Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Bobber]

How can we who are nothing but sin stop being sin unless an external source of righteousness provides an alternative for our thoughts and actions?

First we have a sense of right and wrong based upon our created conscience. And it seems you're one of those type of Calvinists that I try to tell other Calvinists that ones like you exist which say everything about the unsaved person is sin. They've tried to tell me that Calvinistic Total Depravity doesn't mean you're as bad as you could be. It seems you do. You seem to believe the unsaved are absolutely nothing but sin, no possibility of any good thought whatsoever.

 

[Dave L]

First we have a sense of right and wrong based upon our created conscience. And it seems you're one of those type of Calvinists that I try to tell other Calvinists that ones like you exist which say everything about the unsaved person is sin. They've tried to tell me that Calvinistic Total Depravity doesn't mean you're as bad as you could be. It seems you do. You seem to believe the unsaved are absolutely nothing but sin, no possibility of any good thought whatsoever.

How can sinners repent when they consist only of sinful flesh?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Please identify the fleshly attribute that would choose Christ.

 

[Loren T.]

The difference is that the unsaved man has only the Old nature, and the saved man has both the Old and New nature.

The old nature is only able to sin. The new nature is only able to not sin. The two together, in the saved man, results in both.

"Free will" as nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day. "Free will" deals with the condition of the person.

You just told me we deliberately sign away our rights and become a slave of Christ. You need to be consistent with your theology. If it is correct, we don't deliberately follow Christ, it happens without our decision. Otherwise, people are going to think you believe we have that cursed free will.
You can't say in one breath that we always act only according to our nature and in the next say we make choices. If we are a slave to our two natures in a literal sense, then obviously, it is never us making choices, it's whatever nature is controlling us at the time. This is what I mean by Calvinists being inconsistent. If you're going to subscribe to an illogical system, quit waffling and go all in. The only consistent calvinists are the hyper ones who will just flat out say that everything is God's determination and that God authors sin and we are just along for the ride. Otherwise, you believe in free will just as much as anyone, you just refuse to acknowledge that, so you give it other names.

 

[Bobber]

How can sinners repent when they consist only of sinful flesh?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Please identify the fleshly attribute that would choose Christ.

Two ways to respond to this and I'll maybe get to the second one later. But you tell me how can someone who is a new creation who manifests all the opposite of what you've outlined above at times yield to say some of those sins you've listed above. Why aren't they perfect if they're not in the flesh.

 

[Loren T.]

How can sinners repent when they consist only of sinful flesh?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Please identify the fleshly attribute that would choose Christ.

We don't claim that our flesh makes that choice. We are awakened by the Spirit to our need of God, and then have the capacity to choose to trust Christ or reject the Spirit's calling.

 

[Bobber]

You just told me we deliberately sign away our rights and become a slave of Christ. You need to be consistent with your theology. If it is correct, we don't deliberately follow Christ, it happens without our decision. Otherwise, people are going to think you believe we have that cursed free will.
You can't say in one breath that we always act only according to our nature and in the next say we make choices. If we are a slave to our two natures in a literal sense, then obviously, it is never us making choices, it's whatever nature is controlling us at the time. This is what I mean by Calvinists being inconsistent. If you're going to subscribe to an illogical system, quit waffling and go all in. The only consistent calvinists are the hyper ones who will just flat out say that everything is God's determination and that God authors sin and we are just along for the ride. Otherwise, you believe in free will just as much as anyone, you just refuse to acknowledge that, so you give it other names.

Exactly. That's one thing that can be said about Calvinistic theology is that it's never consistent. They want to claim irresistible grace caused their conversion but that would take God changing their thoughts to what he considers desirable. But if God was responsible for the total thought change to repent, repent of what? Not sin? Oh yes God was responsible for that and yet Christians at times still embrace the temptation to sin.

Oh they have free choices to do that they say so if God was responsible for locking into a person repentance thoughts, where they had no choice to do other....why didn't he lock in them about obedience thoughts meaning why would a Christian still be able to sin? Is it that Calvinists actually think God delights in sin in some way? God forbid for we know he doesn't. All in all Calvinistic theology reminds me of a amusement park ride, called the Scrambler. It pulls it's riders one direction then swings them another and then another until one is left with their head in a spin.

 

[Dave L]

We don't claim that our flesh makes that choice. We are awakened by the Spirit to our need of God, and then have the capacity to choose to trust Christ or reject the Spirit's calling.

This is only in the New Birth where faith is a fruit thereof.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)

 

[Dave L]

Two ways to respond to this and I'll maybe get to the second one later. But you tell me how can someone who is a new creation who manifests all the opposite of what you've outlined above at times yield to say some of those sins you've listed above. Why aren't they perfect if they're not in the flesh.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[TCassidy]

You just told me we deliberately sign away our rights and become a slave of Christ.

No, I didn't. I never said any such thing.

You need to be consistent with your theology.

