Sunday Sabbath

[Open Heart]

Because it is unfair. But, the Torah observance is not about fairness or equality or ... . Belonging or claiming membership in ANY community requires an individual to compromise. This is no different. I feel very strongly against some rabbinical rulings, yet I obey most of them because that's the price of the "membership". AND, I understand why they ruled as they did and I recognize their authority to do so. I'm not really sure why this would even be a subject for discussion. Christian denominations, too, have community rules and standards. Some are more relaxed than other, but still.... Anyway, here's the point. Anyone is free to disregard the "community standards", and in return, the community is free to disregard such individual. The proper term is to cut off(from the people).

Well said, danny.

It is a lesson in being a Jew. But it is also a lesson in society in general. I'm a typical American who in so many unconscious ways leans towards an extreme individualism. But in studying the Torah, it gives me enough insight to understand that this is flawed. There is a better way. Not that individuals don't count. But there is something more balanced that matters to the Lord. I think that my culture is in for some rude awakenings as the fruits of our individualism come to harvest, and then of course there will be the swing to the opposite pole.

 

[Open Heart]

Of course he knew and approved. I was trying to find out on what grounds a believer was now permitted to eat abominations.

I find it really hard to believe that you were kicked out simply because you chose not to eat pork and shellfish. Are you maintaining that you didn't have a preachy attitude when you went to him? After all, there is a big difference between saying, "It looks to me like the Bible forbids these foods, and I don't understand why the church says they are allowed. Can you explain?" and saying, "Clearly the Bible forbids the abominations! Explain how you can allow them in your church."

 

[Open Heart]

The community standard I accept is that of the Body of Messiah as revealed to us in Scripture. When those standards are set aside and new standards put in place, I have no obligation to obey them. To do so may cause me to sin.

That is not a community standard. Clearly you refuse to go by a community standard. You are a lone wolf.

 

[gadar perets]

I find it really hard to believe that you were kicked out simply because you chose not to eat pork and shellfish. Are you maintaining that you didn't have a preachy attitude when you went to him? After all, there is a big difference between saying, "It looks to me like the Bible forbids these foods, and I don't understand why the church says they are allowed. Can you explain?" and saying, "Clearly the Bible forbids the abominations! Explain how you can allow them in your church."

After the event, I emailed the leader and asked him how he understood Romans 14. He gave me his understanding by saying the weaker brother was a Torah keeper who keeps the dietary laws and the stronger brother believes he can eat all things, including what used to be called abominations. I wrote back and gave him my view of Romans 14 without getting personal in any way. That's when he wrote back saying we were not welcome back. He is the supreme leader of that congregation and does not want to be opposed at all. So be it.

 

[gadar perets]

That is not a community standard. Clearly you refuse to go by a community standard. You are a lone wolf.

Perhaps a lone sheep, but not a lone wolf.

If I had to conform to the Messianic Community standards, would I be required to believe Yeshua is Almighty YHWH? If I had to conform to the Jewish Community standards, would I be required to believe Yeshua is not the Messiah?

 

[visionary]

Yeshua obeyed halakha. He was school of Hillel. God's law is always higher than man's. When God's will violated the will of the priests, then Jesus disobeyed. I thought I made that exception clear in my first post. We are talking about instances where authorities ask you to do things which are stupid and irritating and nonsensical.

For example, my young son has a job washing dishes. He needs to put them away in the prep room in order to have room to wash new dishes. But the prep supervisor has ordered him not to put away dishes while they are cooking. It causes him an extraordinarily big hassle. He's considering getting into her face about it which will get him fired, and he won't listen to me about how maturity is just putting up with unreasonable people in the workplace, especially if they are over you. He lacks obedience and is quick to anger. It is something he needs to work on with the Lord.

Do you agree with the Bible verses I offered?

When God's will violated the will of the priests, then Jesus disobeyed.

I would have preferred that you stated "When the priests violated the Will of God, Yeshua disobeyed."
I wouldn't state any of man's above God's. God's Will never violates.

 

[Open Heart]

When God's will violated the will of the priests, then Jesus disobeyed.

I would have preferred that you stated "When the priests violated the Will of God, Yeshua disobeyed."
I wouldn't state any of man's above God's. God's Will never violates.

I agree that your wording is better!

Do you agree that except when it is a matter of obeying God's decrees, we should obey those in authority over us?

 

[Open Heart]

Perhaps a lone sheep, but not a lone wolf.

If I had to conform to the Messianic Community standards, would I be required to believe Yeshua is Almighty YHWH? If I had to conform to the Jewish Community standards, would I be required to believe Yeshua is not the Messiah?

I'll accept your idea of a lone sheep.

Yes, you would have to accept Trinitarianism. Or at least not make waves about it. I'll be very open with you. It is very difficult for me to accept anything other than complete Echad. There are times I am sitting in church and thing, "I'm a Jew; what am I doing here? This is where Yeshua is worshiped." But I believe with all my heart that the Church has been established by Moshiach on Shavuot and that it has authority to teach, including the authority to establish the canon of Scripture. This is basic Christian teaching, which Messianic Judaism accepts as well. And what that means is that I have to accept that Yeshua is God, because being a Christian is a package deal. So when I have doubts, I simply set them aside in my mind. That's called having faith. I am part of the Body.

 

[Open Heart]

After the event, I emailed the leader and asked him how he understood Romans 14. He gave me his understanding by saying the weaker brother was a Torah keeper who keeps the dietary laws and the stronger brother believes he can eat all things, including what used to be called abominations. I wrote back and gave him my view of Romans 14 without getting personal in any way. That's when he wrote back saying we were not welcome back. He is the supreme leader of that congregation and does not want to be opposed at all. So be it.

Well, I'm sorry you got kicked out. It sounds like he was an intolerant man. You get people like that on both sides of the issue.

 

[gadar perets]

I'll accept your idea of a lone sheep.

Yes, you would have to accept Trinitarianism. Or at least not make waves about it. I'll be very open with you. It is very difficult for me to accept anything other than complete Echad. There are times I am sitting in church and thing, "I'm a Jew; what am I doing here? This is where Yeshua is worshiped." But I believe with all my heart that the Church has been established by Moshiach on Shavuot and that it has authority to teach, including the authority to establish the canon of Scripture. This is basic Christian teaching, which Messianic Judaism accepts as well. And what that means is that I have to accept that Yeshua is God, because being a Christian is a package deal. So when I have doubts, I simply set them aside in my mind. That's called having faith. I am part of the Body.

So, in other words, the entire Protestant movement was not of God because they would not sit quietly back while the "church" fed them lies? I believe it was Spirit led, but was only the beginning of bringing believers out of the dark ages into the light of truth. Messianic Judaism was another step in that purifying direction. Where I am at now is another step into the light. Only those that step into the light can look back and understand the darkness they were in. I am not referring to the darkness of this world. Yeshua has already brought us out of that. I am referring to the darkness of false doctrine.

 

[visionary]

I agree that your wording is better!

Do you agree that except when it is a matter of obeying God's decrees, we should obey those in authority over us?

I shouldn't have them in authority over me if I don't agree.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I shouldn't have them in authority over me if I don't agree.

The "church," including the MJ congregation of every stripe, is imperfect. I think it comes down to finding the one you feel best in and attend there for the fellowship.
Nothing will be truly right until Messiah Yeshua returns and takes his earthly reign.
However, once you've decided to attend a particular congregation, let the Rabbi/pastor run his own congregation.
I wouldn't be willing to be told to do something stupid, though - at least nothing that I know is a sin.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

That is not a community standard. Clearly you refuse to go by a community standard. You are a lone wolf.

The question is, what community? There are so many.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I don't

I know from our previous discussions on the other board that you have problems with Catholic statues and prayers to the saints. I cannot discuss this without defending Catholic doctrine, which is a violation of the SOP. Sorry. You can address this in the denomination specific board here, and drop me a message on my profile page, and I'll join you there.

Hmmm... well be wouldn't the MJ talk be verboten on the Catholic forum? I think you just don't want to address the obvious conflict where observing Torah is concerned.

 

[Open Heart]

Hmmm... well be wouldn't the MJ talk be verboten on the Catholic forum? I think you just don't want to address the obvious conflict where observing Torah is concerned.

I didn't say the Catholic forum (One Bread One Body). I suggested the Denomination Specific Forum. I can see how confusion can easily happen. Here is the link. Denomination-specific Theology

 

[Open Heart]

The question is, what community? There are so many.

Well, we are taking this one step at a time. FIRST we must agree that a community standard is even necessary. THEN we can graduate to arguing about which community.

 

[Open Heart]

I shouldn't have them in authority over me if I don't agree.

Hey I'm with you -- whenever possible, I stay away from such people. But there are times I have no choice. For example, I have a job with multiple supervisors, and a new supervisor is brought in who is just trouble -- it can be difficult to obey. Also, although I vote for the leaders of my country, often the elected officials are ones that really bug me, even alarm me. Yet I have to obey the laws they pass. I have to pay money to support their programs. Even if I protest against them, I must do so non-violently and legally. Fear God and honor the King. 1 Peter 2:17

 

[Open Heart]

So, in other words, the entire Protestant movement was not of God because they would not sit quietly back while the "church" fed them lies? I believe it was Spirit led, but was only the beginning of bringing believers out of the dark ages into the light of truth. Messianic Judaism was another step in that purifying direction. Where I am at now is another step into the light. Only those that step into the light can look back and understand the darkness they were in. I am not referring to the darkness of this world. Yeshua has already brought us out of that. I am referring to the darkness of false doctrine.

The entire Protestant movement is Trinitarian, and is not going to change.

 

[gadar perets]

The entire Protestant movement is Trinitarian, and is not going to change.

You missed my point. The Protestants did not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. They protested against their false teachings. Was their movement not of God because they refused to follow the man made doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church? The answer is "no". Their movement was led by the Spirit. YHWH does not want us to be spoon fed poison. He wants us to refuse it and guard our hearts against false doctrine and false teachers.

 

[Open Heart]

You missed my point. The Protestants did not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. They protested against their false teachings. Was their movement not of God because they refused to follow the man made doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church? The answer is "no". Their movement was led by the Spirit. YHWH does not want us to be spoon fed poison. He wants us to refuse it and guard our hearts against false doctrine and false teachers.

I'd love to answer, but you know that the SOP states that I cannot defend Catholic dogma here. Sorry to disappoint.