Serious Question: Is Modalism a Damnable Heresy or just a Heresy ?

[Albion]

If Modalism can be an exception, doesn't it means that Arianism can be one?

As Modalism was described in the OP, yes. But that description ruled out Arianism.

 

[oldrunner]

The whole issue about the trinity is that there is no clear biblical teaching about it. A lot is based on assumption. As such, this info was not deemed important by the Lord to include in the bible. As such, it probably has no bearing on our salvation. Jesus himself is the focal point, not the trinity.

Besides, as soon as words like "technically" and "heresy" come into play, we start entering the realm of legalism and worldly teachings. I wouldn't want to get hung up on details and instead focus on Jesus and his teachings

I think it's a slippery slope we travel down when we start saying just because there is not a whole lot of detailed teaching on a doctrine, that it cannot be heresy. That what we teach is not important is just not true. (Titus 3:10-11)

Let one thing slip and then we have Jesus as only a man. If Jesus wasn't 100% God, and 100% man, He could not have redeemed us, and our security in our salvation in Him is suspect. In my way of thinking, if Jesus was only a "mode", then He was not a true man, but only God.

I think that is why this discussion was deemed important enough to hammer out by minds much better than mine- and probably yours, long ago. It all figures into the "foundation" that a new believer will come to understand as they grow in knowledge and understanding. (1st Cor 3) This foundation must be as right as possible.

To me, three modes are deceitful, because the plain understanding is there are three persons or beings, portrayed in baptism of Jesus. Jesus Himself makes the distinction of the Godhead in many examples-as I posted examples in John.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

For the record I am a staunch Trinitarian because I see it in the scriptures.

Modalism is indeed a very dangerous heresy. After all - if it is true - who could say that God hasn't "manifested" Himself dozens and even millions of time throughout history.

Perhaps as David Koresh, or perhaps in Shirley McClain and in all other men and women as well, or perhaps (dare I even say it) as Satan himself.

Heresy yes.

But "damnable" heresy - if not taken to dangerous extremes such as those? I don't think so.

No more so than it was for many for some time in the early church.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus was fully man and fully God.
Anyone who does not acknowledged Christ as come in the flesh is not of God. Christ here being the Son of God coequal with Him who was glorified with God before He came born as a man and also after He returned glorified with God.
John 17
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

God does not give HIS GLORY to anyone except Himself.
But we will be glorified together with Christ.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/we-will-be-glorified-for-the-glory-of-god

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

God is one God in three distinct persons
(Why Modalism is Unbiblical):

Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mask or takes on a title or name. It teaches that there is no difference between the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit. Which is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why is it unbiblical?

Well, the Bible clearly teaches that there are distinctions within the persons of the Godhead. Here are a couple of quick points why the Scriptures are against the idea of Modalism.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

Also, I imagine those who believe in Modalism like to quote 1 John 5:7 as proof text for their case, too.

However, they also have to look at what else John has written on this topic, too. For in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITHGod, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

Without the Person of Jesus, the Atonement is denied:

What Modalism is actually saying is that the separate person of Jesus Christ, the Son, is not real and never died on the cross because He does not exist. A separate Person does not exist. Only the Father (or Almighty God) exists and changes his face to turn into and look like the Son. This is a bold denial of God as a whole (since Jesus Christ is fully 100% God) and a denial of the work of the existing Second Person of God: the Son.

A human example would be that a Father agreed with his son that he would go out and pay an extremely expensive price for criminals to be free from their death sentences, and that his son would own them and they would be given to him; and he would show them compassion. After hearing about freedom from their judicial punishments of death because of the son’s payment, those criminals— instead of going with the son who bought them— believe the father is actually the one who bought them because he morphed into the mode of the son. Furthermore, the criminals claim that the son who actually bought them with his father’s urging does not even exist. They believe only the father exists and shifts into a different looking mode to become his own son, but is still the exact same person as there is not a son person and a father person, but only a father person who shifts modes. He just changed into the son. So the son who actually bought them with an extremely expensive price is denied as well as his hard work earning the payment for them to be free. This is a major insult to the son. But in reality the only way they could be free is if they understand that the son is actually a real person who exists and is not the father, and they follow him. Because since these criminals deny the son who bought them, and instead believe his father shape shifted into a son to become him, that real son that exists separately from his father will deny them in the presence of his father.

Modalism denies Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that if you deny Jesus Christ (being the Son of God, a separate Person from the Father, and separate from the Person of the Holy Spirit), He will deny you in the presence of God the Father. Jesus Christ Himself said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and that of the Father and the holy angels” (Luke 9:26). Jesus in Luke 12:9 also said, “…but whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.” So it is obvious that Modalism denies Christ despite the fact they try to claim they promote Jesus and follow Him. The Oneness “Jesus” is a “false Jesus” that does not exist and profanes, and blasphemies the true living, eternal, Son of God. It misplaces credit for propitiation onto the Father, when propitiation was strictly something the Son did. Romans 3:24 says that the redemption is in Christ Jesus, and in verse 25 it says, “God presented Him as the propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over sins previously committed.” It does not say that the Father was the propitiation. 1 John 2:2 explicitly states that Jesus Christ alone was the propitiation: “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.” Since the Trinity is true, Modalism is denying God by claiming the Person of the Son does not exist. 1 John 2:23 expresses it simply, “No one who denies the Son can have the Father…” All repentant sinners become Christians who receive salvation. Christians are saved because they call on the name of the Lord and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If someone repents to a false God that does not exist, one that denies the existence of the Person of the Son, they will not have salvation. Romans 10:9 says, “…if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”If a person claims this verse for a Modalistic Jesus, one that denies the Person of the Son, there is no power for salvation.

Modalism denies the Father’s ability to be a righteous judge:

Not only is Modalism an offense to the Person of the Son, but it offends the Person of the Father by ignoring His sacrificial giving of His one and only Son, the Son which He loves so much in relation within the Godhead; and it claims instead that He is the one who died and gave the propitiation for sins. Ignoring the extreme sacrifice the Father allowed to happen to His precious Son is an extreme insult to the love of the Father for sinners that He would allow His own Son (who was willing) to be punished in their place; and not only that, but that the Father is the one who gave out all of the crushing punishment to His own Son. Isaiah 54:6says, “The LORD has punished Him for the iniquity of us all.” Also, 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”Modalism denies God this glory and insults the Father. The Father remained pure and untouched by sin and is the righteous judge that gave out His wrath onto Christ. If Modalism is true it means that God existing in one person, being the Father would have became sinful and then killed himself. There would be no righteous judge untouched by sin able to pour out the wrath. It would be the Father becoming sin on His own and then punishing Himself. This idea cancels out a pure and holy Person who is able to remain innocent who can judge sin. In reality, since the Trinity is what is true, there is a righteous and clean judge untouched by sin that was able to pour out His wrath onto Jesus Christ (who was made sin willingly by the Father) and complete the ability for salvation to be completed. To deny the Father’s giving of His real eternally existing Son is blasphemy, and it cancels out the ability for salvation. Such a person as the “god father” of Modalism does not exist and it profanes the true Father’s work. Therefore, Modalism completely denies the true Father.

1 John 2:22 firmly states, “He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.”

Of course the most basic reason why Modalism cancels out salvation is that if the Trinity is true, it means that God is Three-As-One and anything other than a triune God does not exist. Worshiping a God that does not exist is idolatry. Modalism is a false religion and God commands that there should never be any other gods worshiped besides Him (Exodus 20:3). There is no forgiveness of sins if a person puts their trust into a false god. Just because the name of a false God uses the same titles and names as the true, triune God of Scripture does not mean it is the same God. Matthew 24:24 claims there will be false Christ’s coming, and 1 Corinthians 11:4 says that people can preach a different Jesus and a different spirit and Christians should not put up with it.

The modalistic god denies the Eternal Person of the Son, thus meaning they deny the true God and profane His atonement.

Article Source:
https://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-modalism-is-a-damnable-heresy/

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts of the Apostles 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7. This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.

1 John 5:7 says,

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.

#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).
This says that there is no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).

#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).
This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Then there is the correct view of the Trinity.

The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son and can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).

 

[A_Thinker]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

Yes ... perfect knowledge of the nature of God is not required for salvation ...

Luke 18:17
Truly I tell you, if anyone does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child, he will never enter it."

 

[A_Thinker]

Modalists have a created a "Jesus" to suit their needs, and that is an idol, and there is no salvation in idols.

In which way does that "suit their needs" ?

 

[sdowney717]

In which way does that "suit their needs" ?

The imagination of their heart is how people perceive and think about things, and if not enlightened by the Holy Spirit, it's going to be way off the mark from the truth.

Imagination in scripture has a negative meaning.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Deuteronomy 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:

Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jeremiah 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Luke 1:51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[A_Thinker]

The imagination of their heart is how people perceive and think about things, and if not enlightened by the Holy Spirit, it's going to be way off the mark from the truth.