You need to be consistent with your quoting me, like saying what I actually said instead of something you made up.

If it is correct, we don't deliberately follow Christ, it happens without our decision.

Nonsense! When Christ delivers us from the bondage to the law of sin and death, He enables (not forces, enables) us to be a δυλοσ to Him. But that enables just allows us to do so, it does not force us.

Otherwise, people are going to think you believe we have that cursed free will.

I have already demonstrated from the scriptures that the will of the lost man is in bondage to the law of sin and death and the will of the saved man (the spiritual man) is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

 

[Loren T.]

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot

"On “the kingdom of God,” which is of frequent occurrence in the earlier Gospels, but in St. John is found only here and in John 3:5, comp. Note on Matthew 3:2. To “see” the kingdom is, in New Testament usage, equivalent to “enter into the kingdom,” ...


He's saying, in essence, that no one can be part of God's kingdom without being born again. It's not a statement about how one begins to trust in God.

 

[Loren T.]

The passion of Christianity comes from deliberately signing away our own rights and becoming a bondservant of Jesus Christ.

Ok then....????

 

[Dave L]

"On “the kingdom of God,” which is of frequent occurrence in the earlier Gospels, but in St. John is found only here and in John 3:5, comp. Note on Matthew 3:2. To “see” the kingdom is, in New Testament usage, equivalent to “enter into the kingdom,” ...


He's saying, in essence, that no one can be part of God's kingdom without being born again. It's not a statement about how one begins to trust in God.

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)

 

[Loren T.]

Nonsense! When Christ delivers us from the bondage to the law of sin and death, He enables (not forces, enables) us to be a δυλοσ to Him. But that enables just allows us to do so, it does not force us.

Then we agree, we must use our free will to make a choice for or against.

 

[TCassidy]

Scripture for that from John? I mean an actual scripture which says those words that the old man still exists.

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin.

Ephesians 4:22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man, that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit;

Collosians 3:9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings,

1 Timothy 5:9 Let no one be enrolled as a widow under sixty years old, having been the wife of one man,

John makes it very clear in 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And then he says in 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So, which is it? Do we sin or are we sinlessley perfect?

Our New Man is sinless and our Old Man sins, just as John says.

 

[TCassidy]

Then we agree, we must use our free will to make a choice for or against.

After we are delivered, yes. The ability to make the choice has been given to us by God's Grace.

 

[TCassidy]

So, in your theology, Jesus doesn't have a problem with the saved man willfully committing adultery, because that saved man just can't stop his flesh from sinning.

Please. You can't just make this stuff up as you go alone. I never said any such thing. Shame on you!

And, it is okay for that man, pastor or lay person, to keep on living in that adulterous relationship, because he just can't help it????

Again a gross untruth. I never said any such thing.

Why exactly were we given the Holy Spirit, in your theology, if the Holy Spirit is impotent at stopping our sinning "old nature" from doing what we would have done without His help?

The Holy Spirit is not impotent and I never said any such thing. But neither does He force Himself on us. He LEADS us. He does not DRIVE us.

So, in one post, you say that God's grace is efficacious and in another post you say that God is impotent to even stop those He has chosen from the most basic human failure that is a result of Adam's disobedience handed down?

Again, a gross untruth. I have never said nor hinted that God is impotent. Of the two of us I am the one who believes God is Absolutely Sovereign, including being Sovereign in Salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

Ok then....????

Yes, that is our passion, but we are not forced to do so. We have been enabled to do so by the Holy Spirit, but He does not force us. He leads us. He enables us.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Please. You can't just make this stuff up as you go alone. I never said any such thing. Shame on you!

Again a gross untruth. I never said any such thing.

The Holy Spirit is not impotent and I never said any such thing. But neither does He force Himself on us. He LEADS us. He does not DRIVE us.

Again, a gross untruth. I have never said nor hinted that God is impotent. Of the two of us I am the one who believes God is Absolutely Sovereign, including being Sovereign in Salvation.

I presented what you wrote to you. And,

I presented an Absolute Sovereign who is a Just Judge. You presented an Absolute Sovereign who willfully creates friends, neighbors, and family members of yours to punish, just because He can. They never truly had a chance to reject your God, they were just pre-determined, by their very core make-up, reject Him. My God is too powerful to do that. He doesn't need us at all; but we are His creation. He chose to allow those who really want Him to have Him! That's actually a higher level of Absolute Sovereign--One who is so powerful, He doesn't have to control people!

I won't keep debating with you.

 

[TCassidy]

I won't keep debating with you.

Good. I am putting you on "ignore." Posting untruth after untruth after untruth is not debating. There is another word for that kind of conduct.

 

[Loren T.]

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)

I'm not sure how you think this helps you, but it should be noted that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees here, and it should probably more accurately say "The kingdom of God is among you." Meaning in Jesus' work and miracles. If Jesus meant that the kingdom was within the Pharisees, but they refused to accept it, that would directly contradict your point.