such being the case, and it is the case whether you like it or not, why then do you say such things as the following:

NEWSFLASH buddy. Jesus Christ is KING RIGHT NOW, and has been since His ressurrection. He's my King anyhoot. Is He yours? He's not coming back to be King. and the Earthly 'millenial reign' is a Jewish FABLE...just like the pre-trib rapture.

If "the righteousness of Christ" was truly what Paul was referring to, then he wouldn't have spoken of its "coming" in a FUTURE TENSE.

He would if he was talking to people who hadn't received it yet.

Then perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell us why Paul, IN HIS VERY NEXT BREATH, went on to write:

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." (I Corinthians 14:1)

He wants them to PROPHECY i.e. TEACH. Carry out the office of a 'prophet'. Thats what he wants. Thats the message. Plus how do you know what Paul means by 'spiritual gifts' in this verse. How do you know that what the Pentes and Charismatics are practicing today (kundalini arts) are what Paul was talking about there>?

Yeah, riiggghhhhttttt! "He's fully grown and has put away childish things which are the gifts that are not needed anymore"?

LOL!!! (Actually, it's not funny...it's a crying shame that you believe such nonsense)

Paul went on to say:

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all..." (I Corinthians 14:18)

Ya, obviously he's mentioning that he talks many languages, and thanks Go for that ability (not babbling) but he doesnt push that on the brethren.

Also, everything is NOT in the "past tense" as you erroneously claim. No, it only appears that way when you continually cherry-pick certain verses OUT OF CONTEXT. For example, we read:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY; but then face to face: NOW I KNOW IN PART; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (I Corinthians 13:11-12)

In stark contrast to what you erroneously stated about Paul, Paul himself plainly stated that "NOW WE see through a glass, darkly". Paul was part of that "WE". Paul also plainly stated that "NOW I know in part". Past tense? Not even in your wildest dreams.

You can claim whatever tense you want but the truth is Paul is speaking to a bunch of people...some of whom were falling away, some of whom were saved. He was using them as examples. He can say we or us or you or whaever he like to put his point across. I do that every day when I'm speaking to people. We don't want to get too confused do we? (of course I mean you not we, but its a turn of phrase)

Well, with as much as I've said, I've still let you off easy. Scripture after scripture after scripture testifies against your position (s). Hopefully, you'll come to your senses and reconsider what it is that you actually believe.

Nope. My position is still that larking around in church, babbling...falling down...running around, believing that you can heal people on demand is ALL UNBIBLICAL and I am certain you can never change my position on that no matter what you THINK scripture says. In fact, I shouldn't even be talking to you really:

3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that ​

walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved
not ourselves disorderly among you;​

14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
​

Regards.

 

[Big Drew]

So we're not sanctified until ressurection then Drew?

Not completely. Sorry...but I can't seem to think of my self as holy while I still have this sinful flesh.

 

[Big Drew]

Ok then WHO ARE the pioneers of the Pente movement then?

Can you name them and we will critically examine their teachings on the gifts.

Thanks a lot.

Sure, I can name them...but it's easy enough for you to do a Google search and see for yourself...here's a hint...don't look for anyone that's ever been on TBN, or any television station for that matter...

 

[Big Drew]

When I was a young man living in England in the 1980's I remember watching video on TV of American Pentacostal Christians running around in church, falling down with the waft of a pastors hand, 'tongues', and other disorderly practices.

Do you have any idea how much of a turn off that stuff is for non-believers?

Actually, yes I do...and it's why I don't have much respect for televangelists...they, for the most part, make a mockery of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Big Drew]

Again, if something is really popular does that make it right?

Drugs are really popular. Pop music is really popular. UFC is really popular.

We're told the whole world will be decieved, if possible even the very elect.

Saying the whole of Christendom is embracing Pentacostal theology should make you very wary of that system not encouraged to be part of it.

Where do you think the 'falling away' from the true faith is happening Drew?

In the churches maybe? Where the false teachers are? Just a wild guess.

I will be blessed if I can continue in the minority. PLEASE God keep me there!

We will be joined by the multitude of NEW saints that will come out of the great tribulation.

Of course, most of you guys no doubt think that the entire church will be removed before the trib starts (**groan**).

