School Prayer

[tulc]

A properly constructed prayer, such as the Lord's Prayer, can be a daily reminder of what we are striving for.

Then you should start your day off at home praying it with your kids. It's not actually the job of the schools to teach that to our kids. Nor would I want them too.

We're supposed to be in constant prayer (1 Thess 5:17),

...and if you've taught your kids that then it shouldn't matter what the school is doing, they should already be praying.

so why are you complaining?

uhmmm...I'm not the one who started a thread about praying in school, technically I think the one who's complaining would be you. You were the one complaining that schools weren't doing what you wanted them to be doing, while we were the ones explaining why it's not their job. :wave
tulc(has been at this for a long time and has little patience with people trying to have school teachers do their parenting for them)

 

[dreadnought]

uhmmm...could you point to where in my post I said that? Because I thought my post said:

and since instead of explaining why you think he was "promoting homosexuality" you instead said the above, which doesn't actually explain...well anything really.

Hey! You sound almost exactly like my mom and dad did all those years ago when I said I wanted to become a Christian!
tulc(finds that strangely comforting!)

You seem to be okay with allowing boys, who say they want to be girls, to shower with girls. I don't see much point in our continuing this discussion.

 

[tulc]

You seem to be okay with allowing boys, who say they want to be girls, to shower with girls.

uhmmm...we were talking about President Obama, not me, and while I do find the comparison pretty flattering I think it would be best if we actually stuck to the subject at hand. If you'd like to discuss my feelings about the subject perhaps you should start a thread about it and see if I respond?

I don't see much point in our continuing this discussion.

Technically we weren't discussing it in the first place so...there's that.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[FireDragon76]

As my pastor said on this issue recently to me, Lutherans in the past were not the biggest supporters of prayer in public schools because we saw it as a potential attempt to proselytize us. And its another reason that we, like Catholics, often had our own schools in the past, though since WWII this has become rarer.

 

[SilverBear]

I think praying is a good idea, not a bad one.

Forcing people to pray is a bad idea
Forcing people to listen to someone praying is a bad idea
Using schools as a means of indoctrination is a bad idea

 

[SilverBear]

Now you tell a falsehood. Barack promoted homosexuality. He is the one who threatened to withhold government funds from schools that wouldn't allow boys, who wanted to be girls, to shower with girls at school.

Actually you are the one presenting the false information.

in May 2016 the Departments of Justice and Education's civil rights divisions (not the president) issued a statement containing guidelines to schools about transgender students and Title IX. This was done because schools asked for it. Title IX prohibits discrimination against students by teachers, administrators school boards and school districts in any federally funded education program or activity. According to that guidance, no students would be asked to "prove" or otherwise document their gender identity, and adherence to Title IX is a condition of receiving Federal funds.


From that letter:
"Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX) and its implementing regulations prohibit sex discrimination in educational programs and activities operated by recipients of Federal financial assistance. This prohibition encompasses discrimination based on a student’s gender identity, including discrimination based on a student’s transgender status. ... As a condition of receiving Federal funds, a school agrees that it will not exclude, separate, deny benefits to, or otherwise treat differently on the basis of sex any person in its educational programs or activities unless expressly authorized to do so under Title IX or its implementing regulations.
The Departments treat a student’s gender identity as the student’s sex for purposes of Title IX and its implementing regulations. This means that a school must not treat a transgender student differently from the way it treats other students of the same gender identity."

In a nutshell the departments of Justice and Education said that if you want to receive federal funds you can't discriminate against students.

BTW transgender is not homosexuality, they are different things.

Can you explain exactly how not discriminating against transgender students promotes ANYTHING much less homosexuality.

Actually you need to explain just how one promotes homosexuality.

 

[DreadCthulhu]

let me direct you to something that you should have already known by now
First Amendment

 

[Rajni]

It's our responsibility to set a good example for others.

Agreed.

And, in the context of demonstrating good Christian
behavior, one way to do that is to listen to what Jesus
says about how to conduct prayer. Christians are not
supposed to be showboating their prayer life in public.


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[Archivist]

A properly constructed prayer, such as the Lord's Prayer, can be a daily reminder of what we are striving for. We're supposed to be in constant prayer (1 Thess 5:17), so why are you complaining?

So, lets say that we settle on requiring that teachers lead their students in the Lord's Prayer. Aside from the Constitutional issues that raises--it is a Christian prayer and the US is a secular nation--it doesn't settle an important question, that being which version of the Lord's Prayer do we use? Do we use the one that uses the word "trespasses" or do we use "debts" or "sins"? Do we stop the prayer with "but deliver us from evil" or do we say the doxology. If we say the doxology at the end do we say "forever" or "forever and ever"? You say this doesn't matter? Well, there are people out there who would be highly offended if their version of the Lord's Prayer wasn't the one being used.

 

[dreadnought]

Forcing people to pray is a bad idea
Forcing people to listen to someone praying is a bad idea
Using schools as a means of indoctrination is a bad idea

Our country is walking down the path of Sodom and Gomorrah. Having to listen to a short prayer each day isn't going to kill anyone.

