Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God

[fhansen]

"Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News"




https://www.amazon.com/Sinners-Hands-Loving-God-Scandalous/dp/1601429517

I've also experienced this profound love, so "wide and long and high and deep", "this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God" (Eph 3:18) and came to find out that this is exactly why Jesus came, to reveal the true God.

Man makes God in our own image, but we're the problem; we're petty and jealous and angry and prideful and competitive and power hungry while God is everything described in 1 Cor 13:4-8. We tend to think that the greatest being would be angry and distant and aloof in His superiority and power but instead He's self-sacrificing mercy and love-humble, even-amazingly. While Adam, who knew God better than we do, mistrusted Him for all practical purposes, we now find God to be different, to be 100% true, infinitely trustworthy and good.

With the New Covenant, God gives us the grace to look higher than and beyond ourselves, to see something that overcomes the "distorted image" that man conceived of God at the Fall, according to a teaching I'm familiar with. This is an aspect of our reconciliation with God, as we come to know Him, to regain the "knowledge of God" that was essentially lost at the Fall. This is about communion, direct knowledge of God, even as it remains dim in this life compared to the next where we will "know and be fully known" (1 Cor 13). This knowledge is the object of faith, and is the knowledge spoken of in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:34. This is the reason Jesus came, so that we may know Him and the Father. "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3).

We're to come out of the darkness, no longer 'hating Him without reason' (John 15:25). In a nutshell, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Enmity and anger has always come from man, not Him, even as He opposes and hates evil. But wait, He also forgives it as it turns out. We're just here to gain wisdom, to ultimately gain the knowledge of God that goes deeper than intellectual knowledge. Only Jesus can reveal that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I can see an argument for many annihilated, though I don't see how anyone can get around some in eternal torment. And, if some, then the question is what makes those some (like the ones who got the mark of the beast) eternally different that they can go through eternal torment while others don't--if non-believers are all the same substance.

The last two are outside of Scripture. God seems really concerned about being called a liar, so I can't imagine that Jesus--who is and who was and who is to come--would talk about gehenna and hades, as if they were real, and then it not be real. If dead is dead, then there is no real cost to those who just live for this world. They just die and that is what they expected anyway, because they rejected the idea of a sovereign God other than themselves.

After everyone is Judged and either redeemed or in the lake of fire, Jesus says behold, I make all things new. I can only support Annihilation or Ultimate Reconciliation, in that the manifest of "all things" no longer includes those in the lake of fire, or those in the lake of fire will be redeemed also. I tend to lean towards Ultimate reconciliation because of the concept of God speaking things forth and them not returning to Him void. In the beginning God had a good purpose for all of us, and that breath spoken forth as we were born and given life will return to him, and fulfill the purpose He gave it.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

I've also experienced this profound love, so "wide and long and high and deep", "this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God" (Eph 3:18) and came to find out that this is exactly why Jesus came, to reveal the true God.

Man makes God in our own image, but we're the problem; we're petty and jealous and angry and prideful and competitive and power hungry while God is everything described in 1 Cor 13:4-8. We tend to think that the greatest being would be angry and distant and aloof in His superiority and power but instead He's self-sacrificing mercy and love-humble, even-amazingly. While Adam, who knew God better than we do, mistrusted Him for all practical purposes, we now find God to be different, to be 100% true, infinitely trustworthy and good.

With the New Covenant, God gives us the grace to look higher than and beyond ourselves, to see something that overcomes the "distorted image" that man conceived of God at the Fall, according to a teaching I'm familiar with. This is an aspect of our reconciliation with God, as we come to know Him, to regain the "knowledge of God" that was essentially lost at the Fall. This is about communion, direct knowledge of God, even as it remains dim in this life compared to the next where we will "know and be fully known" (1 Cor 13). This knowledge is the object of faith, and is the knowledge spoken of in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:34. This is the reason Jesus came, so that we may know Him and the Father. "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3).

We're to come out of the darkness, no longer 'hating Him without reason' (John 15:25). In a nutshell, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). Enmity and anger has always come from man, not Him, even as He opposes and hates evil. But wait, He also forgives it as it turns out. We're just here to gain wisdom, to ultimately gain the knowledge of God that goes deeper than intellectual knowledge. Only Jesus can reveal that.

Indeed. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (as Paul stated)...inward/inner truth being revealed that the mind of man cannot perceive...the truth of who we have always been but didn't know we were (til it be revealed by the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[com7fy8]

With the first one? The mention of the "eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"? If He prepared that for the Devil and his angels.....why would His plan (God's plan) involve leaving [some of/most of] His creation of humans in it? Jesus didn't say He'd *leave them* there....correct? Couldn't Matthew 25:41 be very similar in meaning to the Parable of the Prodigal Son?

