Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Loren T.]

He's not.

Well, yes and no. He does not call them with an effectual calling. The Gospel call is universal. The "Good News" is for all. The Gospel Call is not Grace. It is the announcement, the heralding, of the Good News that Christ died on the cross for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again, according to the scriptures.

There is no dichotomy here unless you conflate the Gospel Call with the effectual calling. The Gospel Call is universal, it is to go to everyone. "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every person." The effectual calling is to God's elect, elect according to the good pleasure of His will.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

"The other is the corporate view. Corporate Election is the viewpoint that God chose, not individuals for salvation, but the corporatepeople of God – the Church, of whom Christ is the Corporate Head. The Father referred to His Son as “My Chosen” (Lu 9:35). He is the One whom God chose to pay the price for the sins of mankind. He is the One through whom God calls out of the world a people for Himself. Christ is the Elect One. He is the Head of the body, the Elect Church (Col 1:18), who came through the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Elect Church, is in the Elect Christ(Eph 1:4). Individually, we become a part of the Elect Church upon our faith in the Elect Christ."

"Calvinists place salvation and election into two separate categories. They will readily acknowledge that we must be in Christ to have salvation, but they do not view election as being in Christ. They view election as being outside of Christ, as something that draws them to Christ."

From the "Society of Evangelical Arminians", to give you an idea where Im coming from.
We believe in corporate election.

 

[TCassidy]

Aren't all Baptist particular?

Historically Baptists have been divided into Particular Baptists and General Baptists. The Particular Baptists believe in Particular Redemption and the General Baptists believe in General Redemption.

Particular Baptists believe that Christ's Atonement only applies to the Elect.

General Baptists believe that Christ's Atonement applies to all persons everywhere at all times without distinction.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain the difference, between a historical particular Baptists and a Calvinist?

Calvin, first of all, believed in the church ruling over the state in violation of Romans 13. He believed in infant baptism. He is not the foundation of my faith, and my faith predates John Calvin by about 1500 years.

The Particular Baptists authored the first Baptist Confession of Faith, the First London Baptist Confession, in 1644.

The General Baptists were theologically Arminian.

 

[Dave L]

You tell me. He was talking to the Pharisees. According to your interpretation he said the kingdom of God is within you.

Is God omnipresent? Must one be born again to perceive the Kingdom?

 

[Dave L]

How can the kingdom be in unbelievers?

Only the born again can see it even though it permeates eternity and the universe.

 

[TCassidy]

Which is why I say you're out of touch with reality.

Actually I'm not. I have been very much in touch with reality for well over 7 decades.

I'm talking about people who are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Okay.

Not ones who have merely heard the gospel.

Okay.

And yet they still reject it.

Yes, they do. They make a choice that is in keeping with their fallen nature.

So, either grace is not always effectual, or God is just playing games with them.

But the conviction of the Holy Spirit is not Grace. (And God does not play games.)

Grace is "unmerited favor." It is when God gives us something we don't deserve.

We see that Grace, that unmerited favor, first in the old testament.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Grace is when God takes our cold, dead, unbelieving heart of stone and replaces it with a warm, living, believing heart of flesh.

We don't deserve that. It is unmerited on our part. But God graciously gives us that which we do not deserve.

 

[Loren T.]

Of course it's unmerited. And God opening our eyes to our need for salvation is grace. But you have God playing games with people he never chooses for salvation. To say there's a general call and an effectual Call is nonsense. Why would God call people he never enables to believe? Again, according to your "particular" or limited atonement, a general call accomplishes nothing for those who are unable to respond. What kind of cruel deity dangles salvation in front of people while simultaneously making them unable to reach for it?
John 1:9
The true Light who enlightens every man was coming into the world.

 

[TCassidy]

But you have God playing games with people he never chooses for salvation.

No, I don't. And to suggest I believe God plays games with people, or that God plays games with people is both untrue and blasphemy.

We were having such a nice, friendly, Christian discussion. Why did you think you had to lie about me and blaspheme God?

To say there's a general call and an effectual Call is nonsense.

It is true. The Gospel is to be preached to everyone, but not everyone will be saved.

Why would God call people he never enables to believe?

He doesn't. I have already answered this. Gospel Preaching is not an effectual call. It is the proclamation of the Good News.

Again, according to your "particular" or limited atonement, a general call accomplishes nothing for those who are unable to respond.

There is no "general call." The Gospel is a universal heralding of the Good News. Not everybody who hears the Gospel gets saved.

What kind of cruel deity dangles salvation in front of people while simultaneously making them unable to reach for it?

No kind of cruel deity who I worship. My God is a loving, caring, Sovereign Lord. And He has not made them unable to reach for it. They don't reach for it because they don't want to reach for it.

They hate God. They consider Him their enemy. They can't accept Him for the Loving Father He is. The things of God are foolishness to them, they can't know or understand them, because of their sin.

If it were not for the unmerited favor of God working an act of Grace in us, none of us would be saved.

 

[Loren T.]

