Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Loren T.]

What is more authoritative, your perception of reality or the Inspired, Inerrant word of God?

You assume your perception of the Word's meaning is the correct one.
You obviously take the slavery metaphor to lengths Paul never intended.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Read my post 258, above.

Yes I’m aware of what the scriptures say but can you name someone who doesn’t sin?

 

[TCassidy]

Yes I’m aware of what the scriptures say but can you name someone who doesn’t sin?

I have never made such a claim and neither does the bible. John makes it clear, "If we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not in us."

Read 258 again. All of it. Especially the last clause, "but the Old man is still able to sin, and does."

 

[TCassidy]

You assume your perception of the Word's meaning is the correct one.

If you mean I believe it says what it means and means what it says, you are correct.

You obviously take the slavery metaphor to lengths Paul never intended.

Paul took it very seriously. He referred to himself as a δοῦλος, a slave.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant (δοῦλος - slave) of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.

The passion of Christianity comes from deliberately signing away our own rights and becoming a bondservant of Jesus Christ.

 

[Loren T.]

If you mean I believe it says what it means and means what it says, you are correct.

Paul took it very seriously. He referred to himself as a δοῦλος, a slave.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant (δοῦλος - slave) of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.

The passion of Christianity comes from deliberately signing away our own rights and becoming a bondservant of Jesus Christ.

The passion of Christianity comes from deliberately signing away our own rights and becoming a bondservant of Jesus Christ.

And Paul said he still struggled with sin. Deliberately signing? Impossible, if grace is irresistible. The nice thing about Calvinists is how they constantly contradict themselves. Being a slave to sin doesn't mean we can't repent when convicted, and being slaves to Christ doesn't mean we can't sin. We still make free choices.

 

[Bobber]

1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You're quoting from 1 Cor 2:14 but you should go to 1 Cor 3:1-3 to REALLY get the context of what he's talking about. It's only 3 verses away from your quote.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.I have fed you with milk, and not with solid food: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
1 Cor 3:1-3

Here we send carnal Christians Paul COULD NOT speak to them the "deep things" of God for the more spiritually mature as found in 1 Cor 2: 10 He said in 1 Cor 3:1-3 that he couldn't give them meat of the word but only milk for that's all they could perceive...the basic things. When the preaching of the gospel goes forth men can perceive the basic things but not deep things. It takes spiritual growth to do that and to walk in such revelation. God does enlighten all men of basic things and they can choose to receive or reject.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

As long as men choose to stay with the carnal mind yes it is enmity against God.

 

[Bobber]

Being a slave to sin doesn't mean we can't repent when convicted, and being slaves to Christ doesn't mean we can't sin. We still make free choices.

And that's a place where Calvinists fall flat in trying to explain. They're bold in saying one being a slave to sin can't repent but if one is a slave to righteousness why not say it's absolutely impossible for a Christian to sin.

 

[TCassidy]

REALLY get the context of what he's talking about.

Yes, Paul made that clear.

The Natural man. Unsaved, at enmity with God.

The Carnal Christian. Saved but shallow. Like babies, only able to consume the milk of God's word.

The Spiritual Christian. Saved and able to consume the meat of God's word.

 

[TCassidy]

why not say it's absolutely impossible for a Christian to sin.

Why not? Because the Christian has both the old and the new nature, just as John says.

 

[TCassidy]

Impossible, if grace is irresistible.

Grace is efficacious. God never fails. His grace never fails. It always accomplishes exactly what He intended it to accomplish.

 

[TCassidy]

Being a slave to sin doesn't mean we can't repent when convicted, and being slaves to Christ doesn't mean we can't sin.

The difference is that the unsaved man has only the Old nature, and the saved man has both the Old and New nature.

The old nature is only able to sin. The new nature is only able to not sin. The two together, in the saved man, results in both.

We still make free choices.

"Free will" as nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day. "Free will" deals with the condition of the person.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Don't confuse it with the Charismatic Gifts the Apostles received at Pentecost.

