Stop blaming Blacks!

[Ken-1122]

Think Dennis Prager, for one. One of his recent "Fireside Chats" was on that very topic.

I'm not familiar with the guy. Do you agree with him?

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

What has changed is the responsibility for racism. In the beginning it was likely 100 percent the fault of whites. Now the responsibility can be shared almost equally, imo. Minorities have much more control of their destiny than they did 100 years ago.

There was a time, twenty or thirty years ago, when I accepted that as a true statement.
I was wrong.

 

[Ken-1122]

There was a time, twenty or thirty years ago, when I accepted that as a true statement.
I was wrong.

What convinced you to believe otherwise?

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

I'm not familiar with the guy. Do you agree with him?

No. In many ways I find him a genuinely likeable guy and a good teacher. The problem is not so much that he teaches falsehoods as that he leaves things out. And the stuff he leaves out makes a big difference.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

What convinced you to believe otherwise?

New information.

 

[Ken-1122]

No. In many ways I find him a genuinely likeable guy and a good teacher. The problem is not so much that he teaches falsehoods as that he leaves things out. And the stuff he leaves out makes a big difference.

Okay; let me rephrase. I cannot imagine any reasonable person believing racism or any other type of hatred no longer exists.

 

[Ken-1122]

New information.

What new information gave you the impression minorities in America do not have control of their destiny?

 

[bèlla]

Working together is part of their communality and culture. So, often the individual only moves at the speed of the group economically. Then, looking at the community (the group) we see other factors that limit the success of all, mainly the lack of education, poor health, and resistance to integrating socially and culturally. In other words they suffer most from self-inflicted wounds and limitations that only they themselves can remedy. Racism is often a convenient scapegoat, mostly proffered by advocates and activists for minorities.

You realize I’m a woman of color? You’re describing something I haven’t experienced personally or witnessed in those I knew. Maybe Southerners differ? I’m not sure.

What I’ve seen are the principles I put forth in the family unit. Securing their welfare was foremost and additional aid was trickled out. But the family comes first.

They didn’t emphasize racism or social challenges. We were told to excel and work in our capacity at its highest rate. And they didn’t embrace stereotypes or limiting ideals. We were taught to thrive in society while maintaining our dignity and poise.

Group think minimizes our divine blueprint.

~Bella

 

[Ophiolite]

It works both ways; some jobs leave the country, some jobs come to this country it kinda works out. But most people in the Ghetto aren't poor because their jobs left for foreign countries; it's a little more complicated than that.

Obviously more complicated and a forum is not the place to deliver an eighty page dissertation with comprehensive bibliography addressing some of those complications, but none of that changes the binary option:

• One considers that no one is owed a job.
• One considers that the right to work is an essential part of human dignity.

Now we know which side each of us comes down on.

 

[Ken-1122]

Obviously more complicated and a forum is not the place to deliver an eighty page dissertation with comprehensive bibliography addressing some of those complications, but none of that changes the binary option:

• One considers that no one is owed a job.
• One considers that the right to work is an essential part of human dignity.

Now we know which side each of us comes down on.

*There are far more options than the two mentioned
*I don’t think you and have had enough of a conversation to know each other’s views.

 

[Ophiolite]

*There are far more options than the two mentioned
*I don’t think you and have had enough of a conversation to know each other’s views.

Well, unless you were lying or writing incompetently, then I know your view matches precisely the first option, for you told me:

Nobody owes anybody a job

And I've told you my view matches the second option, so I think we - demonstrably - have had sufficient conversation to establish your view and my view on the matter. I'm surprised you deny it. Or did you wish to retract your original statement?

 

[Ken-1122]

Well, unless you were lying or writing incompetently, then I know your view matches precisely the first option, for you told me:


And I've told you my view matches the second option, so I think we - demonstrably - have had sufficient conversation to establish your view and my view on the matter. I'm surprised you deny it. Or did you wish to retract your original statement?

The question I was responding to was about the Gangsta culture in some of the Black communities. The response that too many factory jobs are moving overseas has nothing to do with this culture, people are not joining street gangs because a factory closed down. This is what I was talking about that we don’t know each other’s views on the issue.
Now if you want to change the subject and talk about jobs moving overseas, I’m fine with that but recognize until a few months ago, we had record low unemployment for minorities in this country and when this pandemic is over with I’m sure it will be record low again so if there were ever a time that jobs moving over seas was an issue, today’s economy is not the time for that complaint.

