Separation of the Church from Government: Good or Bad?

ViaCrucis

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Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

In the Lutheran tradition we have something referred to as the doctrine of the two kingdoms. Like in most things in Lutheranism it is part of the broader Law-Gospel dialectic we hold.

In this case the idea is that there are "two kingdoms", there's the lefthand kingdom, the civil sphere, the state, etc; and there's the righthand kingdom, the Church. It is the responsibility of the state and civil powers to execute justice, to provide order for society, to rule by the Law to curb against evil, serve justice, etc. The Church, on the other hand, lives and abides by the Gospel.

This idea in a lot of ways goes back much further, to St. Augustine's City of God, where he writes about the distinction between the city of man, and the city of God; these two cities are not the same and should never be confused. We can never confuse or conflate the kingdoms of this world, the powers of this world, with God's kingdom. God's kingdom is not of this world, and it never can be.

The father of the US Constitution, James Madison, apparently actually credits Luther's ideas on the two kingdoms as a major contributing factor in the growing idea of a separation between the secular and the ecclesiastical; an idea picked up by John Locke who was also one of the major influences on the nascent American republic.

The Church can never be a government, and a government can never be the Church. The Church has a spiritual and moral obligation to be the instrument of the Cross, not a people of the sword. Whenever this line is blurred, bad things happen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jayem

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Are you suggesting that there are no statues of pagan gods in Washington D.C.? Because I'm pretty sure there are.

Absolutely there are. On top of the Capitol dome is the Statue of Freedom. She's wearing a Greco-Roman robe and tunic. Her right hand rests on a sword, and she holds a laurel wreath in her left. She's wearing a feathered liberty cap on her head. Which was worn by freed Roman slaves. And the inscription on her pedestal isn't a Bible verse, or In God We Trust. It's our original Latin motto--E Pluribus Unum. From many, one.

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Not to mention that practically every courthouse in the country has a statue, or frieze, or some other depiction of Themis. The blindfolded Greek goddess of justice, who carries a sword in one hand and scales in the other.

220px-HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Council_Building_n_Themis_s.jpg
 
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Strathos

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Absolutely there are. On top of the Capitol dome is the Statue of Freedom. She's wearing a Greco-Roman robe and tunic. Her right hand rests on a sword, and she holds a laurel wreath in her left. She's wearing a feathered liberty cap on her head. Which was worn by freed Roman slaves. And the inscription on her pedestal isn't a Bible verse, or In God We Trust. It's our original Latin motto--E Pluribus Unum. From many, one.

View attachment 286665


Not to mention that practically every courthouse in the country has a statue, or frieze, or some other depiction of Themis. The blindfolded Greek goddess of justice, who carries a sword in one hand and scales in the other.

View attachment 286666

Could any of that be considered a government endorsement of religion? Or because very few people today worship those gods, does that mean it's okay? If Greek neopagans gained significant political influence in Washington D.C., couldn't they use these things to argue that the US government is based on, or at least endorses, the polytheistic Greek religion?
 
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stevenfrancis

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My understanding is that our prohibition is from the formation of a national church, like say The Church of England, which people would feel obliged to support. The clause then goes on to provide for religious liberty. The freedom of the citizens to worship God in whatever way they understand Him, (or not at all for that matter), without interference or muting by the Federal Government. It was not developed to infringe on the right of religious persons to contribute to the public dialog in a meaningful way, or even to preclude the employees or elected officials of the Federal Government from holding and voicing religious values and making value judgements based on the religious principles which are a part of their fundamental being. It's a protection FROM the Government. Not a literal separation of Government from all ideas and principles expressed in religion.
 
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Chriliman

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Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

From a Christian point of view, isn’t God in both anyway, at least to some degree?
 
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Arc F1

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The biggest problem I have with Trump is that he wants America to be a CHRISTIAN country. I remember hearing him say this a couple years ago and it’s...bothered me since then. And people idolize him as a perfect Christian leader for this country, but I don’t agree if he’s being idolized, as we are not supposed to idolize man. If you saw the comments on my local news feed about him...whew. You’d think these followers thought he was God himself.

I believe if we are to have a decent country we need to think about what doesn’t impact us as Christians solely, but what helps everyone as a whole, regardless of demographics. I feel every piece of the diversity in this country is even more divided now than ever, and it really bothers me. I see Republicans demonizing Democrats and vice versa. It’s awful to watch.

