Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Loren T.]

After we are delivered, yes. The ability to make the choice has been given to us by God's Grace.

So, we have a choice after being saved, but not before? Funny, I have seen many people under conviction before they were saved and some never give in. So, where is this irresistible grace I keep hearing about? If we are enabled by God's grace to repent, but not forced, then obviously, there is a free choice to be made. In fact, since salvation is a gift,
Romans 6:23, a gift, by definition, can be refused or accepted. If it can't be refused, it's an obligation, not a gift.

 

[Loren T.]

Yes, that is our passion, but we are not forced to do so. We have been enabled to do so by the Holy Spirit, but He does not force us. He leads us. He enables us.

But he doesn't lead us to salvation, he drags us by our hair?

 

[TCassidy]

So, we have a choice after being saved, but not before?

Yes. Again, "free will" has nothing to do with the ability to make choices. People make choices every day. But before we are regenerated, our choice will always be "NO" when we hear the Gospel. It is only by God's Grace that we say "YES."

Funny, I have seen many people under conviction before they were saved and some never give in.

Exactly. They say "NO" to the Gospel Call.

So, where is this irresistible grace I keep hearing about?

You will have to ask someone who uses that term. I don't, and have not used it in this conversation.

If we are enabled by God's grace to repent, but not forced, then obviously, there is a free choice to be made.

Not a "free" choice as the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death, but certainly a choice. Unfortunately the unregenerate man will always choose "NO" when confronted by the Universal Gospel Call.

If it can't be refused, it's an obligation, not a gift.

It not only can be refused, it is always refused by the unregenerate man who considers God an enemy, and who cannot accept or receive the Glorious Gospel Call of Jesus Christ the Lord. That is why God takes our old, cold, dead, unbelieving heart of stone and gives us a a new, warm, living, believing heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[TCassidy]

But he doesn't lead us to salvation, he drags us by our hair?

He makes the Gospel Call so becoming we no longer want to reject it.

Have you ever heard the "Hornet Song?" It is a kids song that helps them to understand God's efficacious Grace.

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to Him,
And help His own people to win.

The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.

Chorus

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.

But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

Chorus

When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan's rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God's Command.

God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.

Chorus

When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God's Will to obey.

God can use any man, since He used Balaam's mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

Chorus

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Good. I am putting you on "ignore." Posting untruth after untruth after untruth is not debating. There is another word for that kind of conduct.

You can continue to lie about what I post. But, understand that is your willful choice, not the choice of The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or the God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Loren T.]

They would not compel you' to go 'gainst your will,
But they'd just make you willing to go.

Yep, that sums up Calvinism right there... Too bad for all the poor suckers who never get made willing and get sent to hell for something they were irresistibly caused to do.

 

[Loren T.]

Exactly. They say "NO" to the Gospel Call.

Huh? You just told me repeatedly that grace is always effecious. So how are they saying no to grace?

 

[Loren T.]

Unfortunately the unregenerate man will always choose "NO" when confronted by the Universal Gospel Call.

Why is it unfortunate? According to your Doctrine, it's all for God's glory. If God is effectively calling some and rejecting others, you should be cheering just as much for the ones that refuse and get sent to hell for Gods glory as the ones that accept, because they have no other choice but to accept.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not sure how you think this helps you, but it should be noted that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees here, and it should probably more accurately say "The kingdom of God is among you." Meaning in Jesus' work and miracles. If Jesus meant that the kingdom was within the Pharisees, but they refused to accept it, that would directly contradict your point.

“And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20–21) ASV

Within you =① pert. to a specific area inside someth., inside, within, within the limits of (Lucian, Dial.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 340). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[Loren T.]

“And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20–21) ASV

Within you =① pert. to a specific area inside someth., inside, within, within the limits of (Lucian, Dial.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 340). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Sure, in that interpretation. Others have "God is among you. " But, Ok, let's go with that. If the kingdom of God is within each of us, why isn't everyone saved?

 

[Dave L]

Sure, in that interpretation. Others have "God is among you. " But, Ok, let's go with that. If the kingdom of God is within each of us, why isn't everyone saved?

How can the kingdom be in unbelievers?

 

[TCassidy]

Why is it unfortunate?

Because the wages of sin is death.

According to your Doctrine, it's all for God's glory.

Where have I ever mentioned God's Glory in this thread? Why do you keep making this stuff up? I never said any such thing. The souls in hell grieve the heart of God, and they ought to grieve us also.

If God is effectively calling some and rejecting others, you should be cheering just as much for the ones that refuse and get sent to hell for Gods glory as the ones that accept, because they have no other choice but to accept.

What makes you think the souls in hell are there because God rejected them? They, because of their sin, rejected God. It is not God who condemns them. It is there sin that condemns them. "The wages of sin is death." Are you trying to blame God for their sin?

 

[TCassidy]

Huh? You just told me repeatedly that grace is always effecious. So how are they saying no to grace?

I don't understand the question. What has grace being efficacious have to do with sinners not receiving the things of the Spirit of God?

 

[TCassidy]

Yep, that sums up Calvinism right there.

Two points. #1. I am not a Calvinist. I am an Historic Particular Baptist. #2. If you think that sums up Calvinism you obviously don't understand what Calvinism actually is.

Too bad for all the poor suckers who never get made willing and get sent to hell for something they were irresistibly caused to do.

So you don't think it is sin that sends people to hell? And you are mad at God because of how you perceive His rule of His Creation?

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Doesn't God have the right to do as He pleases with His own Creation?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

Neither.

Scripture teaches that we are predestined in Christ.
Scripture teaches that God desires that all be saved.

The universal will of God that all be saved does not mean that I am saved by my own strength and power of will.

Neither does God's predestination and election mean that God passes over, rejects, or has chosen some for damnation.

Predestination is not about God picking and choosing who will be saved, but rather God's gracious and active work to save us in Jesus Christ, by His grace alone, His working alone, on Christ's account alone--through the gift of faith He Himself gives us apart from ourselves.

God's universal will that all be saved is true, not imaginary. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, for everyone, and there is universal pardon and forgiveness here. Even as by one man's disobedience all sin and have fallen short, so by Christ's righteous obedience all have been justified.

And since all have been objectively justified, all are included in the call of the Gospel, so that through the Gospel the Holy Spirit works to create faith and bring home to us all the gifts and promises which are in Christ.

Lutherans confess: "For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." (Large Catechism, Section II, Article III.38)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Loren T.]

How can the kingdom be in unbelievers?

You tell me. He was talking to the Pharisees. According to your interpretation he said the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Loren T.]

I don't understand the question. What has grace being efficacious have to do with sinners not receiving the things of the Spirit of God?

Let me put it another way. Why is God calling people he does not intend to save? You say they reject his calling... And yet you tell me his grace is always effective. Which is it?

 

[TCassidy]

Why is God calling people he does not intend to save?

He's not.

You say they reject his calling... And yet you tell me his grace is always effective.

Well, yes and no. He does not call them with an effectual calling. The Gospel call is universal. The "Good News" is for all. The Gospel Call is not Grace. It is the announcement, the heralding, of the Good News that Christ died on the cross for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again, according to the scriptures.

Which is it?

There is no dichotomy here unless you conflate the Gospel Call with the effectual calling. The Gospel Call is universal, it is to go to everyone. "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every person." The effectual calling is to God's elect, elect according to the good pleasure of His will.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Loren T.]

Two points. #1. I am not a Calvinist. I am an Historic Particular Baptist. #2. If you think that sums up Calvinism you obviously don't understand what Calvinism actually is.

With a name like that the jokes just write themselves. Aren't all Baptist particular?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain the difference, between a historical particular Baptists and a Calvinist?

 

[Loren T.]

Well, yes and no. He does not call them with an effectual calling. The Gospel call is universal. The "Good News" is for all. The Gospel Call is not Grace. It is the announcement, the heralding, of the Good News that Christ died on the cross for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again, according to the scriptures.

Which is why I say you're out of touch with reality. I'm talking about people who are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit... Not ones who have merely heard the gospel. And yet they still reject it. So, either grace is not always effectual, or God is just playing games with them.