 

[Ophiolite]

The question I was responding to was about the Gangsta culture in some of the Black communities. The response that too many factory jobs are moving overseas has nothing to do with this culture, people are not joining street gangs because a factory closed down. This is what I was talking about that we don’t know each other’s views on the issue.
Now if you want to change the subject and talk about jobs moving overseas, I’m fine with that but recognize until a few months ago, we had record low unemployment for minorities in this country and when this pandemic is over with I’m sure it will be record low again so if there were ever a time that jobs moving over seas was an issue, today’s economy is not the time for that complaint.

I was addressing your specific claim that "Nobody owes anybody a job." That viewpoint is responsible for an attitude to certain of societies problems that inhibits solutions and in some cases generates, sustains, or promotes racism.
You have not withdrawn your statement, so I presume you stand by it. You can ignore, or deny your responsibilites for the consequences I outlined above, but that would not change those responsibilities.

 

[Ken-1122]

I was addressing your specific claim that "Nobody owes anybody a job." That viewpoint is responsible for an attitude to certain of societies problems that inhibits solutions and in some cases generates, sustains, or promotes racism.
You have not withdrawn your statement, so I presume you stand by it. You can ignore, or deny your responsibilites for the consequences I outlined above, but that would not change those responsibilities.

first of all I agree with both of the statements, I agree nobody owes anybody else a job; AND I agree the right to work is an essential part of human dignity. It isn’t only one of the other. But you are complaining about a non issue; a lack of jobs is not an issue in todays economy. However, if you are going to insist some people owe other people jobs, are YOU providing jobs? If not, how dare you insist others do what you are unwilling/unable to do. As they say; be the change you want to see in the world

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

Is anybody owed a job?

If you treat the question as a simple yes/no binary response, then of course the answer is no. But it's not a simple yes/no. You have to deal with social assumptions, which change over time. Back in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, business owners pretty much called the shots, offering jobs to whomever they chose to make an offer, and paying whatever they thought was good enough.

The Great Depression threw the old system for a loop, and tremendous changes were made under Franklin Roosevelt. By the 1950s--an often-ridiculed decade--there was a consensus about the relationship between ownership/management and labor that was much improved over the earlier model. But then in the 1970s that began to be rolled back, until it became economic orthodoxy to believe that the primary function of a corporation was to earn a profit for its shareholders, and everything else was subservient to that.

Just last year the American business community put out a position paper that recognized that workers were "stakeholders" in a business and deserved recognition. Mainline Republicans are opposed to that, just as they are opposed to having any minimum wage. The Democratic position today might at times go further than is wise, but the Republican position tends to push toward a lot of things that Jesus (along with the Apostle James and a whole lot of Old Testament prophets) outright condemned.

Maybe nobody is owed a job, but that doesn't mean that the rights of workers are of no importance. There is a good balance somewhere, but it won't be found in the thinking of your typical economist or Republican politician.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You realize I’m a woman of color? You’re describing something I haven’t experienced personally or witnessed in those I knew. Maybe Southerners differ? I’m not sure.

What I’ve seen are the principles I put forth in the family unit. Securing their welfare was foremost and additional aid was trickled out. But the family comes first.

They didn’t emphasize racism or social challenges. We were told to excel and work in our capacity at its highest rate. And they didn’t embrace stereotypes or limiting ideals. We were taught to thrive in society while maintaining our dignity and poise.

Group think minimizes our divine blueprint.

~Bella

I never would have guessed that you are a woman of color.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Obviously more complicated and a forum is not the place to deliver an eighty page dissertation with comprehensive bibliography addressing some of those complications, but none of that changes the binary option:

• One considers that no one is owed a job.
• One considers that the right to work is an essential part of human dignity.

Now we know which side each of us comes down on.

Many consider the "right to work" to mean they have a right to the job of their choosing.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, unless you were lying or writing incompetently, then I know your view matches precisely the first option, for you told me:


And I've told you my view matches the second option, so I think we - demonstrably - have had sufficient conversation to establish your view and my view on the matter. I'm surprised you deny it. Or did you wish to retract your original statement?

That "no one is owed a job" is just one piece of a larger puzzle.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I was addressing your specific claim that "Nobody owes anybody a job." That viewpoint is responsible for an attitude to certain of societies problems that inhibits solutions and in some cases generates, sustains, or promotes racism.
You have not withdrawn your statement, so I presume you stand by it. You can ignore, or deny your responsibilities for the consequences I outlined above, but that would not change those responsibilities.

The next question is what kind of job are the people in question entitled to?

 

[Ken-1122]

I never would have guessed that you are a woman of color.

White is just as much as a color as black, brown, or anything else.