The difference between your theology and mine is that I don't limit God's power to a book.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Not completely. Sorry...but I can't seem to think of my self as holy while I still have this sinful flesh.

Then you don't understand the finished work of Christ or the spiritual seperation of us IN CHRIST out of this fleshy sinful world. We are NOT OF THIS WORLD if we are in Christ. Thats the whole point Drew.

17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them
into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be
sanctified through the truth.

You are concentrating too much on the things below. Set your sights higher. It's a shame you dont consider yourself Holy. Whats the point in it all eh?​

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Sure, I can name them...but it's easy enough for you to do a Google search and see for yourself...here's a hint...don't look for anyone that's ever been on TBN, or any television station for that matter...

Your unwillingness to divulge your respected teachers is extremely telling. We came forward with Kenneth Copeland and the other dude in the vidoe. Do you endorse those people? If not, why?

Who do you endorse? Why don't you just tell us? Are you ashamed of them?

Actually, yes I do...and it's why I don't have much respect for televangelists...they, for the most part, make a mockery of the Holy Spirit.

Whats the difference between what they do and what the '750 million Pentacostals' who you crow about are practising? What proportion of those are making a mockery of the HS?

The difference between your theology and mine is that I don't limit God's power to a book.

I dont limit God's power. I limit mens power. Men have the book now. We don't need the powers.

 

[Frogster]

The whole book of Corinthians is Paul trying to ween the people away from thinking they can manifest supernatural gifts and practising such. He doesn't want people to do it. He pushes teaching (which is the office of a 'prophet'), faith, love, hope and charity ABOVE ANYTHING.

Regarding tongues:

14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall
speak into the air.​

Can you show me a video of 'tongues' being used correctly in church? With an interpreter maybe? I can t find any.

lol! he was not pushing them AWAY from the gifts, he said seek the gifts! Dude! And stop prooftexting already...

 

[Frogster]

So prophecy is mentioned? So what? There were people in the Body of Christ of prophecied. THE APOSTLES!

this is not about apostles! Show me how! It says..BODY>>
so, has serving stopped?

4 For as in one body we have many members, [5] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, [6] with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

 

[Ih8s8n]

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Corinthians 1:4-8)

The Corinthians "came behind in no gift". The Greek word that is translated as "gift" is "khä'-rē-smä", from which we derive such words as "charisma" or "charismatic". A "gifting" is not necessarily a sign of maturity. For example, as a father of three young children myself, I've often given "gifts" to my own children who are undoubtedly still immature in many areas. That's not a "knock" on my own children, but merely a realistic assessment of their present development coupled with a hope that they will mature further throughout their lifetimes. Anyhow, in regards to the Corinthians, their "gifts" aside, they obviously had some problems. Problems such as division/schisms, a man fornicating with his father's wife, people behaving as gluttons and drunkards at the Lord's table and even some who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead. For these and other reasons, Paul had to address the proper use of such "gifts" to these immature Corinthians. As we examine Paul's instructions to the church at Corinth, we'll also recognize (if we remove our "blinders", that is) that the gifts did NOT pass away at some point in history as some erroneously claim. With this brief introduction, here goes:

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." (I Corinthians 12:1-4)

I'll just pause here momentarily to note that the word "gifts" is the same Greek word "khä'-rē-smä". In other words, there are diversities or different types of "charismas", but they all come from "the same Spirit" or from the Holy Spirit. Continuing on, we read:

"And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal." (I Corinthians 12:5-7)

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal. EVERY MAN. Although I haven't finished reading this thread yet, I have noticed some references back to what transpired back on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2. What I haven't seen yet (it might be there...like I said, I haven't read the entire thread yet) is the following:

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. BUT THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH: AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: AND ON MY SERVANTS AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS I WILL POUR OUT IN THOSE DAYS OF MY SPIRIT; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY..." (Acts 2:14-18)

Peter, who was full of the Holy Ghost himself, looked back to a prophecy of Joel to justify what was transpiring on the day of Pentecost. This justification included God's promise to "pour out my Spirit UPON ALL FLESH" and it also included God's promise that His servants and handmaidens "SHALL PROPHESY". Something for the individual (I think that it was Dr.Strangelove, but I could be wrong...I've only skimmed parts of this thread) who sought to assert that "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:2) means that prophesy is no longer for today to hopefully ponder. Prophesying, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, is very much still applicable for "the last days". Back to I Corinthians:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another diverse kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing TO EVERY MAN as he will." (I Corinthians 12:8-11)

