Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God

[ClementofA]

Lam 3:31 is a nice companion verse to 1st Corinthians 13:8:

"Love never fails"

Amen!

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!

 

[Christie insb]

Did Jonathan Edwards lie?

I read this sermon as a junior in high school and I remember the God who holds you over the fire, like a spider or some other loathsome insect, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked. I was feeling abhorred by my Christian family then so that sounded about right. But I have also heard that Edwards had a long line of really successful, happy kids and grandkids for many generations. I also heard that his delivery of the sermon was different than we would think. I should look into this book. Thanks for posting it.

 

[brinny]

I read this sermon as a junior in high school and I remember the God who holds you over the fire, like a spider or some other loathsome insect, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked. I was feeling abhorred by my Christian family then so that sounded about right. But I have also heard that Edwards had a long line of really successful, happy kids and grandkids for many generations. I also heard that his delivery of the sermon was different than we would think. I should look into this book. Thanks for posting it.

You should look into his book. His entire point has always been to realize that a holy God does not take sin lightly. That is why He did something as drastic as send His only begotten Son to shed His blood for us a cross, dying for us. it is meant for us to SEEK God's grace, knowing how vile and abhorrent and DEADLY sin is. He doesn't want us to be "asleep" and just "coast along" as we approach a nearing cliff, totally unaware of it.

God bless you. I pray that You will see the insights God intends in the book, and (as it was for me) that it is a "wake up call". It was for me. i SORELY needed it, and i'm thankful that there have been men of God not afraid to speak the truth. It's rare to hear it now.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It's easy to confess that you are a sinner...saved by grace, hopefully.

It is easy to say that God is Love...again, hopefully (I think we can be very certain.).

However, some people will have trouble with the concept of Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.

Even Christians have trouble ingesting and digesting some of the Strong Meat of the Word.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I realize there are these verses (and a few others) that can fit into the Eternal Torment belief. There's almost exactly as many that support Universal Restoration and Annihilation, too.

With the first one? The mention of the "eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels"? If He prepared that for the Devil and his angels.....why would His plan (God's plan) involve leaving [some of/most of] His creation of humans in it? Jesus didn't say He'd *leave them* there....correct? Couldn't Matthew 25:41 be very similar in meaning to the Parable of the Prodigal Son?

Right now I take that passage to mean that evil will pass away with His love (eventually) winning out. His "fire" I believe is transforming....not obliterating the human, but purifying them. BTW....Daniel knew a bit about fires....didn't he? I'd guess that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had described their experience to him.



Also....it's been a while since I've looked into this, but from my memory...the original word translated to "eternal" in 2 Thess. was "aionios". Aionios is a period of time (not always "eternal").

So, then you are saying, in the last paragraph that you don't believe in eternal life--but only a period of time? Because that same word is the one Jesus used pitting "eternal life" and "eternal destruction" side by side in Matt 25:46.

The confusion caused by shackian thinking leads to this stuff. I am sorry for all the confusion these guys cause and how many will end up in a place they don't believe exists, because their itchy ears led them to a man-created god. Very sad.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

"Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God: The Scandalous Truth of the Very Good News"




https://www.amazon.com/Sinners-Hands-Loving-God-Scandalous/dp/1601429517

More lies, like young's book. demented minds think alike.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It is said that we have boldness on the day of judgment because His love is made mature/perfect in us, this is not written about obedience, fear, or any other attribute that seems more important nowadays.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It says in John 3.16 '...should not perish but...'

Clearly it means that some do perish, and this is why there is the Gospel of God's great love for sinners in sending them His only begotten Son as the Saviour.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It says in John 3.16 '...should not perish but...'

Clearly it means that some do perish, and this is why there is the Gospel of God's great love for sinners in sending them His only begotten Son as the Saviour.

There's other passages that point in the other direction, the basis for understanding How God "kills the sinner" in the second death is based on how God is seen.
.
In Annihilationism, the vessel carrying the sin, is destroyed along with the sin.
.
In Eternal Torment, sin is given an eternal quality in that the lake of fire is not sufficient to remove sin completely.
.
In Ultimate Reconciliation, ages and ages pass separating sin from creation until the blank slate souls are returned to God.
.
And it is quite possible, God will do something we cannot imagine or think .. which is not uncommon.

 

[faroukfarouk]

There's other passages that point in the other direction, the basis for understanding How God "kills the sinner" in the second death is based on how God is seen.
.
In Annihilationism, the vessel carrying the sin, is destroyed along with the sin.
.
In Eternal Torment, sin is given an eternal quality in that the lake of fire is not sufficient to remove sin completely.
.
In Ultimate Reconciliation, ages and ages pass separating sin from creation until the blank slate souls are returned to God.
.
And it is quite possible, God will do something we cannot imagine or think .. which is not uncommon.

The Lord Jesus in the New Testament talks more about hell than about heaven. Presumably the idea is that we don't want to go there.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Lord Jesus in the New Testament talks more about hell than about heaven. Presumably the idea is that we don't want to go there.

I definitely get that impression also. However, 1 Timothy 4:10, indicates our motive for telling the good news is because it is so good. Fear and desperation sends the wrong message.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I definitely get that impression also. However, 1 Timothy 4:10, indicates our motive for telling the good news is because it is so good. Fear and desperation sends the wrong message.

