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Should Secession be an option?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Creech, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. TheGuide

    TheGuide Regular Member

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    Whoever is the real power behind this movement is just getting paid, plan and simple, because secession will never happen in reality. First, all major businesses would leave that state, thus fewer jobs. And any type of a safety net will not exist (people grandfathered in may continue to get social security, but others will not have that system). So there will be a progression in crime from people trying to survive in gun states. The balance of businesses will eventually fail when people no longer have money to purchases goods, and real estate will plummet since people will not be able to buy or sell houses. Many will be motivated to move back to the United States, but then they have to have passports and work visa. Even politicians spewing this dribble are not really serious.

    Like I said, this is about getting donations from sincere people who haven't thought pasts the fact that the President they don't like will only be in office four more years.
     
  2. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Nobody thought the Soviet Union would fall apart - until it happened. None of things you predict happened then.
     
  3. Caesars Ghost

    Caesars Ghost Guest

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    It's usually pursued by angst driven people and by those unfamiliar with the Constitution.
    Article III Section 2 that relates to Sovereign Immunity in two parts. On the level of immunity of Federal officials and the Federal government. The division of powers in that regard is described in the 11th amendment.
    So much for expecting others to do the work. *sigh* lol

    It's what Scalia based his remarks on in the prior linked letter. It is also what was implied when he said if anything was decided by the Civil War it was that secession was unlawful. Though the decision was rendered after the war in 74 U.S. 700 Texas v. White.

    And it has always been what is meant by the stanza in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag and the United States of America, in the reference "indivisible". (Not divisible; unable to be divided or separated.)

    Though many fail to comprehend what the pledge is or what it means or how it relates to the USC.
    Mores the pity.
    I blame public school education. And the desire by some to be contentious.

    Also, I would agree with you about exploitative secession groups preying on the gullible, the naive and the angst ridden.
    Especially given this second term of Obama now about to be reaffirmed in January. I imagine there will be a push like none before.

    Christian Exodus
    , is one of those type groups you mentioned. Their motto: Forsake the Empire, Seek the Kingdom.
    Their intent to move Christian Constitutionalists to South Carolina and begin a territory self-governed on Godly principles. Though they've been extant since 2003, so their impetus was clearly not contention regarding the Obama Administration.

    Those type groups that have a tax exempt status would be especially amusing given their platform. ^_^
     
  4. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    Like Thomas Jefferson?
    Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the eastern, and I feel myself as much identified with that country, in future time, as with this; and did I now foresee a separation at some future day, yet I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power. (source)
    Which says nothing about secession. The federal government, which includes the Supreme Court, have power over only that which the Constitution gives them. There's nothing in the Constitution prohibing secession. Therefore, according to the Tenth Amendment, that right remains with the states and with the people.

    Just because a judge says something doesn't make it constitutional, especially when they base it not on something in the Constitution, but an illegal war. The very nature of the Constitution is that of a voluntary union. Many of the states were cautious about joining the union to begin with. If the union was really some kind of forever binding slave system, they never would have joined.

    No he didn't. His argument came down to: 'the powerful industrialists slaughtered the poor agriculturalists, thus the former were in the right.'

    And again, who cares what the pledge says? It's basically a pledge of worship to the state. Is it any surprise that it wants to bind people to it? If you don't have the right to not be associated with someone (to secede), that's not patriotism, that's slavery.

    You keep brining up the pledge; why not the Declaration of Independence?:
    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, (source)
     
  5. TheGuide

    TheGuide Regular Member

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    Our structure is democratic. Like I said, it will never happen.
     
  6. Lilly Owl

    Lilly Owl Since when is God's adversary a curse word here?

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    This sounds personal.
    And like the rant of someone who refuses to admit they don't know as much as they think they do and resent someone who knows more.
    Give it a rest CG. You cant educate a stone.

    Secession whiners always remind me of some brat in the sandbox screaming they're going to take their toys and go, because other kids there don't play the way they want to.
    It's ridiculous. What a great example for other nations to watch our own cave from the inside. I wonder how hard the rad Islamists are laughing.
     
  7. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    How is this relevant?

    Do you think the US will last forever? Especially the way it's going now?
     
  8. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    The USA will last for as long as the people choose to believe in it.
     
  9. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    Thanks for the ad homeniem. Now do you have any thing of substance to add? Despite what statists say, the Supreme Court doesn't have the right to say whatever the hell it wants to about law. The Supreme Court has power only to decide things based on America's high law. That fact hasn't stopped them from going way beyond what James Madison intended and Scalia's argument of 'might makes right' is a perfect example.

    So were the Colonists being whiny brats when they wanted to leave Britain because of the illegal taxes and things like the Boston Massacre? The U.S. federal government today is far bigger and more tyrannical than King George could have ever dreamed of. I'd much rather have lived under his rule than in this country has been since WWI.

    Also, that sound you here is every dead libertarian spinning in their graves over someone with a Libertarian icon arguing against secession. Nothing's more anti-liberty than saying people are eternally bound to a government. It's slavery.
     
  10. Lilly Owl

    Lilly Owl Since when is God's adversary a curse word here?

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    :thumbsup:The ad homenim fallacy.

    I read the posts in this thread. When someone even posts information from a Judge on the bench of the supreme court who says what amounts to, you're wrong! You need to take a hint.
    Otherwise, ranting obstinate foolishness makes wrong look to be the least of it.
    You should really seek help for all that rage. :tantrum:
     
  11. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    I would say you are wrong on BOTH counts.
     
  12. psalms 91

    psalms 91 Legend

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    I think everyone needs to read the Constitution and see what it says. Yes, judges can be and are wrong all the time
     
  13. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    Yes, you committed it.

    I don't care what a judge says. Judges are just like any other politicians and politicians are wrong 99% of the time. If next year a Supreme Court judge says that the government can kill you for saying that you don't like the federal government, does that mean freedom of speech is unconstitutional? Do we just scrap the First Amendment because a black-robed tyrant doesn't like people disagreeing with him? Like I said before, its very telling when a Supreme Court justice can't even cite a place in America's high law to prove his point, instead using an illegal war--i.e., might makes right. But really, I don't know why I'm surpised when 'might makes right' is the moral code for most of the political class.

    I'm reminded of a line in The Ten Commandments movie: "Man should be ruled by law and not by the will of other men." If the Supreme Court really can just say whatever they want and that's supposed to morally bind us, then we live in an oligarchy.

    More ad hominem. But given your childish attitude and inability to make an argument beyond name calling, you're the one who seems to have rage issues.
     
  14. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    So what are the limits on secession? Can a city secede from a state? Can a home secede from its city?
     
  15. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    Yes.
     
  16. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    How would that work?
     
  17. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    I want the half of the room I sleep in to secede, but only that part.
     
  18. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    If you mean how would they go about seceding, I can't actually see it happening. The government(s) wouldn't let any of their tax-cattle leave peacefully (as history usually shows). But, if governments hypothetically respected individual rights, the person(s) seceding would simply no longer participate in the government (whether it be taxes, voting, etc.), nor receive any of its "benefits."
     
  19. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

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    And how would that work? How does one go about not receiving the benefits of living in an organised society?
     
  20. Nilloc

    Nilloc Senior Veteran

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    Government /=/ organized society. Government is a territorial monopoly, which forces its will on others whether they like it or not. The services that governments typically provide need not be done via monopoly, nor restricted to a certain geographical area.
     
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