Dividing TO EVERY MAN as he will. The Holy Spirit wills to give EVERY MAN (or woman) at least one of the spiritual gifts or "charismas" that are outlined here. That some on this thread think that their refusal of such Biblical truths is somehow going to stop the very Spirit of God from accomplishing that which He desires is almost comical. Actually, it's quite frightening and probably borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I'm trying to keep myself out of this, but I can't help to recall, TO THE GLORY OF GOD, just what an *AHEM* "proud charismatic" I must be in the blinded eyes of some due to my own past. Not only have I not required ANY medical help for the last 22+ years because I've continually been a recipient of God's "gifts of healings", but I've also, BY THE GRACE OR GIFTING OF GOD, cast out demons in Jesus Christ's name a multitude of times (which required "the discerning of spirits") and even had at least one experience with "a word of knowledge". I'll quickly relate that experience and you'll hopefully understand why this issue literally "strikes home" with me. About 11 years ago or so, I was teaching a Bible study in Pennsylvania and was introduced to a young woman for the first time who attended the study. She had some problems. In fact, she was tormented. Although I discerned her torment to be demonic in nature, when I prayed for her to be delivered (commanded the spirit to come out of her in Jesus' name), the spirit manifested, but would not come out. At this time, the Holy Ghost kept saying (almost shouting) to me, "Abortion...abortion...abortion..." Since I was meeting this young woman for the first time and had absolutely no clue as to her past, I felt a little awkward (to say the least) in asking her if she had had an abortion. Well, lo and behold, she had. As soon as she confessed it as a sin and asked God for forgiveness, she was gloriously delivered from the spirit that had been tormenting her. Why does this experience "strike home" with me? Well, this same young woman and I will be celebrating our 10 year wedding anniversary next February. On top of this, my wife had also been diagnosed with cancer. One day, a friend of ours and I prayed for my wife IN JESUS CHRIST'S NAME and a tumor came out of her, how shall we say, "lower regions". She no longer has cancer. Don't tell me that the gifts aren't for today. My wife (and a whole bunch of other people who I personally know, including myself) are LIVING PROOF of it. Back to I Corinthians:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (I Corinthians 12:12-31)

Paul likens Christians to the members of a body. As each member of a body has its proper function, so too ought EVERY CHRISTIAN have its proper function in the body of Christ. GOD is the One Who "sets the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him", but WE are the ones who ought to be "coveting earnestly the best gifts" so that we can fully carry out our callings or fully function in the body in the way that God has intended us to function. WHO set "miracles", "the gifts of healings", "diversities of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" IN THE CHURCH? GOD DID. Those who oppose such things are in DIRECT OPPOSITION TO GOD. I wouldn't want to be in any of your shoes, come Judgment Day. Furthermore, rather than "boast" of how you have no "GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT", you ought to be hanging your heads in shame and questioning as to whether or not you're really even part of the body of Christ. Sound too extreme of a suggestion? It isn't...if you've understood what Paul wrote. Since I've already typed out I Corinthians chapter 13 in its entirety and briefly commented on it, I'll just include a link to that previous post instead of taking up more bandwidth:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522943-2/#post56425760

I will also mention that, in I Corinthians chapter 13, Paul mentions speaking "with the tongues of angels" alongside "the tongues of men". Just more evidence for the scoffers on this thread to willfully overlook or ignore.

CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST...

 

[Ih8s8n]

...CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST

Continuing on to chapter 14, we read:

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (I Corinthians 14:1-2)

A couple of things. First of all, Christians are once again admonished to "desire spiritual gifts". That some on this thread have no such desires only indicates their abandonment of certain scriptures. Secondly, if those who "speak in an unknown tongue" ONLY refers to those who speak in a different EARTHLY language (as some would have us to believe), then why did all of the people from different countries understand the Apostles (and the rest of the 120) on the day of Pentecost? Paul just said that "NO MAN understandeth him", didn't he? How then can this be referring to ONLY EARTHLY tongues? Reason dictates that it cannot. Continuing on, we read:

"But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieith himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE WITH TONGUES, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." (I Corinthians 14:3-5)

Did you see that? Paul said, "I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE WITH TONGUES." Contrast that with this rubbish that's "hot off the press":

Ya, obviously he's mentioning that he talks many languages, and thanks God for that ability (not babbling) but he doesnt push that on the brethren.