We need a Saviour from the consequences of our sins. This why the Lord Jesus went to Cross. Hebrews tells us that for the believer that He was 'once offered to bear the sins of many' and that 'by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. We do need to be sanctified: 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.' (Revelation 21.8). You see, Jonathan Edwards was right after all; if what he said when he quoted God's Word is disliked, it is really a question of 'shoot the messenger'. This is why we urgently need the Saviour and John 3.16 tells us exactly how we may know Him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We need a Saviour from the consequences of our sins. This why the Lord Jesus went to Cross. Hebrews tells us that for the believer that He was 'once offered to bear the sins of many' and that 'by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. We do need to be sanctified: 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.' (Revelation 21.8). You see, Jonathan Edwards was right after all; if what he said when he quoted God's Word is disliked, it is really a question of 'shoot the messenger'. This is why we urgently need the Saviour and John 3.16 tells us exactly how we may know Him.

The message you have said is perfect for crucifying the flesh, there are many maturity stages in the new life Jesus has given us ... and being afraid is a natural reaction of the flesh to God because it knows it is going to die. However, if there more than lipservice being given to being born again, living the new life, and love being matured within us so we can have boldness on the day of judgment ... then room needs to be given to those God has called to this at the present time.

 

[ClementofA]

So, then you are saying, in the last paragraph that you don't believe in eternal life--but only a period of time? Because that same word is the one Jesus used pitting "eternal life" and "eternal destruction" side by side in Matt 25:46.

That's the same word "eternal" (aionios in the Greek) that is often used of finite duration in the Greek OT and in ancient usage. Likewise with the noun, aion. Jesus spoke of the "end of the aion". Something which ends is not eternal.

The contrast in Mt.25:46 can be understood of contrasting destinies in the aion (age, eon) to come, e.g. millennium, rather than final destiny. Jesus had already said earlier in Matthew that He shall save His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21). And in the context of discussing Gehenna He says:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

For examples of the finite duration of aion & aionios in the Bible:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

 

[ClementofA]

It says in John 3.16 '...should not perish but...'

Clearly it means that some do perish, and this is why there is the Gospel of God's great love for sinners in sending them His only begotten Son as the Saviour.

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

 

[faroukfarouk]

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)
16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Perish - John 3.16 - means not loss of being but loss of well being, in contrast to everlasting life.

 

[thesunisout]

A loving & holy God sent Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son to the cross. While it was His love that sent Jesus to the cross to die for us, it was His holiness that required His death.

 

[Oldmantook]

So, then you are saying, in the last paragraph that you don't believe in eternal life--but only a period of time? Because that same word is the one Jesus used pitting "eternal life" and "eternal destruction" side by side in Matt 25:46.

The confusion caused by shackian thinking leads to this stuff. I am sorry for all the confusion these guys cause and how many will end up in a place they don't believe exists, because their itchy ears led them to a man-created god. Very sad.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt 25:46
The word eternal which occurs twice in this verse is from the Greek word aiōnion. Aiōnion properly translated does not mean eternal or everlasting, time without end, etc. This adjective is derived from the noun aion which means age, from which we get our English word eon. An adjective can never take on a different meaning from its noun. Therefore aiōnion is more accurately translated as age-during as found in Young's Literal Translation: And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
If this translation of aiōnion as age-during is correct, what is Matt 25:46 referring to? Age-during refers to the millennial age of Jesus' rule on earth, the 1,000 year age which begins when he separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep enter into the millennial age on earth while the goats enter the lake of fire for the same amount of age-during time - 1,000 years. No mention is made of eternal punishment or eternal life - meaning without end in this verse.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

There's other passages that point in the other direction, the basis for understanding How God "kills the sinner" in the second death is based on how God is seen.
.
In Annihilationism, the vessel carrying the sin, is destroyed along with the sin.
.
In Eternal Torment, sin is given an eternal quality in that the lake of fire is not sufficient to remove sin completely.
.
In Ultimate Reconciliation, ages and ages pass separating sin from creation until the blank slate souls are returned to God.
.
And it is quite possible, God will do something we cannot imagine or think .. which is not uncommon.

I can see an argument for many annihilated, though I don't see how anyone can get around some in eternal torment. And, if some, then the question is what makes those some (like the ones who got the mark of the beast) eternally different that they can go through eternal torment while others don't--if non-believers are all the same substance.

The last two are outside of Scripture. God seems really concerned about being called a liar, so I can't imagine that Jesus--who is and who was and who is to come--would talk about gehenna and hades, as if they were real, and then it not be real. If dead is dead, then there is no real cost to those who just live for this world. They just die and that is what they expected anyway, because they rejected the idea of a sovereign God other than themselves.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Our body is a container (the flesh profiteth nothing), vessel, for the spirit. The revealing/reconciliation/restoration taking place is within us...an inward truth...though we (at first) perceive it with our five senses until the spirit is awakened within...God consciousness. All are born with the carnal nature (spiritual blindness/separation from God) because of what happened in the garden. God has a plan He purposed in Himself from the beginning.

Things aren't always as we 'perceive'...and our perception of God changes throughout the process taking place within. For we perceive Him as something separate (not living within) from our being...until HE changes/transforms us from the inside out in the fires of purification.

All that happened to Israel in scripture is a picture of soul journey (our soul likened to the land or two women - bride or harlot)...each reflecting the duality within (Romans 7) that victory is promised to narrow down to ONE (John 17) truth that we are...a son of God (no gender implied)...

God does not operate within the confines of time and space as the carnal/natural man perceives.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

His coming is an internal/inner truth...the kingdom is within...the mystery being revealed, as Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory"...

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. Isaiah 48:10

The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts. Proverbs 17:3