 

[dreadnought]

Actually you are the one presenting the false information.

in May 2016 the Departments of Justice and Education's civil rights divisions (not the president) issued a statement containing guidelines to schools about transgender students and Title IX. This was done because schools asked for it. Title IX prohibits discrimination against students by teachers, administrators school boards and school districts in any federally funded education program or activity. According to that guidance, no students would be asked to "prove" or otherwise document their gender identity, and adherence to Title IX is a condition of receiving Federal funds.


From that letter:
"Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX) and its implementing regulations prohibit sex discrimination in educational programs and activities operated by recipients of Federal financial assistance. This prohibition encompasses discrimination based on a student’s gender identity, including discrimination based on a student’s transgender status. ... As a condition of receiving Federal funds, a school agrees that it will not exclude, separate, deny benefits to, or otherwise treat differently on the basis of sex any person in its educational programs or activities unless expressly authorized to do so under Title IX or its implementing regulations.
The Departments treat a student’s gender identity as the student’s sex for purposes of Title IX and its implementing regulations. This means that a school must not treat a transgender student differently from the way it treats other students of the same gender identity."

In a nutshell the departments of Justice and Education said that if you want to receive federal funds you can't discriminate against students.

BTW transgender is not homosexuality, they are different things.

Can you explain exactly how not discriminating against transgender students promotes ANYTHING much less homosexuality.

Actually you need to explain just how one promotes homosexuality.

Check it our for yourself. It's an old issue but I suspect most of these links are still good:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...70cabef46e0_story.html?utm_term=.a116f4253677

Feds issue guidance on transgender bathroom acess in schools - CNNPolitics

Transgender Bathrooms -- Title IX & the Justice Department’s Transgender Activism | National Review

Federal court blocks Obama’s transgender bathroom order

Judge in Texas blocks Obama transgender bathroom rules

Texas judge temporarily blocks Obama's transgender directive on school bathrooms

Solace and Fury as Schools React to Transgender Policy

Judge blocks Obama administration directive on transgender facilities use

 

[dreadnought]

Agreed.

And, in the context of demonstrating good Christian
behavior, one way to do that is to listen to what Jesus
says about how to conduct prayer. Christians are not
supposed to be showboating their prayer life in public.


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Our country is walking the path of Sodom and Gomorrah, and you accuse me of showboating because I suggest prayer in school might help?

 

[dreadnought]

So, lets say that we settle on requiring that teachers lead their students in the Lord's Prayer. Aside from the Constitutional issues that raises--it is a Christian prayer and the US is a secular nation--it doesn't settle an important question, that being which version of the Lord's Prayer do we use? Do we use the one that uses the word "trespasses" or do we use "debts" or "sins"? Do we stop the prayer with "but deliver us from evil" or do we say the doxology. If we say the doxology at the end do we say "forever" or "forever and ever"? You say this doesn't matter? Well, there are people out there who would be highly offended if their version of the Lord's Prayer wasn't the one being used.

Listening to a short prayer each morning isn't going to hurt anybody, and it might do a lot of good. Our country needs help.

 

[Archivist]

Listening to a short prayer each morning isn't going to hurt anybody, and it might do a lot of good. Our country needs help.

First, I'm sure you wouldn't object then to a Wiccan teacher offering a Wiccan prayer or a Muslim teacher having his students face Mecca. After all, it is just a short prayer.

Second, as I said before even if we could all agree on the Lord's Prayer there are multiple versions and we could not all agree on which version to use.

 

[Archivist]

School prayer being led by a teacher was gone by the time I got to school, but I remember one older teacher telling me that he was actually relieved when it was done away with. In the district where he taught the prayer was preceded by a Bible reading. The students took turns with the readings, and they were permitted to choose which verse to read. According to him many of the kids in the class would make fun of the Bible by simply coming forward and saying something like "Hey man, like 'Jesus wept.'" Is that really how we want to honor the Bible?

 

[dreadnought]

First, I'm sure you wouldn't object then to a Wiccan teacher offering a Wiccan prayer or a Muslim teacher having his students face Mecca. After all, it is just a short prayer.

Second, as I said before even if we could all agree on the Lord's Prayer there are multiple versions and we could not all agree on which version to use.

I'm okay with any prayer that speaks to God, and I'm not one who argues what name you give God or whether Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. If that is a problem, let Jews, Muslims, and Christians take turns delivering the prayer.

 

[dreadnought]

School prayer being led by a teacher was gone by the time I got to school, but I remember one older teacher telling me that he was actually relieved when it was done away with. In the district where he taught the prayer was preceded by a Bible reading. The students took turns with the readings, and they were permitted to choose which verse to read. According to him many of the kids in the class would make fun of the Bible by simply coming forward and saying something like "Hey man, like 'Jesus wept.'" Is that really how we want to honor the Bible?

We need to bring our country back to God. Do you have a plan?

 

[Archivist]

We need to bring our country back to God. Do you have a plan?

Yes, but prayer in public schools isn't the way. There is this little thing called the Constitution taht says something about freedom of religion.

 

[Archivist]

I'm okay with any prayer that speaks to God, and I'm not one who argues what name you give God or whether Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. If that is a problem, let Jews, Muslims, and Christians take turns delivering the prayer.

Not everyone would agree with you on that.

 

[dreadnought]

Yes, but prayer in public schools isn't the way. There is this little thing called the Constitution taht says something about freedom of religion.

What is your plan?