"He doesn't push that on the brethren"? Well, aside from the fact that Paul is NOT talking about the many languages that he speaks, he DOES "push it on the brethren" as we've just seen. Also, we see, once again, how Paul instructs those who speak in an unknown tongue to pray that they might intrepret such tongues as well BECAUSE NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM. NO MAN.

"Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret." (I Corinthians 14:6-13)

I'll pause here for a moment. FAR FROM FORBIDDING THE CORINTHIANS FROM SPEAKING IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE OR REBUKING THEM FOR DOING SO (some more rubbish, "hot off the press")...

He was speaking to Corinthians who were dabbling in all kinds of occultic and pagan practices whilst thinking they were 'operating in the gifts'.

...Paul ENCOURAGES those who are speaking in unknown tongues to "pray that he might interpret" so that the whole church/body could receive edification. In other words, tongues and their accompanying interpretations BUILD UP THE CHURCH and don't tear it down, as some would have us to believe. Furthermore, we read:

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." (I Corinthians 14:14)

LOL!!! (It's actually not funny, but quite sad and disturbing)

Did you hear what PAUL just said? I did. Although there are those (Child of Jesus, Dr.Strangelove) who would have us to believe that when Paul spoke about "speaking in tongues" he was merely referring to all of the different languages that he spoke, this cannot possibly be BECAUSE when Paul prayed in tongues HIS UNDERSTANDING WAS UNFRUITFUL. In other words, when Paul prayed in tongues, HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT HE WAS PRAYING. How then could these tongues have simply been one of the many EARTHLY languages that Paul spoke? Are we to believe that when Paul spoke Hebrew, for example, he didn't understand what he was saying? It's PREPOSTEROUS...and yet, as scary as it is, this is what some posters on this thread would have us to believe. Sorry (not really), but I'm not that gullible and by the grace of God I never will be.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with he understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified." (I Corinthians 14:15-17)

For thou VERILY or TRULY givest thanks well. That's a FAR CRY from the alleged REBUKE that Dr.Strangelove would have us to believe that Paul allegedly gave to those who allegedly "were dabbling in all kinds of occultic and pagan practices". A FAR CRY.

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words WITH MY UNDERSTANDING, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (I Corinthians 14:18-19)

Did you catch that? There's a SECOND CONFIRMATION that even Paul didn't understand what he was saying when he spake in an unknown tongue. So much for that "Paul was referring to the many different EARTHLY languages that he spoke" GARBAGE. Yes, GARBAGE.

"Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." (I Corinthians 14:20-21)

Where exactly "in the law" was this "written"? There's no need to guess.

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: FOR WITH STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE WILL HE SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE. TO WHOM HE SAID, THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YE MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST: AND THIS IS THE REFRESHING: YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isaiah 28:9-13)

I know that that whole "line upon line...precept upon precept...here a little, there a little" is always "quoted" (MIS-) in a positive sense, but, in reality and in context, it is actually stated in a negative sense. In other words, this (seeking to be justified by the law) is what those WHO REFUSE GOD'S REST or WHO REFUSE THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT would cling to instead of turning to Christ. Yes, such folks would ultimately "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". Anyhow, THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YE MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST. WHAT is "the rest"? In context, as Paul just stated in I Corinthians 14:21, THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be any of those on this thread (or elsewhere) who fight against THE VERY REST THAT WAS FOREORDAINED OF GOD. Sorry to shout, but I'm trying to wake some people up to their true conditions as enemies of God...in this particular aspect, at least.

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face, he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (I Corinthians 14:22-28)

Paul only forbad the speaking of tongues in the church if there was no interpreter present.