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). This will be staying somewhere. And there are humans who are of this evil and selfish and stubborn spirit; so they are at risk of remaining with it where it is going to stay.

Right now I take that passage to mean that evil will pass away with His love (eventually) winning out.

His love is winning out, now, in ones who obey. But there are ones who are refusing.

His "fire" I believe is transforming....not obliterating the human, but purifying them.

This so works in ones who obey the Gospel now. But others will reap what they have been sowing > Galatians 6:7-8 < what you reap spiritually will be so much more than you have been sowing, now. And for ones who reap corruption, fire will be for containment so their nasty filth of the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2) . . . Satan's spirit of disobedience . . . does not go elsewhere. So, like I offer, it's not only for tormenting and torturing, but the fire is practical for controlling ones who are so stubborn.

It is like how fire does not transform a lion into a nice kitty cat. But a kitten can benefit from the warming of the same fire which a lion fears.

BTW....Daniel knew a bit about fires....didn't he? I'd guess that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had described their experience to him.

That fire killed the men who threw Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego into the furnace. So, the same fire meant one thing for the enemies and another thing for Shadrach, Mechach, and Abed-Nego.

The Bible says we will reap what we sow. It does not say anyone will go into non-existence or that the reapers of corruption will then become refined. We can become refined, now, in this life with Jesus, then reap in the resurrection. Hebrews 12:4-11 is clear how now our God and Father of Jesus Christ is able to correct us and prepare us for eternity with Him. And our Apostle Paul says our time is now.

Also....it's been a while since I've looked into this, but from my memory...the original word translated to "eternal" in 2 Thess. was "aionios". Aionios is a period of time (not always "eternal").

IF God is wrath....then a person would have trouble fitting this verse together with the belief that God is omnipotent:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".~2nd Peter 3:9

Romans 8:29 says God will change His children into the image of Jesus, so we are ready to spend eternity with Him. So, in case anyone really believes they will spend eternity with Jesus, we need to be getting His real correction now so we are ready.

Various words can indeed have different and even exact opposite meanings. But the meaning of God's word is how He will change His children to become like Christ. And Hebrews 12:4-11 is clear that we now need to actively seek God for this correction, and not try to just do some self-disciplining thing. And if we don't, it is clear > "no one will see the Lord."

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

Right now, each of us is getting a sample in us of how we will become so much moreso after we die. We already are experiencing how Heaven is, because of God's love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5); or we already are experiencing "torment" which our selfish nature makes us weak and degraded enough to suffer > 1 John 4:18. Whichever each of us has gotten started in will be reaped . . . greatly multiplied . . . in the resurrection. And what is spiritual does not go out of existence.

Our feelings and emotions can come and go, and ones might suppose this means things can go out of existence and out of consciousness. But the spiritual source does not go out of existence. There will be people sharing with Satan in his spirit, and we in Jesus will share with Jesus our Groom in His Holy Spirit of His love.

 

[com7fy8]

Perhaps you are new to this topic. Those verses have been addressed here many times before.

And yet, someone has started a thread about this topic; so I am offering what I have . . . here. And I have above offered an explanation or two.

One thing I think needs consideration is how we will reap what we have been sowing > Galatians 6:7-8. And God's word does not say that reapers of "corruption" will later somehow be reaping eternal life. We can grow in God's love, now, in Jesus, then reap spiritually all we can become, like Jesus, in the resurrection.

Meanwhile . . . ones who have lived selfishly will then become all they can be, in full intensity, in their resurrection. They won't have any nice created human body to help them feel some pleasure they treasure, in order to try to not feel their deep nasty awful-mess of their selfishness-infected nature.

Now is the time to avoid this, instead of procrastinating while getting "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

Yes, there are people who are growing in their corruption while they preach hell. And I am curious if ones are warning others about reaping what we sow, while they claim universal salvation and no hell.

Our Apostle Peter says we need to be delivered from "the corruption that is in the world through lust" > in 1 Peter 1:4. Lust for selfish pleasure is very deeply degrading. It keeps one in weakness so later the pain can come, in the form of bitterness, frustration, nasty reacting anger, unforgiveness, fears and worry, lingering hurts, and desperation for more pleasure to try to make us not feel that nasty stuff of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

So, I'm curious if ones who believe in annihilation and no hell are busy with seeking God to cure them so the corruption of lust can not mess them. And are they now obeying how our Apostle Paul says to stop our arguing and complaining so we can become God's way in His love >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:14-16)

This means how right in this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation" we can become "blameless and harmless, children of God without fault" . . . the way His all-loving love with almighty power easily can purify and mature us, now. So, why would anyone who knows this word of God be hoping for people to change only after they die? The Bible says now. God commands this; so God expects this; so God knows this is reasonable and realistic . . . because of how God in us is able to do this with us who are His children.