It's not that Christians worship Trump its that's its been so long since anyone even remotely recognized us. The nation is getting farther from Christ and up until now politicians have been following that trend.
 
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seeking.IAM

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... The nation is getting farther from Christ and up until now politicians have been following that trend.

"Up until now?" So you think current politicians have reversed the trend you identify? Please explain.
 
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Arc F1

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"Up until now?" So you think current politicians have reversed the trend you identify? Please explain.

Trump has motivated Christians to start speaking up. That's the first step to change. Government is slow to change, it takes more than one man so hopefully we will see more new faces in government this election. Trump could use the help.
 
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Desk trauma

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It's not that Christians worship Trump its that's its been so long since anyone even remotely recognized us.
Weapons grade denial would be needed to take that statement seriously.
 
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Desk trauma

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I always took you for a Trump supporter. I'm going to have to rethink that. Lol
I have no idea how you could have arrived at that wholly erroneous conclusion.
 
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DaveHTexas

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Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?

First things first. In the perspective of the United States of America and the constitution, the concept of the separation of church and state is NOT in the constitution but rather comes from the Federalist Papers written by Thomas Jefferson as letters to various congregations to assure them that the government will not interfere with their free excersize OF religion, and has nothing, and I repeat NOTHING to do with freedom FROM religion.

Secondly, I admit that while I believe that we should not only allow, but encourage ALL people of faith to be actively engaged in our governmental processes. But I also do not want to live in a theocracy. Typically when the church, temple, synagogue, mosque whatever rules political life the results almost universally are anything but Godly. They tend to use the name of religion to oppress the people and smear the name of God in unimaginable ways.

So long story short, I may be a citizen of the United States, but I am, and am very happy to be a subject of the King of Kings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Trump has motivated Christians to start speaking up. That's the first step to change. Government is slow to change, it takes more than one man so hopefully we will see more new faces in government this election. Trump could use the help.

I feel like I must have been living under a rock for the past 20 years, but I'm pretty sure I haven't been. This gaslighting is bizarre.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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seeking.IAM

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Trump has motivated Christians to start speaking up. That's the first step to change. Government is slow to change, it takes more than one man so hopefully we will see more new faces in government this election. Trump could use the help.

I think the last thing this country needs is more new faces like Trump.
 
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Arc F1

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I think the last thing this country needs is more new faces like Trump.

White people? Old white people with orange hair and racoon eyes? I really have no idea how to interpret your comment. Please clarify.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Trump has motivated Christians to start speaking up. That's the first step to change. Government is slow to change, it takes more than one man so hopefully we will see more new faces in government this election. Trump could use the help.
I think the last thing this country needs is more new faces like Trump.
White people? Old white people with orange hair and racoon eyes? I really have no idea how to interpret your comment. Please clarify.

It means I think the kind of new faces that would help Trump are not the kind of faces I think this country needs more of.
 
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Arc F1

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It means I think the kind of new faces that would help Trump are not the kind of faces I think this country needs more of.
I know I'm not much to look at. I get it. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Halbhh

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Maybe not necessarily an intention to debate but I like seeing what people think and maybe gain new perspectives.

I personally feel like because we have such a diverse nation making the US strictly a Christian country would create more tension between people. We have denominations that can get testy, saying their branch of belief is more correct than another, and I’ve personally encountered people who more...forcefully tell others that Muslim, Jewish, etc religions are wrong. Maybe if we weren’t so forceful, people would be more open to what Christianity has to offer.

Why do YOU think the church should or should not be separated from the government?
We want perfect government, but until Christ returns, it won't work well. For now, mixing church and state allows power abuse and hypocrisy, which harms both. Even today just having a president that claims to help Christianity harms Christianity.
 
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seeking.IAM

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It means I think the kind of new faces that would help Trump are not the kind of faces I think this country needs more of.
I know I'm not much to look at. I get it. :oldthumbsup:

Well, I think the face passes muster, but I've got to say if you wear your tie below your belt buckle and dare to wear a trucker's cap with a suit that's simply a fashion error and just plain wrong. America doesn't need anymore of that. :eek:
 
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timothyu

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Well, I think the face passes muster, but I've got to say if you wear your tie below your belt buckle and dare to wear a trucker's cap with a suit that's simply a fashion error and just plain wrong. America doesn't need anymore of that. :eek:
Apparently white protesters have become ashamed of being white after Labor Day.
 
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