"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? IF ANY MAN THINK HIMSELF TO BE A PROPHET, OR SPIRITUAL, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE THINGS THAT I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. BUT IF ANY MAN BE IGNORANT, LET HIM BE IGNORANT. WHEREFORE, BRETHREN, COVET TO PROPHESY, AND FORBID NOT TO SPEAK WITH TONGUES. Let all things be done decently and in order." (I Corinthians 14:29-40)

THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. For those who wish to ignore such commandments, the text instructs them to be ignorant still. Those are Paul's words and not mine.

As far as the STRAWMEN of Copeland, Browne, Hinn, etc. are concerned, I've found them all to be FALSE for more reasons than one. I do not support them in any way, shape or form and I have, in fact, warned people about such for many, many years. These charlatans aside, the scriptures still say what they plainly say. In other words, the abuses of some (many) do not negate what God has ordained for His people.

Take care.

 

[Frogster]

I don't get the point yer gettting at here Froggy?

The APOSTLES supplied the Spirit to the Galatians and worked miracles among them. And they did so because of faith not law.

The children recieve the spirit of course. Doesn't mean they recieve supernatural miraculous gifts.

no no, they had the Spirit, they had miracles, and it was the promise of Abe. So by what authority do you remove the Spirit, with the manifestations, from the Abe promise?



Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—


14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

 

[child of Jesus]

Sorry, Jesus didn't operate apart from the giftings.

He didn't heal apart from the gifts of healings, nor did he identify evil spirits aprt from the the discerning of spirits, etc, etc.

Jesus bore no record of Himself, it was GOD The Father operating through Him just like He does through us.

Badmouthing the gifts of The Holy Spirit and His church I think identifies your intentions here.

Arby:
Jesus Christ is GOD.

i wasn't aware you didn't believe that.

God created everything.
God works miracles every day.

God does everything according to His Own Power, and His Own Will.

you may say i am badmouthing the gifts of the Holy Spirit but i have never done any such thing, nor would i ever.

The Holy Spirit is God.

~ but you see, we disagree that the Charismatic Movement is a legitimate work of The Holy Spirit.

did you watch the video of Copeland & Howard-Browne? it would help alot if you would comment on whether or not you believe they, for example, are manifesting the same things you might.

 

[simonthezealot]

once is still proof, that it has not ended!

I disagree it's not a gift! i was in a state of light sleep in the presence of my unbelieving wife (girlfriend at the time) when it happened...If she would not have testified to it i would have never known it happened... I'm inclined to believe that this is NOT a gift, rather God moving how He freely chooses, if i accepted that i personally could control the effects of the spirit in me then i'd need to start taking a serious look at some of the claims the Catholic church makes regarding controlling God's moving through the sacraments and onward down the slippery slope we go.
The Spirit of God works as he wills in the manner which He chooses, it's not us using methods to exercise control of the spiritual realm in order to gain a physical ends...mmm not going to go down the Roman road.

 

[Frogster]

I disagree it's not a gift! i was in a state of light sleep in the presence of my unbelieving wife (girlfriend at the time) when it happened...If she would not have testified to it i would have never known it happened... I'm inclined to believe that this is NOT a gift, rather God moving how He freely chooses, if i accepted that i personally could control the effects of the spirit in me then i'd need to start taking a serious look at some of the claims the Catholic church makes regarding controlling God's moving through the sacraments and onward down the slippery slope we go.
The Spirit of God works as he wills in the manner which He chooses, it's not us using methods to exercise control of the spiritual realm in order to gain a physical ends...mmm not going to go down the Roman road.

My son, everything beith thou art a giftith.

 

[Frogster]

Arby:
Jesus Christ is GOD.

i wasn't aware you didn't believe that.

God created everything.
God works miracles every day.

through people too.

God does everything according to His Own Power, and His Own Will.

you may say i am badmouthing the gifts of the Holy Spirit but i have never done any such thing, nor would i ever.

The Holy Spirit is God.

~ but you see, we disagree that the Charismatic Movement is a legitimate work of The Holy Spirit.

did you watch the video of Copeland & Howard-Browne? it would help alot if you would comment on whether or not you believe they, for example, are manifesting the same things you might.

 

[simonthezealot]

My son, everything beith thou art a giftith.

I'm saying that if i said i possessed the gift of tongues or healing or whatever, then that is not God moving freely as He wills in us...It is more like us summoning him which is tantamount to i'll say this quietly cuz some of my best friends are charismatics, sorcery.