So, if we believe this is God's word, I would think our attention would emphasize this.

 

[mkgal1]

I, personally, believe we need to take a few steps back in this discussion (because the OP is about Zahnd's book....and a few assumptions have already been interjected and ran with).

First of all....this book isn't a case for Christian Universalism. Zahnd has mentioned quite a bit that he's not of that belief (here's one place--in the comment section: He wrote, "Again, I'm not a universalist, but there is a legitimate case to made that the Apostle Paul may have been."~https://brianzahnd.com/2015/07/george-macdonalds-spiritual-journey-and-mine-too/).

What Zahnd *is* making a case for is that we've imposed a modern belief of what the "Gospel message" is onto Scripture and missed what Peter and Paul's message was. Their message wasn't, "how to go to heaven and not hell when you die". Their gospel was the announcement that the world has a new King....a new emperor...a new Lord (a loving one....not one that oppresses the weak and poor). They preached that the Kingdom of God is now. To understand more of his stance, here's some from one of his blog posts:

The gospel has been thought of almost exclusively in terms of getting people ready to die. But this is not how Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom.

Yes, salvation certainly includes an escape from hell and a home in heaven at death, but in the way Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom it is obvious He was emphasizing a kingdom that would transform lives now which would in turn ultimately lead to a transformation of society. The Gospel as Jesus preached it is not primarily about how to go to heaven when you die, but how to live the abundant life of the Kingdom now.~https://brianzahnd.com/2006/03/discovering-the-kingdom/

....the mainstream church has minimized the message.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, God's love doesn't equate to universal salvation. Because he won't force that love on us. He won't force us to love. So, then, we can have what we want.

 

[mkgal1]

The Lord Jesus in the New Testament talks more about hell than about heaven. Presumably the idea is that we don't want to go there.

Zahnd addresses this [myth] in the book as well. Passages that we've been taught to read as being about hell are actually thought to be about a prediction of Jeremiah's pertaining to the sinful rebellion of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 32). When Jesus is quoted as saying to the Pharisees, "You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell [Ghenna]?". They didn't escape! In AD 70 the Roman general Titus destroyed Jerusalem, killing thousands in the process. Zahnd writes, "Jerusalem had gone to hell.....again".

Zahnd also brings up Luke 13....asserting this passage is talking about a literal hell in *this* life. He writes, "Jesus is not talking about hell, or at least not an afterlife hell. Jesus isn't talking about what happens to people when they die. Jesus is talking about an avoidable threat in this life. In effect Jesus is saying, "Unless you rethink everything, embrace the way of peace that I am teaching, and abandon your hell-bent flight toward violent revolution, you're all going to die by Roman swords, and collapsing buildings". That's exactly what happened 40 years later when the city collapsed under the bombardment of Roman catapult balls (the "hundred-pound hailstones" written about) and more than half a million people were killed by Roman swords. Jerusalem had become hell.

Ray Vanderlaan also writes about this being the backdrop for Jesus' ministry:

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

Clearly, Jesus predicted the destruction that would result from the revolt (Matt. 24:1-2). It led him to weep on one occasion as he described exactly what would happen (Luke 19:41-44). It seems that Jesus was saddened because his fellow Jews looked for military solutions to their problems rather than spiritual ones, to a political messiah rather than the Lamb of God. He warned his followers not to take part in that method of bringing in God's kingdom. The coming destruction was not God's judgment as much as it was the natural result of human beings seeking salvation through their own political and military might. Jesus' method was the opposite of such an approach.

We must be able to weep with Jesus because the destruction wrought by the two Jewish revolts resulted from people seeking God in the wrong places and ways. We must be devoted to Jesus the Messiah's message, for he truly is God's hope of peace (Luke 2:14).
~The Jewish Revolts

As he came near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 Indeed, the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up ramparts around you and surround you, and hem you in on every side. 44 They will crush you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave within you one stone upon another; because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”~Luke 19:41-44

 

[Tree of Life]

"Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News"




https://www.amazon.com/Sinners-Hands-Loving-God-Scandalous/dp/1601429517

Looks like a load of hogwarsh!

 

[mkgal1]

Looks like a load of hogwarsh!

