Separation of the Church from Government: Good or Bad?

[Realizer]

Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

 

[Strathos]

The first problem with a theocracy is that you can't guarantee that it will follow your religious views and not someone else's.

The second problem is that when nations are ruled by people who claim to speak for God, they historically use that to abuse their power. Same with dictatorships.

 

[dzheremi]

I think it's good, and 1,600 years of conflict with the Chalcedonians and 1,400 of conflict with the Muslims is more than enough evidence for me as to why it is good. That's not to say that I really have any problems with Church-State symphonia, either (such was the way things were in pre-Communist Ethiopia, and is in some sense still how they are in Armenia, though Armenia has spent so little time being independent in the past two millennia, I'm not entirely sure it's appropriate to characterize it that way, since so often the government in question was not run by Armenians, but by Greeks, Persians, Arabs, Ottoman Turks, etc.), but that the reality has often left a lot to be desired, and the idea of 'empire' that is so popular to western (Greco-Roman) churches like the Eastern Orthodox or the Roman Catholic looks pretty different when you're on the outs with the empire in question, as Oriental Orthodox people mostly have been.

Be we still pray for the king (ruler) of this land in every liturgy, no matter where we hold it.

 

[Paulos23]

I think it is good. When the founding fathers started writing the Constitution they remembered the religious wars and prosecution in Europe and didn't want that to happen here. They were also seeing preachers being locked up for not being of the same denomination in the states.

So there were a lot of good practical reasons that the founding fathers wanted the separation of religion from government. And while it might seem that we are taking it to the extremes now, but I think that is just because we never really sat down and looked at how to be a multi-religious nation.

 

[d taylor]

Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

Of course it should why should the church (even the visible one) be connected to government. Which is basically part of the kingdoms that satan possesses on the earth.

The only nation set aside from satan kingdoms is The nation of Israel and God deals with them.

 

[Realizer]

Of course it should why should the church (even the visible one) be connected to government. Which is basically part of the kingdoms that satan possesses on the earth.

The only nation set aside from satan kingdoms is The nation of Israel and God deals with them.

The biggest problem I have with Trump is that he wants America to be a CHRISTIAN country. I remember hearing him say this a couple years ago and it’s...bothered me since then. And people idolize him as a perfect Christian leader for this country, but I don’t agree if he’s being idolized, as we are not supposed to idolize man. If you saw the comments on my local news feed about him...whew. You’d think these followers thought he was God himself.

I believe if we are to have a decent country we need to think about what doesn’t impact us as Christians solely, but what helps everyone as a whole, regardless of demographics. I feel every piece of the diversity in this country is even more divided now than ever, and it really bothers me. I see Republicans demonizing Democrats and vice versa. It’s awful to watch.

 

[timothyu]

IMO many people automatically assume church and state means Christianity and gush over themselves at the possibility of a church run nation. Problem is they forget the disastrous thousand plus years of church domination not only working alongside kings and emperors but also eventually creating kings and emperors yet showing no diversion from the self serving ways of man which still oppressed others thus going against Christian principles they were originally supposed to represent.

They also forget that 'church' could mean a Muslim or Buddhist etc. run government if that were allowed. If a nation was built upon Judaeo-Christian values but referring to a generic God, that should be enough influence without demanding control.

Other religions knew what foundation they were getting when immigrating so if they wish to change what the nation was built upon they will have a struggle in changing the foundation and perhaps would be better off picking nations more fitting their idea that man made religious laws are more important than the peaceful ideals of a loving God that most religions were supposedly built upon. Christians would do well to remember that also.

 

[Strathos]

The biggest problem I have with Trump is that he wants America to be a CHRISTIAN country. I remember hearing him say this a couple years ago and it’s...bothered me since then. And people idolize him as a perfect Christian leader for this country, but I don’t agree if he’s being idolized, as we are not supposed to idolize man. If you saw the comments on my local news feed about him...whew. You’d think these followers thought he was God himself.

I believe if we are to have a decent country we need to think about what doesn’t impact us as Christians solely, but what helps everyone as a whole, regardless of demographics. I feel every piece of the diversity in this country is even more divided now than ever, and it really bothers me. I see Republicans demonizing Democrats and vice versa. It’s awful to watch.

I think he is just pandering to the religious right. He is on the record as making fun of Christian leaders and saying they are just manipulators of gullible people.

 

[timothyu]

I think he is just pandering to the religious right. He is on the record as making fun of Christian leaders and saying they are just manipulators of gullible people.

Hence his respect as that is what ALL politicians do. The only reason the left has turned against religion is that it wants to replace it as the saviour of the people knowing full well that the chances of change are about as likely as a return of the Messiah today, so the masses look to them for hope. The promise is there but it never seems to happen. Hope gets votes. Actions would actually help these people but then those who are being convinced they are oppressed won't look to their saviour any more if they were actually helped. Kinda like if Jesus returned the religious leaders would be obsolete. What is hilarious is that some are promising change that the people actually got decades ago. What does that say about the people being able to govern themselves. It's a con game where the well off are promised more wealth and the poor are promised salvation but of course it never comes for either. People have been manipulated to believe in leaders instead of themselves. Such is the way of man. Stupidity is easily manipulated.