Imagination in scripture has a negative meaning.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Deuteronomy 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:

Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jeremiah 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Luke 1:51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

So ... how perfect/complete do you believe is a christian's child's understanding of the nature of God ?

 

[Monk Brendan]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

The church officially repudiated modalism, aka Sabellianism, in the third century.

Sabellius, a priest of the Roman Church, was the first to teach this damnable heresy. He was deposed from the priesthood and condemned for teaching something nobody had ever heard of before.

If it was wrong in the third century, it's still wrong in the 21st.

 

[sdowney717]

So ... how perfect/complete do you believe is a christian's child's understanding of the nature of God ?

We are to mature in understanding of the scriptures.
We are body, soul (mind) and spirit.
Those born of God have been created as having a new alive spirit inside of them, one that is spiritually in fellowship with God, joined as one spirit with Him, regardless of the age or maturity level of the saved person. We need to align our minds with the Word of God. But our spirits born of God are already perfected spiritually and do not sin as apostle John says and Paul writes we were created according to the will of God in true righteousness and holiness, the inner man of the spirit.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Spiritually we do not need to know gnostically spiritual truths to be born of God.
Those who are born again, Jesus tells us to marvel not, it is not under your control, they are born according to the Spirit and not the will of the flesh. And God reveals the things of God from His Spirit to our spirits the deep things of God.

Ephesians 4
The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[oldrunner]

The church officially repudiated modalism, aka Sabellianism, in the third century.

Sabellius, a priest of the Roman Church, was the first to teach this damnable heresy. He was deposed from the priesthood and condemned for teaching something nobody had ever heard of before.

If it was wrong in the third century, it's still wrong in the 21st.

Dude! It pretty rare when a believer of Baptist leanings can agree with a Catholic brother, but here it is. The Creed works, IMO.

 

[redleghunter]

I mean technically a person could still believe in The Lord Jesus Christ As Savior and God and be saved as a Modalist right ?

It's always good to review the basics.

Brought to us by our Lutheran brethren.

EDIT: Oh forgot we should use a definition too:

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.​

 

[FireDragon76]

The whole point of Trinitarianism is that there are real relationships within God's being, that God doesn't need creation to be personal, and that the universe isn't simply an accidental manifestation of a divine principle, like it is in some theosophist accounts.

 

[redleghunter]

God is always all three at all times,,,how He manifests Himself is a different story.

But that story is told---Father, Son, Holy Spirit....That's how we baptize too!

 

[redleghunter]

Therefore Christ is the Father as well as the Spirit as well as the Word. They're all one in the same while bearing individual testimony in heaven.

Some might mistake the above for Patripassionism:

Patripassionism is a theological error dealing with the Godhead which states that the Father became incarnate, was born, suffered, and died on the cross, hence, the Father's (patri) passion (suffer) on the cross.​

 

[redleghunter]

Suppose you have modalism plus the Incarnation. That would let you say that when Jesus is speaking it's a human speaking. So the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct from him.

That would be a variation of Arianism:

Arius taught that only God the Father was eternal and too pure and infinite to appear on the earth. Therefore, God produced Christ the Son out of nothing as the first and greatest creation. The Son is then the one who created the universe. Because the Son relationship of the Son to the Father is not one of nature, it is, therefore, adoptive. God adopted Christ as the Son. Though Christ was a creation and because of his great position and authority, he was to be worshiped and even looked upon as God. Some Arians even held that the Holy Spirit was the first and greatest creation of the Son.

At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.​

 

[Call me Nic]

Some might mistake the above for Patripassionism:

Patripassionism is a theological error dealing with the Godhead which states that the Father became incarnate, was born, suffered, and died on the cross, hence, the Father's (patri) passion (suffer) on the cross.​

Except the Bible calls Jesus the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6) and since Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30), it's not too far of a stretch to make that argument. You cannot have Jesus without having the Father, and you cannot have the Father without having Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross, it was the equivalent as having the Father die upon the cross. However, the Father bears record of Jesus through the works that Jesus did in the name of God (John 5:36), and Jesus bears record of the Father through the judgement and authority that has been given him (John 5:20). The Spirit was sent from the Son according to the will of the Father to reprove the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement, which bears record of the testimony of the Son (John 16:8-11). Just because they bear separate testimony of the same truth doesn't mean they are distinctly different, in that they have different wills, different spirits, different minds. They simply bear separate records as three, but are indeed one (1 John 5:7), with one (unified) testimony, one will, one mind toward creation. There is only one God with one salvation.