You believe it's "hogwarsh" to believe in a "loving God" and "good news"? You're free to believe that (and welcome to elaborate, if I got that incorrect)....but....

 

[Tree of Life]

You believe it's "hogwarsh" to believe in a "loving God" and "good news"? You're free to believe that...but....

Diminishing the wrath of God does not enhance our understanding of his love. It destroys it.

 

[mkgal1]

Diminishing the wrath of God does not enhance our understanding of his love. It destroys it.

"Or do you have contempt for the riches of God’s generosity, tolerance, and patience? Don’t you realize that God’s kindness is supposed to lead you to change your heart and life?"~Romans 2:4​

 

[Tree of Life]

"Or do you have contempt for the riches of God’s generosity, tolerance, and patience? Don’t you realize that God’s kindness is supposed to lead you to change your heart and life?"~Romans 2:4​

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Romans 1:18). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Romans 2:6–8). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

 

[mkgal1]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Romans 1:18). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Romans 2:6–8). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

I'm not going to engage in a battle of the verses with you. You can choose which lens you'd like to view the Bible through. Our interpretations have more to do with our own selves than they have to do with God.

 

[mkgal1]

Can we look at this verse that @com7fy8 posted a bit more?

Matthew 25:41-46

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
​

If Jesus truly meant that's the basis for either ongoing (without end...) punishment or ongoing life...then why don't all that believe in that follow His words seriously here (and welcome the strangers--like refugees from war-torn areas--feed the hungry.....visit the imprisoned...clothe the naked)?

This passage doesn't say, "just say a prayer and proclaim you believe in me and you will go to heaven".

 

[fat wee robin]

I believe Edwards believed every bit of his sermon....so that wouldn't make it a lie. Why would Edward's interpretation be given such weight, though?

Because he and the other puritans were in the business of fear making ,in order to control people ,and often to take their land etc.

 

[Marvin Knox]

IF God is wrath....then a person would have trouble fitting this verse together with the belief that God is omnipotent:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".~2nd Peter 3:9 ​

It's not really any trouble at all.

A judge could wish that Ted Bundy would not suffer the death penalty. He could wish that every person in the world would refrain from the kinds of sinful impulses which landed Bundy in his courtroom.

At the same time he could and would pound his gavel on the bench and pronounce the death penalty on Bundy for his many crimes.

God is, to those who are perishing, wrath. God is, to those who are justified, mercy.

His decision to show mercy through the fate of some while showing wrath through the fate of others would in no way display His lack of potency. To the contrary His decision would display His potency.

There is no conflict whatsoever in saying that God possesses and displays both the attribute of righteousness (with attendant rightful wrath) and love (with attendant grace and mercy).​

 

[mkgal1]

It's not really any trouble at all.

A judge could wish that Ted Bundy would not suffer the death penalty. He could wish that every person in the world would refrain from the kinds of sinful impulses which landed Bundy in his courtroom.

At the same time he could and would pound his gavel on the bench and pronounce the death penalty on Bundy for his many crimes.

There is no conflict whatsoever in saying that God possesses both the attribute of righteousness with attendant rightful wrath and love with attendant grace and mercy.

I believed that for a long time as well. However.....now I can actually believe His news *is* truly "good news" that He eventually will "make ALL things new". 2nd Peter words it as a promise (that everyone will come to repentance)...and that's what I believe. God wins....His love never fails.

It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.~Isaiah 55:11

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4)​

....but I don't believe that's the basis of this book. I believe Zahnd is encouraging us to be more mindful about how we're living right now (to live as though we are citizens of The Kingdom of God). He asserts that Jesus taught us that the nations that ignore the "least of these" are on the path to a smoldering Gehenna. He writes that the Golden Rule is the narrow gate that leads to life. The narrow gate isn't a sinner's prayer but a life of love and mercy. That seems to me to be the main message in his book. Zahnd writes: ​

"It should be noted that when Jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven, He is not talking about an after-life kingdom in heaven but the reign and rule of God that comes from heaven. The kingdom of God is the government of God."​

​

 

[ClementofA]

Diminishing the wrath of God does not enhance our understanding of his love. It destroys it.

Wrath is a good thing:

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

It's not really any trouble at all.

A judge could wish that Ted Bundy would not suffer the death penalty. He could wish that every person in the world would refrain from the kinds of sinful impulses which landed Bundy in his courtroom.

At the same time he could and would pound his gavel on the bench and pronounce the death penalty on Bundy for his many crimes.

​

Ted Bundy, the serial killer. That recalls another serial killer-Inquisitionist of men & females, in the Scriptures. He later wrote half the NT & called himself the chief of sinners.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism