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Should Secession be an option?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Creech, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

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    Just to be clear I voted for Obama but I do see why states want to secede. We are slowly losing all our rights and we are slowly being dragged into a fiscal hole we will never get out of.
     
  2. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

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    It was done to enlist the help of the slaves for the union cause and the war was over states rights more than slavery.
     
  3. contango

    contango ...and you shall live...

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    Where does the federal government get its money from? From corporations and people who in, oh yes, the states. If a state seceded its people and corporations wouldn't be paying that money to the federal government.

    Clearly some states would do better than others, financially speaking, if they were to secede.

    Not sure that comments like this are helpful. Seceding isn't necessarily an automatic route back to the dark ages, nor is it helpful to refer to "throwing a hissy fit" when enough people decide they have had enough of the federal government as it stands.
     
  4. MachZer0

    MachZer0 Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place

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    If all the states seceded, who would owe the national debt?
     
  5. contango

    contango ...and you shall live...

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    The share of the national debt is an interesting question - if a state were to secede it would make at least some sense for them to take a share of the national debt with them. Otherwise sooner or later there could be a situation where there was only one state left, calling itself the "United State of America" with a debt even less likely to ever be paid than it is at present.
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    You had slave states that fought for the Union - although it could be argued that they did so seeing what was coming down the pike and that it was inevitable that the South would lose - and thus, it was better to be on the winning side.
     
  7. cow451

    cow451 Shaken, Not Stirred Supporter

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    Just like a divorce, I suppose.
     
  8. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy The artist formerly known as miniverchivi Supporter

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    Of course, both side would have to compete for its favor by trying to buy nicer christmas presents than the other side ^_^
     
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    You had a lot of oppressed groups (or formerly oppressed people) fight for the Union due to feeling that what it had to offer was of greater value than the Confederacy..and the same happened for the American Revolution before when enslaved people fought in the Revolution against Britain. Some fought for issues of pragmatism.

    In example, other oppressed groups around during the development of the American Colonies were the Jews. They got persecuted heavily in Europe and came to the West Indies for safety/refuge. I was astounded to witness how unknown it is to most people that the Jews of the Caribbean played a pivotal role in destroying the Spanish Empire, assisting England to become wealthy and powerful, and helping the American colonies fight for their Independence....and of course, along with that come many other negative things which were opened up due to one power being supported long enough to establish itself/do things that were not right (as what occurred with slavery, imperialism of the British Empire/its rape of other countries, etc) all for the sake of survival. But ultimately, what the Jews did was quite brilliant actually..and necessary, seeing how the Jews were often stuck feeling as if they were marginalized and having to play all sides, from the times of the New World voyages/exploration to the American Revolution and others (as discussed here).



    For some good reads:

     
  10. cow451

    cow451 Shaken, Not Stirred Supporter

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    More likely a race to Bankruptcy Court.
     
  11. SnowCal

    SnowCal 50 Cent Party

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    One of the biggest differences between American and European politics is that Americans have a distinctly federal view. We view ourselves as Americans, not Greeks or Germans or Dutch who happen to live in the EU. And that creates a great irony in American politics. Democratic politics causes money to be taken from Democratic states and given to Republican ones. Republican politics opposes this transfer of wealth to Republican states. It's a fantastic paradox.

    But at the end of the day, when you hear suggestions from Americans that you probably need to bail out the PIIGS, it's because that's what we've been doing here for a long time and it's worked out well enough for us.

    Most of the states wanting to secede share a lot in common with the European periphery. Absent our well-developed federal system they would also share a lot of similar problems.
     
  12. Fenwick

    Fenwick Instagram: @drewzkie

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    Well said. Someone accurately (IMHO) stated earlier this year that Republicans tend to vote against their interests, I can see in some ways how that's true.

    Also, a little while back I saw an episode of the TV mini-series John Adams with Paul Giamatti playing the titular character. One interesting thing I noted was following the trial of the British soldiers who fired into the crowd at the Boston Massacre, it was recommended that Adams leave because he would be a hated man for defending the British. He told the person that "I'm not going anywhere, Massachusetts is my country". There was an interesting worldview in the Revolutionary era (and in a lot ways on through the Civil War) that the states were independent countries. The Articles of Confederation strengthened that notion and until the Constitution was ratified there really wasn't a sense of a unified nation.

    I'm glad this secession nonsense is small-time, and I hope it never gains traction because it would be back tracking at best.
     
  13. contango

    contango ...and you shall live...

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    That certainly does sound like an interesting paradox, although I tend to find it's easier to respect someone's convictions when they go against their own self-interest.

    Quite possibly so, although to suggest that secession would automatically herald a return to the dark ages sounds like little more than hysteric ranting. Even if it would result in a state becoming poorer it's not necessarily a bad thing if that's what the people want.

    Taking an extreme example, if enough Amish voters were present in one state it's entirely possible they would do very well even if the road network fell apart, public schools closed due to lack of funding and Medicaid dried up.
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    :thumbsup:
     
  15. DrkSdBls

    DrkSdBls Well-Known Member

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    Go watch the Movie thats in Theaters right now. It was easier Said then Done.

    Honestly, what "Rights" have you "Lost?" Or should I ask, what rights have you lost that you did not give away?

    As for the "Fiscal Hole" (is that the newest trendy name for it now?), isn't as Deep as the Doomsayers like to claim. It's far more Wide then it is Deep. But, If Congress and the House would actually do it's Job and get out of the Way, it's easy enough to set us back on the Way out. It's all about making the hard choices that those is power (mostly Republicans right now) don't want to make but this "hole" is no where near inescapable.
     
  16. DrkSdBls

    DrkSdBls Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, and how is that money collected? By Taxes.
    Who Collects those Taxes? The Government.

    If People aren't paying the Federal Government, they'll be paying the State Government (which would just become the new Federal Government.)

    I wouldn't be surprised that in 50 years after secession, that the People of Texas would be starting that whole Debate again about the "Oppressive" Texas Government's "Tax and Spend policy" (that it'll have to do in order to recover from Chaos left over from Seceding) and West Texas will start discussing seceding from East Texas.

    If people had enough of the Government "as it stands," our Founding Fathers provided a way in which we have the power the Change it. If that's not good enough for you, you can always leave. If fact, we'll show you the door.

    But when they start acting like little Children on the Playground who agreed to play the game by the same rules as everyone else yet, when they lost, they whine and scream that the game's too unfair, so they say they're "taking their ball and going home," That's what I call "throwing a Hissy-fit."

    There is true injustice going on in America right now but it's not occurring in the Federal Government.

    When it is State Governors are bypassing the American Diplomatic process;
    When it is State Governors are passing laws to Suppress the American Diplomatic process;
    When it is State Governors who are refusing to provide health care to their state in a attempt to play some Partisan game;
    When It is State Governors who are using their Positions for their own Financial Gains.

    That is the injustice that is Corrupting America yet you want to rail about the Federal Government? And that States are better off by themselves? Boy, have you got your Priorities a little backwards.

    Oh, and you're right. The Dark Ages wasn't the Correct analogy. I should of said the Wild West! Back before there was any Organized Government and any man could solve all his problems with a six shooter. Back when the Rich man held all the power and the Poor man was the Dirt beneath the rich man's Boot.

    Oh Joy..... I don't know about you but i just 'can't wait' for the Glory days of Deadwood to return.:sick:
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    :thumbsup:
     
  19. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Somebody should have told Lincoln that in 1861.
     
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    A good time to go see the film "Lincoln" ...or "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Killer"...
     
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