There is no "general call." The Gospel is a universal heralding of the Good News. Not everybody who hears the Gospel gets saved.

And the reason, according to limited atonement, it's because God does not give everyone the opportunity. Be honest, the only way that makes any sense is if God hates them as much as they hate him, if this is true, which of course it isn't. If I tell you I have a gift for everybody, and by everybody, I mean only Sue, Tom and Larry, I'm sure you would not take me very seriously. This is exactly the situation with limited atonement. God says he has a gift for everybody, but the truth is, it's only for pre Chosen Few.
It's pretty important for us to believe that Jesus died for us. But it should be even more important to believe that he died for the most sinful person we can think of. Limited atonement says, no, probably not.

 

[eleos1954]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

based? - maybe there's a better word.

Each of us choose ... God having foreknowledge knows what our choice will be.

Random? That don't even make logical sense to me ... much less spiritual. I mean is God the roulette wheel of humanity?

 

[TCassidy]

And the reason, according to limited atonement, it's because God does not give everyone the opportunity.

Here you just prove you have no idea what Limited Atonement means. The Atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers. When you say "given the opportunity" what do you mean? What opportunity? To accept the Atonement? Can't be. The Atonement is offered to the offended party. God did not offend us so He does not offer us the Atonement. We offended God by sinning so Christ offered to the Atonement to God on our behalf.

Be honest, the only way that makes any sense is if God hates them as much as they hate him, if this is true, which of course it isn't.

I am honest. And if you are going to continue in the vein then our discussion is over.

It makes perfect sense if you understand what the Atonement actually is. It is the offering offered to the offended party to propitiate the wrath of the offended one.

And God does hate sinners. Psalm 5:5 "The arrogant shall not stand in your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity.

But God, unlike us, is capable of perfect hate and perfect love at the same time.

Why do you accuse God of hating people? It is not His fault we are sinners.

Do you think God is hateful because He allows sinners to go to hell?

 

[Loren T.]

The Atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers.

According to wikopedia,. The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world,[1] it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation. According to Limited Atonement, Christ died for the sins of the elect alone, and no atonement was provided for the reprobate.

If This is a valid definition, then it is impossible to claim with a reprobate is ever offered salvation.

 

[Loren T.]

Why do you accuse God of hating people? It is not His fault we are sinners.

I don't. In my theology God loves everyone.
But under Calvinism or whatever you want to call it, it certainly is God's fault that most are sinners. That is the only option available to them.

 

[TCassidy]

In my theology God loves everyone.

Mine too.

But under Calvinism or whatever you want to call it, it certainly is God's fault that most are sinners.

Why do you keep doing this. It is an out and out falsehood. Shame on you.

 

[TCassidy]

According to wikopedia

Now I see the problem. You are getting your doctrine from Wikipedia. Try the bible. It works much better that way.

When a student of mine wrote a paper, thesis, or dissertation, he was not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. It is wrong as often as it is right. Cite Wikipedia = FAIL!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Chris V

['The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ' 2 Peter 3:9

Seems like our personal choices / beliefs always have had something to do with it and that He'd prefer us to choose Him. If He is 'not willing that any should perish' how can some be predestined to perish?]

This passage is often misused. Every person spoken of in this passage is going to be saved...every one, not one will be lost.
Notice it says.....TO USWARD......
Peter is writing to elect saints who are already saved, and explaing that God is waiting for the others to be born and be savingly drawn to Jesus.
That is the language of God's longsuffering resulting in salvation...

look;
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
8 But, beloved

11 what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

fat wee robin,
[I think it is possible that God does not know ALL the choices we will make ,but He knows that we are in closed system from which we cannot escape .]

This is not possible. You cannot have an all knowing God...who does not know????

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

And Paul said he still struggled with sin. Deliberately signing? Impossible, if grace is irresistible. The nice thing about Calvinists is how they constantly contradict themselves. Being a slave to sin doesn't mean we can't repent when convicted, and being slaves to Christ doesn't mean we can't sin. We still make free choices.

You still have no idea what Irresistable grace is teaching......and you do not seem to understand this section of romans6;
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

First we have a sense of right and wrong based upon our created conscience. And it seems you're one of those type of Calvinists that I try to tell other Calvinists that ones like you exist which say everything about the unsaved person is sin. They've tried to tell me that Calvinistic Total Depravity doesn't mean you're as bad as you could be. It seems you do. You seem to believe the unsaved are absolutely nothing but sin, no possibility of any good thought whatsoever.

prov21
4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
Plowing is a noble work.....why is the plowing of the wicked sin????

 

[Loren T.]

Now I see the problem. You are getting your doctrine from Wikipedia. Try the bible. It works much better that way.

When a student of mine wrote a paper, thesis, or dissertation, he was not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. It is wrong as often as it is right. Cite Wikipedia = FAIL!

I cited it, hoping you would give me your definition of limited atonement.

 

[Loren T.]

Why do you keep doing this. It is an out and out falsehood. Shame on you.

Because you've done nothing to prove it wrong.