 

[d taylor]

The biggest problem I have with Trump is that he wants America to be a CHRISTIAN country. I remember hearing him say this a couple years ago and it’s...bothered me since then. And people idolize him as a perfect Christian leader for this country, but I don’t agree if he’s being idolized, as we are not supposed to idolize man. If you saw the comments on my local news feed about him...whew. You’d think these followers thought he was God himself.

I believe if we are to have a decent country we need to think about what doesn’t impact us as Christians solely, but what helps everyone as a whole, regardless of demographics. I feel every piece of the diversity in this country is even more divided now than ever, and it really bothers me. I see Republicans demonizing Democrats and vice versa. It’s awful to watch.

I just see a moving away of christian influence in this county and that really has been all it is. Really how many of these politicians use christianity as a way to get votes. I would believe many do that and could care less about the christian voter they just want to be relected.

How you ever googled pagan statues in washington d.c.

 

[Strathos]

Hence his respect as that is what ALL politicians do.

You have a point.

 

[timothyu]

You have a point.

Garsh, thanks.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I've read that Islam is one of the faster growing religious faiths. And therein lies the problem of connecting religion and government. It's all well and good when your religion is the dominant culture, but when the other fella's religion becomes the dominant culture you've set yourself up for not liking it so much.

 

[timothyu]

I've read that Islam is one of the faster growing religious faiths. And therein lies the problem of connecting religion and government. It's all well and good when your religion is the dominant culture, but when the other fella's religion becomes the dominant culture you've set yourself up for not liking it so much.

Exactly why evangelical America better not push their luck for once they are the minority, what they once wanted for themselves will be used by others. Better all keep themselves as examples of their faith outside of the political arena and act on an individual basis rather than demand authority as an influencing body. That is why they have kept their strong lobby in DC by way of the "Family' under the radar for over 70 years.

 

[Tiburon]

I just see a moving away of christian influence in this county and that really has been all it is. Really how many of these politicians use christianity as a way to get votes. I would believe many do that and could care less about the christian voter they just want to be relected.

How you ever googled pagan statues in washington d.c.

Have I ever googled pagan statues in Washington d.c.? No.
Have you ever googled Reindeer in Ethiopia?

 

[timothyu]

Have you ever googled Reindeer in Ethiopia?

Not falling for that. Starving people would have eaten them all.

 

[d taylor]

Have I ever googled pagan statues in Washington d.c.? No.
Have you ever googled Reindeer in Ethiopia?

Was i asking you, no so i do not care what you have googled.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

It's a matter of individual rights and the proper role of government. Everyone has the inalienable right to govern their own mind and the ideas that they hold. Government is the institution that holds a legal monopoly on the use of force. Reason is man's means of thinking and judging and it can't work in the context of the threat of force or punishment for holding some ideas that might not be popular. Imagine if the government told us that 2+2 is 7 and if you say it's something else, we'll arrest you, take your property, and put you in jail. Could you do anything? Could you balance your checkbook? could you figure out how much change you should get from the baker? Could you build anything that required measurement? Imagine then that the government does the same thing but with a philosophy? Could you think.? Imagine they force you to become a Buddhist and you had to practice Christianity in dark places in the wee hours with the constant fear that someone would rat on you?

Government is a gun. Government is force. Force and reason are incompatible. Even though I despise religion as well as any other irrational notion like communism and fascism, I'd never, ever be in favor of laws against these ideas. The government has no right to tell people what to think. Its sole purpose should be the protection of individual rights including the freedom of religion.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christians have generally always separated the Church from secular government, except in the case of theocracies (Papal States, Teutonic Order in Prussia, Livonian Order and various others). This to me is neither especially good nor especially bad. Bad governance can occur under democracy as much as it can a theocracy so we should judge any regime on the outcomes. The majority of Christian principalities have not been theocracies and the separation of estates seems entirely appropriate in those circumstances.

Perhaps the OP means this new idea of completely segregating religious views and justifications for laws and policies from government. That is, the idea that any justification for a law or proposed law or institution cannot be founded upon a religious pretext. For the most part, I reject such a viewpoint, if only for the fact that it allows the non-religious to have far too much power and influence and why should Christians sacrifice their own power and influence to appease what some secular atheists want? If only Christians had more backbone, to actually defend publicly Christian institutions in the countries they live in, they might find themselves living in a more Christian country.

 

[Strathos]

Have I ever googled pagan statues in Washington d.c.? No.
Have you ever googled Reindeer in Ethiopia?

Are you suggesting that there are no statues of pagan gods in Washington D.C.? Because I'm pretty sure there are.

Just because my friend here is a flat earther doesn't mean he's wrong about everything.