So you boiled down all the Bible verses and replied back with a one line unbiblical quip that had nothing to do with the Bible verses quoted? You are clearly convinced of what you want to be convinced of. But all you have provided in my view is circular arguments that don't justify your position.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The difference is that the unsaved man has only the Old nature, and the saved man has both the Old and New nature.

The old nature is only able to sin. The new nature is only able to not sin. The two together, in the saved man, results in both.

"Free will" as nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day. "Free will" deals with the condition of the person.

So, in your theology, Jesus doesn't have a problem with the saved man willfully committing adultery, because that saved man just can't stop his flesh from sinning. And, it is okay for that man, pastor or lay person, to keep on living in that adulterous relationship, because he just can't help it????

Why exactly were we given the Holy Spirit, in your theology, if the Holy Spirit is impotent at stopping our sinning "old nature" from doing what we would have done without His help?

Grace is efficacious. God never fails. His grace never fails. It always accomplishes exactly what He intended it to accomplish.

So, in one post, you say that God's grace is efficacious and in another post you say that God is impotent to even stop those He has chosen from the most basic human failure that is a result of Adam's disobedience handed down? I thought the whole idea was the 2nd Adam was greater than the first?

Did you miss the major change between Peter before given the Holy Spirit and after? And Paul? I can't imagine those guys saying "my old nature wants me to have sex with my neighbor's wife. It isn't the new me, guys. But the old me just can't be overcome!" As Paul said, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:2)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Giving God all the glory in salvation is something that mighty idol of free will cannot do

You can choose to believe what you want to believe and that is just what you and others are doing--choosing. But what you and others claim to be Biblical just isn't Biblical Truth, it is your perception.

I don't worship free will; I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob--the God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God wants willing worshippers. He allowed free will for a reason.

Can free will become an idol? Certainly. Whenever free will is used to make a choice contrary to God's will for my life.

And can we also consider the theology of total depravity an idol? Yes, especially when people who claim to be born again are saying they can't help themselves, their old nature has to have its way! And, thereby declaring the very God they claim is efficacious to be impotent.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Why do you see that verse as applying to individuals?
I see it as applying to Christ which is a many membered body.

Regarding Romans 8:29, I just see too much individual in that verse. It says "firstborn of many brethren" not "birthed Head of a many-membered body," though both are true. So much of Romans 8 wouldn't pertain if you collectivized it. "For if you live after the flesh, you will die; but if through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live" (Romans 8:13) is individual. "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16) while collective is certainly referring to the Spirit bearing witness to each individual. Each of us should have that same Witness speaking to us, if we are truly His. Throughout the chapter, He is talking in the collective about the individual, not in the collective about the body as members of the whole.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If my will is free, then I am not a sinner.
If I am a sinner and my will is free, then I will that I should no longer sin.
It just doesn't work.
The only thing that works accords with those Scriptures which assert that God chose to free my will from bondage to sin.
Ephesians 2:1-5,
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive..."

But how you translated it above is not what the verses you quoted say.

And your logic above is flawed.

If you are a sinner, and your will is free, that means using your free will, you have chosen to sin and you likely think you ways/actions/words/thoughts are correct--at least in a self-justification kind of way. So, why would you ever choose to stop sinning?

So, the idea that you are trained from day 1 to be self-centered and then suddenly one day--without God's help or any new realization that what you are doing is not in your best interests--decide you aren't going to do what has been instinctual, self-justifiable, and need-filling for many years--just isn't a rational argument.

Free will doesn't mean we can see all the options.

When I drank like a fish, a friend took me out drinking. Then, after I was way too drunk, asked me to drive. I said yes. After the accident that totaled his car, I chose to stop drinking. Why, because I had a new revelation that what I was doing was really not in my best interests, like I previously thought it was. So I chose to make a different choice.

