• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +570
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News"


    https://www.amazon.com/Sinners-Hands-Loving-God-Scandalous/dp/1601429517
     
  2. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

    +89,651
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Constitution
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ

    +3,732
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Luke 12 NIV
    5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

    Hebrews 10 KJV
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    John 3
    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Without Jesus, we're toast.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    Well.....there's also this passage:

    .

    I'm reading Zahnd's book right now (and wish more would).
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    I believe Edwards believed every bit of his sermon....so that wouldn't make it a lie. Why would Edward's interpretation be given such weight, though?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  6. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,826
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Knowing Paul Young, this book is, no doubt, an argument for Universal Salvation. The title of the book is clearly a play on Jonathan Edwards famous sermon. So, for all you who disagree with Universal Salvation, please note that this is the point of Clement's thread.
     
  7. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,656
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    God knows exactly what to do with each sinner.

    "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

    So, while anyone is playing themselves to be God and the judge of God, they are having a run-in with God's resistance. His resistance can include some very hard things . . . in order to keep an enemy from getting oneself into much worse trouble, going the way Satan is taking that person.

    If there is wrath, this has to do partly with the nature of the sinner. God is love, but love "is a consuming fire", I offer, considering Hebrews 12:29. One thing in fire will come out better, because of its nature. But a nasty thing will burn and give off very smelly smoke, because of its nature . . . in the exact same fire.

    Christians pray for God to fire-try us to refine us in Him and His love. But sinners are burnt about God. And because they do not seek the correction of God's fire, there is only one place to go, where their nasty filth will be contained by fire so it does not go elsewhere.
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    I think it all goes back to what variety of ruler we perceive God to be.

    So far, in reading this book I appreciate that Zahnd allows Scripture to speak for itself. He brings up Matthew 25:31 and brings up the point that *no where* does Jesus ever claim that those who have done evil will be tortured eternally. Jesus *does* say (on the other hand) that they will face judgement (that's different, though).

    Also (another thing I'm appreciating) is Zahnd points out that in reading Matthew 26:64 (and the parallel in Daniel 7:13) we see that Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man referred to in Daniel 7, the humane ruler who is the alternative to the beasts of empires. ISTM that a lot of people, instead, have God as the beasts (or one of them).

    ....and this seems to be missed:

     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  9. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    Why was Paul Young brought up? Brian Zahnd is the author of this book.

    ETA: Oh....I see. Because the forward was written by Wm Paul Young.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,656
    United States
    Christian
    Single
  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    I realize there are these verses (and a few others) that can fit into the Eternal Torment belief. There's almost exactly as many that support Universal Restoration and Annihilation, too.

    With the first one? The mention of the "eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"? If He prepared that for the Devil and his angels.....why would His plan (God's plan) involve leaving [some of/most of] His creation of humans in it? Jesus didn't say He'd *leave them* there....correct? Couldn't Matthew 25:41 be very similar in meaning to the Parable of the Prodigal Son?

    Right now I take that passage to mean that evil will pass away with His love (eventually) winning out. His "fire" I believe is transforming....not obliterating the human, but purifying them. BTW....Daniel knew a bit about fires....didn't he? I'd guess that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had described their experience to him.

    Also....it's been a while since I've looked into this, but from my memory...the original word translated to "eternal" in 2 Thess. was "aionios". Aionios is a period of time (not always "eternal").
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    I don't think the basis of this book is views of eternal life....but, instead, *this* life. From what Clement quoted of the description of the book.....this is the overall premise:

    ....if fear was getting between God and Brian Zahnd....could that be "holy fear"?

    The "about this book" (quoted in Clement's OP) answers the question as to what the book is about. It states:

    Zahnd mentions in the book that Hebrews were conspicuous in having almost no afterlife theology. He wrote, "for the Hebrews, death was Sheol, the grave, the underworld, the abode of the dead." Zahnd also mentions that C.S. Lewis emphasizes the same point in his book Reflections on the Psalms.

    Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +1,690
    Baptist
    Married
    Scripture, both OT and NT, has been posted which appears to support the teaching of Universalism i.e. everyone will be saved no matter what. The argument often takes the form of God is love and a God of love would never torment any of His creation in fire forever. God's love does not end at the grave. God's grace and mercy does not end at the grave and so forth.
    .....Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
    .....This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. Where does God ever say that He would have pity, would spare, would have mercy?
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +570
    Non-Denom
    Private
    For an example of aionios as a finite period of time, from an Early Church Father called John Chrysostom:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    This page gives other examples of finite duration:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +570
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Romans 11:32.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    I'm wondering if there's a way to discuss whether God is love or God is wrath sans the discussion of afterlife?

    If Hebrews in the day of Jesus didn't have that mentality (being concerned with life after their death)....then wouldn't it place the biblical text more in context by using that framework (this life)?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +570
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Perhaps you are new to this topic. Those verses have been addressed here many times before.

    Those verses are all using the word aion (pl) or the adjective aionios, which has been deceptively mistranslated by Bible versions created by the Endless Hellfire club. The many more honest literal versions do not concur. The urls below could be considered an introduction to the topic.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

    Aeon - Wikipedia

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

    The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    Lam 3:31 is a nice companion verse to 1st Corinthians 13:8:

    "Love never fails"
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

    +2,562
    Anglican
    Married
    IF God is wrath....then a person would have trouble fitting this verse together with the belief that God is omnipotent:

    "The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".~2nd Peter 3:9
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +570
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Sure, the Bible says "God is love" (twice). Nowhere does it say He is wrath, though He is said to have wrath & hate certain individuals. Calvinists often bring up the latter point.

    There isn't much in the OT about life after death, though there is some. In the intertestamental Jewish literature likewise. It is generally considered that the Pharisees, unlike the Saducees, had a belief in the afterlife, & had an influence over the Jewish people.
     
Loading...