Sunday Sabbath

[Open Heart]

So when does the fence become too far from the original command?

How far is too far? Give me your very, very best example, and please cite. I think if it goes too far, the Rabbis will correct it. You don't have Orthodox Jews today saying not to pray healing on someone on the Shabbat.

 

[Open Heart]

Our understanding of what is right and wrong comes from Torah itself, not from man's false interpretation of it. If you want to subject yourself to all the man made laws in the Talmud, go right ahead. I am free from that.

You are STUCK pre-observance. You have to have a working definition of work, and the Torah doesn't give it. The Torah doesn't tell you if reading your Literature homework is work or not. The Torah doesn't tell you if watching TV is acceptable or not. The Torah doesn't tell you if using a microwave to cook is okay or not. Or whether you can mow your lawn, or enter a store, or go out to eat. None of it. Those are interpretations that must be made, and if they are made by individuals, there is chaos instead of community. This is why God granted authority to the Levites and Judges.

 

[gadar perets]

How far is too far? Give me your very, very best example, and please cite. I think if it goes too far, the Rabbis will correct it. You don't have Orthodox Jews today saying not to pray healing on someone on the Shabbat.

Forbidding carrying a handkerchief goes too far. I don't know where it is found.

 

[gadar perets]

You are STUCK pre-observance. You have to have a working definition of work, and the Torah doesn't give it. The Torah doesn't tell you if reading your Literature homework is work or not. The Torah doesn't tell you if watching TV is acceptable or not. The Torah doesn't tell you if using a microwave to cook is okay or not. Or whether you can mow your lawn, or enter a store, or go out to eat. None of it. Those are interpretations that must be made, and if they are made by individuals, there is chaos instead of community. This is why God granted authority to the Levites and Judges.

So are you telling me that modern Jewish judges decide if I can use a microwave to cook and that I must abide by their ruling?? Please, give me a break! You can keep your ridiculous, burdensome rules.

 

[Open Heart]

So are you telling me that modern Jewish judges decide if I can use a microwave to cook and that I must abide by their ruling?? Please, give me a break! You can keep your ridiculous, burdensome rules.

Modern Jewish judges work for me. I use Conservative Halakha. I certainly wouldn't ever determine it alone as an individual -- like I said, chaos rather than community. I don't care what Jewish judicial system one uses as an MJ, whether it's the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council's Standards of Observance, whether it's Orthodox halakha, or whether it's just what your own church or synagogue decides -- I suggest you all do it as a community.

Remember that Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, not a "Just me and Jesus-ism."

 

[visionary]

Never give up your freedom. While you might agree on some matter, and on others you don't see it, doesn't mean you should do it "just because". Man's authority over another is abused too often and it is wiser to think for yourself and study the matter to see if it is so.

 

[Open Heart]

So much for submitting to authority. American individualism at work. Can you hear Frank Sinatra? I'll do it MY way!!!!!

Submit unless asked to do something immoral. God is a higher authority. Not self.

 

[Open Heart]

...

 

[gadar perets]

Modern Jewish judges work for me. I use Conservative Halakha. I certainly wouldn't ever determine it alone as an individual -- like I said, chaos rather than community. I don't care what Jewish judicial system one uses as an MJ, whether it's the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council's Standards of Observance, whether it's Orthodox halakha, or whether it's just what your own church or synagogue decides -- I suggest you all do it as a community.

Remember that Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, not a "Just me and Jesus-ism."

First you said I must accept what the Jewish judges say (including all the Talmudic laws). Now you tell me I can use MJ judicial rulings which, in fact, sometimes differ from Rabbinic rulings. If I can do that, then I can also choose to differ from MJ judicial rulings if I believe they are wrong. I have the same Holy Spirit that those judges have and are perfectly capable of governing my life by that Spirit as it leads me to understand Torah and NT teachings.

Here is an MJRC standard which I refuse to accept:

3.2.1 For our basic practice we will adopt the standards of the Conservative Movement that treat all gelatin and cheese as acceptable.
"Some substances that originate in animal sources undergo such complete change as a result of chemical treatment that they can no longer be regarded as 'meat' products. This is the case with both gelatin and rennet, which Conservative authorities have ruled are kosher." (S. Dresner, Keeping Kosher [United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, 2000], 63.)
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If they want to deceive themselves to believe that something unclean (ie; from a pig) can become clean and edible, that is on them. The Spirit within me says it remains unclean.

 

[Open Heart]

First you said I must accept what the Jewish judges say (including all the Talmudic laws). Now you tell me I can use MJ judicial rulings which, in fact, sometimes differ from Rabbinic rulings. If I can do that, then I can also choose to differ from MJ judicial rulings if I believe they are wrong. I have the same Holy Spirit that those judges have and are perfectly capable of governing my life by that Spirit as it leads me to understand Torah and NT teachings.

The only thing I am telling you not to do is separate yourself from community. We obey Torah together. We sink and swim together. Together we encourage each other. Together we are strong. Apart we are weaker. Apart we begin to make excuses. Apart there is chaos.

As a Jew with no other Jews who are observant nearby, I know first hand how difficult it is. If I believe that long journeys are contrary to Shabbat, and the rest of my family plans get togethers on Shabbat because Sabbath is for family stuff, there are problems. If I separate my meat and dairy, and my Jewish friend brings over chicken cheese sandwiches, there are problems. When I was Orthodox, I had a community that shared the same halakha and things were relaxed -- there wasn't this constant conflict and temptation.

You say you disagree with the MJRC's Standards of Observance on that point. So? The idea is that you adopt a community standard of observance, and not decide it for yourself. Let me ask you a question. Doesn't the synagogue where you attend have any kind of uniform criteria for what you are to do? have you talked to your Rabbi about this?

 

[gadar perets]

The only thing I am telling you not to do is separate yourself from community. We obey Torah together. We sink and swim together. Together we encourage each other. Together we are strong. Apart we are weaker. Apart we begin to make excuses. Apart there is chaos.

I haven't separated myself. I simply will not allow others to dictate to me how to walk. I am a fully mature Spirit led believer who needs not that any man teach me (1 John 2:27).

You say you disagree with the MJRC's Standards of Observance on that point. So? The idea is that you adopt a community standard of observance, and not decide it for yourself. Let me ask you a question. Doesn't the synagogue where you attend have any kind of uniform criteria for what you are to do? have you talked to your Rabbi about this?

Your belief that I must obey the judges of Israel is the issue. I understand you to mean I must obey all Rabbinic rulings. The issue is not whether or not I am in community.

The synagogue I used to attend was divided into clicks. Jews hung out together and Gentiles were looked down upon. As for my Rabbi, I have only one, Yeshua. I have talked to him about many things which is why I believe as I do.

 

[Open Heart]

I haven't separated myself. I simply will not allow others to dictate to me how to walk. I am a fully mature Spirit led believer who needs not that any man teach me (1 John 2:27).


Your belief that I must obey the judges of Israel is the issue. I understand you to mean I must obey all Rabbinic rulings. The issue is not whether or not I am in community.

The synagogue I used to attend was divided into clicks. Jews hung out together and Gentiles were looked down upon. As for my Rabbi, I have only one, Yeshua. I have talked to him about many things which is why I believe as I do.

I personally think it only stands to reason that we need to accept Oral Torah. However, that means we need a community to present it to us, since the Orthodox have their version of Oral Torah, the Conservatives have theirs, MJRC has theirs, etc.

But with you, I'm lowering the bar. I'm asking ONLY that you not set yourself up as the Judge to determine for yourself what the interpretation of Torah is. No one made you Judge. You say in your post above that you have not separated yourself from community, but everything else you have said screams that you have -- IOW there is an inconsistency between what you claim and what you say you do.

Yeshua is our greatest Rabbi, but he has given us authoritative teachers to guide us on our way. In the NT, we have the Apostles and their successors. In the OT we have the judges/pharisees/rabbis. Like Paul, I advocate giving honor to whom honor is due, and not setting myself up as Pope.

 

[visionary]

I personally think it only stands to reason that we need to accept Oral Torah. However, that means we need a community to present it to us, since the Orthodox have their version of Oral Torah, the Conservatives have theirs, MJRC has theirs, etc.

But with you, I'm lowering the bar. I'm asking ONLY that you not set yourself up as the Judge to determine for yourself what the interpretation of Torah is. No one made you Judge. You say in your post above that you have not separated yourself from community, but everything else you have said screams that you have -- IOW there is an inconsistency between what you claim and what you say you do.

Yeshua is our greatest Rabbi, but he has given us authoritative teachers to guide us on our way. In the NT, we have the Apostles and their successors. In the OT we have the judges/pharisees/rabbis. Like Paul, I advocate giving honor to whom honor is due, and not setting myself up as Pope.

You know every prophet ran up against the establishment.. including Yeshua.

 

[Open Heart]

You know every prophet ran up against the establishment.. including Yeshua.

The prophets we hear about did. But there were prophets for every King in Israel, including the good ones. So that would mean there were times that prophets and the establishment got along. Technically, prophets were part of the establishment. You had the three branches of Israel's government: the Levites/Judges, the King, and the Prophet.

 

[visionary]

The prophets we hear about did. But there were prophets for every King in Israel, including the good ones. So that would mean there were times that prophets and the establishment got along. Technically, prophets were part of the establishment. You had the three branches of Israel's government: the Levites/Judges, the King, and the Prophet.

As long as you understand, we do not give up our freedom to decide... there is enough mass followings of false... to kill millions.

 

[gadar perets]

I personally think it only stands to reason that we need to accept Oral Torah. However, that means we need a community to present it to us, since the Orthodox have their version of Oral Torah, the Conservatives have theirs, MJRC has theirs, etc.

So, are you saying it is OK to go against the "Oral Torah" as long as you are part of a community that agrees not to accept it in certain areas? When communities differ, who de we follow? If I follow the MJ community, then the orthodox community will accuse me of not following the judges of Israel. If I follow the orthodox community, then the MJ community will accuse me of not following them.

But with you, I'm lowering the bar. I'm asking ONLY that you not set yourself up as the Judge to determine for yourself what the interpretation of Torah is. No one made you Judge. You say in your post above that you have not separated yourself from community, but everything else you have said screams that you have -- IOW there is an inconsistency between what you claim and what you say you do.

The "bar" is Torah, not "Oral Torah". I am part of a congregation and am not separated. YHWH has brought us together and we agree in doctrine for the most part.

Yeshua is our greatest Rabbi, but he has given us authoritative teachers to guide us on our way. In the NT, we have the Apostles and their successors. In the OT we have the judges/pharisees/rabbis. Like Paul, I advocate giving honor to whom honor is due, and not setting myself up as Pope.

I am a teacher of the Word. I also honor other teachers except when they teach falsely.

I was part of the Christian community until I accepted the Sabbath contrary to their "judges" teachings. They kicked me out of the church and turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. I joined myself to a Sabbath keeping group. Then YHWH showed me that He is not Yeshua and vice versa. I was kicked out of not only that community, but was told I am no longer a member of the Body of Messiah. I then joined an MJ community. I lovingly explained to the "leader" my view of Romans 14 and how the weaker brother was a vegetarian and the stronger brother a Torah keeper. He told me the weaker brother was a Torah keeper, but the stronger brother was free to eat all things. He then told me and my family to not come back to their community.

The "judges/leaders/teachers" of all those communities are the popes who rule their people with unscriptural, man-made rules and doctrines. I praise YHWH for delivering my family and I out of their unscriptural influence.

 

[AbbaLove]

I am a teacher of the Word. I also honor other teachers except when they teach falsely.

I was part of the Christian community until I accepted the Sabbath contrary to their "judges" teachings. They kicked me out of the church and turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. I joined myself to a Sabbath keeping group. Then YHWH showed me that He is not Yeshua and vice versa. I was kicked out of not only that community, but was told I am no longer a member of the Body of Messiah. I then joined an MJ community. I lovingly explained to the "leader" my view of Romans 14 and how the weaker brother was a vegetarian and the stronger brother a Torah keeper. He told me the weaker brother was a Torah keeper, but the stronger brother was free to eat all things. He then told me and my family to not come back to their community.

Your experience is similar to the following testimony ... My Testimony

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[Rachel Rachel]

The only thing I am telling you not to do is separate yourself from community. We obey Torah together. We sink and swim together. Together we encourage each other. Together we are strong. Apart we are weaker. Apart we begin to make excuses. Apart there is chaos.

As a Jew with no other Jews who are observant nearby, I know first hand how difficult it is. If I believe that long journeys are contrary to Shabbat, and the rest of my family plans get togethers on Shabbat because Sabbath is for family stuff, there are problems. If I separate my meat and dairy, and my Jewish friend brings over chicken cheese sandwiches, there are problems. When I was Orthodox, I had a community that shared the same halakha and things were relaxed -- there wasn't this constant conflict and temptation.

You say you disagree with the MJRC's Standards of Observance on that point. So? The idea is that you adopt a community standard of observance, and not decide it for yourself. Let me ask you a question. Doesn't the synagogue where you attend have any kind of uniform criteria for what you are to do? have you talked to your Rabbi about this?

OH, I have a couple of questions for you, asked in all sincerity and not intended to be contentious. Truly.

As an “observant Jew” who believes Rabbinic Law and Oral Law should be observed on Saturday and then on Sunday, you’re an observant Catholic who believes it’s correct to pray to dead saints, bow to a graven image of Mary, and pray vain repetitions, how do you decide what to do Monday through Friday?

And do you see no conflict between the observant Jew Open Heart and the observant Catholic Open Heart?

 

[danny ski]

The resistance to the community standards is understandable. Especially among those who are not Jewish or the Jews who rejected their heritage. But. This should be kept in mind. Gd spoke to Joshua and said "Israel has sinned", but it was not the nation that transgressed, but an individual. What is the lesson, here?

 

[gadar perets]

Your experience is similar to the following testimony ... My Testimony

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That's because it is my testimony and my website.