Spiritually speaking: we are blinded by the God of this world (2 Cor 4:4) by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). We ALL (apart from Jesus) need God to open our eyes to the opportunity to choose Him. NOBODY will be able to say that they took those blinders off on their own. NOBODY will be able to say that they saved themselves from God's wrath or into the blissful place of heaven. Those are absolute impossibilities. We can make choices, but we can't do the work. God looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7) and He wants those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-4).

Once He opens our eyes, we get to make that choice. That doesn't belittle His Sovereignty or His Glory in any way. In fact, it makes it greater. It means those multitudes in heaven aren't on their knees worshipping Him simply because they were robots made for that purpose; but rather that they with the freedom to choose, chose Him who first chose us and was willing to die for us.

If God freed your will from the bondage to sin, why do you still sin? What if God freed your will to be able to choose Him without forcing Himself on you? Then verses like "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you will die; but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spriit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry 'Abba, Father.'" (Rom 8:12-15) And, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...." (Romans 8:1-2, 4) "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Gal 6:7-8) "As the Father has loved me so have I loved you: continue in my love. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (Jesus said in John 15:9-10) "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My father, which is in heaven." (Jesus said in Matthew 7:21)

Do you believe God made lucifer/satan prideful and then ultimately kicked satan out of heaven or did satan make that choice to become prideful? The angels that followed satan, did they choose that or did God mandate it? In short, did God create 1/3 of the angels with the expressed intent of throwing them in the lake of fire? Is that what you believe?

 

[Dave L]

So you boiled down all the Bible verses and replied back with a one line unbiblical quip that had nothing to do with the Bible verses quoted? You are clearly convinced of what you want to be convinced of. But all you have provided in my view is circular arguments that don't justify your position.

Faith of human origin is not biblical faith. It comes from the flesh and is sinful if we try to offer it up to God. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and is acceptable to God.

 

[Dave L]

This is absolutely forcing words into a mode which you think you have a right to do but most certainly don't. The human spirit IS NOT FLESH. The human spirit is not a nature.

The human spirit has come under bondage to a type of nature but as it comes into illumination it can make a choice to receive God's Spirit or stay in the darkness. It is not forced to, made to or being controlled by Calvinistic irresistible grace. And to say one is born again before one repents is ludicrous.

The Bible says the word of God, the gospel is the power of God which provides salvation. 1 Pt 1:23 talks about being born again and it says it comes about by the word of God itself!

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Pt 1:23

Mark 4 talks about the "Sower Sows The Word" Which means the farmer plants the seed OR the preacher preaches the word.

Calvinists put forth that God is somehow working on people without the word to get them born again but they're putting this as born again before they're even instructed to repent! .....They're calling the preaching of the word the thing to cause people to repent but have them born again before they actually do so! No justification for this way of thinking except to force words into modes to defend their beliefs.

The preaching of the gospel which is the hearing of the actual words of life produces the new birth, not some metaphysical non-word influence. I will say this that God probably does work behind the scene in many people's lives to prepare their hearts to maybe be more receptive to the word of God but that is not by any means being born again before repentance. Repentance leads to born again not born again to repentance!

How can we who are nothing but sin stop being sin unless an external source of righteousness provides an alternative for our thoughts and actions?

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.” (Jeremiah 13:23)

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have never made such a claim and neither does the bible. John makes it clear, "If we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not in us."

Read 258 again. All of it. Especially the last clause, "but the Old man is still able to sin, and does."

Yes I agree although a very few Christians actually claim that they don’t sin at all and if a person does commit a sin they are not born again according to 1 John 5:18. I truly believe the word of God and reading even the Greek I don’t see any way this can be translated to say anything different. Also every passage I’ve seen that says that everyone sins can be referring to past sins the way they’re worded. However in my heart I feel this can’t be right. I’ve never met a Christian in person who actually claims they don’t still sin. I think I’ll start a thread on this subject and get a wider perspective. Thanks for you reply. God bless.

 

[Bobber]

Why not? Because the Christian has both the old and the new nature, just as John says.

Scripture for that from John? I mean an actual scripture which says those words that the old man still exists.