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OldWiseGuy

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The laws of God that can be reasonably applied today are practical rules that benefit everyone. The Sabbath is our personal day when we can recover from six days of mixing it up with the world, and prepare for the next round. :eek: Americans are generally overworked, overstressed, and overstimulated. A full days rest once a week from all these is necessary just to keep our heads above water.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Not just to believe, that is bare minimum this faith requires. We must live a Holy and righteous life according to God's commandments and precepts He has taught us in His word.

Matthew 25:30 KJB
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Perhaps you can explain how you do that. All my righteousness is filthy rags, according to God.
 
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BlessedCreator

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Perhaps you can explain how you do that. All my righteousness is filthy rags, according to God.

By obeying God's commandments. It's that simple. For example to be profitable servants as we are taught in Matthew 25 in the parable of the talents where He warns us that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. Or how Christ tells us He will tell those that commit iniquity to depart from Him. Therefore you better learn what things are iniquity unto God and not do them.
 
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eleos1954

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The word is clear we do not have to keep the Sabbath. That is not to say you cant because it is implied that that is allowed, if you want to.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, all the disciples kept the Sabbath, 4th commandment in the heart of the 10 commandments

1 Peter 2:21 “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:” ...

Not because He was a Jew ... He IS God ... who knows more about God than God?

Follow the Lamb.

Matthew 12:18
Berean Study Bible
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
 
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Aussie Pete

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By obeying God's commandments. It's that simple. For example to be profitable servants as we are taught in Matthew 25 in the parable of the talents where He warns us that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. Or how Christ tells us He will tell those that commit iniquity to depart from Him. Therefore you better learn what things are iniquity unto God and not do them.
So you never have a lustful thought, never fail to forgive someone who has offended you, never disobey God in anything at any time, always love your neighbour as your self and love God with all of your being? You will be the only human in heaven. Congratulations.
 
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BlessedCreator

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So eternal torment is a creature of Grace?

Jesus kept the Sabbath, all the disciples kept the Sabbath, 4th commandment in the heart of the 10 commandments

1 Peter 2:21 “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:” ...

Not because He was a Jew ... He IS God ... who knows more about God than God?

Follow the Lamb.

Matthew 12:18
Berean Study Bible
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus kept the Sabbath because it was still in effect until He was crucified and risen.
 
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BlessedCreator

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So you never have a lustful thought, never fail to forgive someone who has offended you, never disobey God in anything at any time, always love your neighbour as your self and love God with all of your being? You will be the only human in heaven. Congratulations.

Hebrews 10:26-29 KJB
"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

This verse Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the regenerated Christian who has apostasized from the faith (walking in obedience unto God).

Apostasy defined by the Marriam Webster Dictionary:

"1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty :"

That is not to say that willful sin is okay, because it is not at all. Do not tempt the Lord.
 
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Soyeong

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When I first came to the truth of the Bible and realized that we need to obey God's will to
be saved, one of the things that I was unsure of, until I searched the scriptures, was whether or
not I needed to keep the Sabbath day or not. As I knew it was something God commanded the Israelites
to keep. But was it something Christians needed to?

Scripture makes it clear that Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

From Ellicott's commentary on Colossians 2:16
"It is obvious that St. Paul gives no hint of any succession of the Lord's Day to be,
in any strict sense, a "Christian Sabbath." We know, indeed, that the Jewish Sabbath itself
lingered in the Church, as having a kind of sacredness, kept sometimes as a fast, sometimes
as a festival. But its observance was not of obligation. No man was to "judge" others in respect of it."

In the book of Acts in chapter 21 verse 25, Paul is speaking on things regarding the customs of the Jews,
and what, if any, should the gentiles keep.
"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no
such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered
to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

If the Sabbath was something to be kept under the new covenant,
I believe it would have been mentioned here.

Mark 2:23-28
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his
disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said
unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said
unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they
that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high
priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and
gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was
made for man, and not man for the sabbath: therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

Those that are in Christ under grace through faith are not under the Law
neither the commandments of Moses. Though I will say, besides the Sabbath commandment, the other 9 commandments
are taught (some indirectly) in the New Testament.

Romans 6:14
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Paul was not an enemy of God, so he should not be interpreted as teaching us to rebel against what God has commanded. Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so if Paul had spoken against obeying God and God had therefore spoken against obeying Paul, then it shouldn't be difficult to figure out which one has the higher authority and which one we should follow, but it doesn't need to come down to that because the reality is that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's laws.

In Colossians 2:16, Paul described the people who were judging them as teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so they were being judged by pagans. This means that they were being judged because they were keeping God's holy days and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

If you believe that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then you should live in a way that testifies about who he is by keeping the Sabbath holy.

In Romans 6:14, Paul specified that the law that we aren't under was a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's holy, righteous, and good law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that was how Jesus was gracious to us. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renonce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn that gift, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the tragression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith in what being saved from living in transgression of God's law looks like.
 
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Soyeong

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Perhaps you can explain how you do that. All my righteousness is filthy rags, according to God.
God never said that. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, so it would be absurd to think that He holds those who do that in contempt by viewing our actions as filthy rags. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).
 
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BlessedCreator

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Paul was not an enemy of God, so he should not be interpreted as teaching us to rebel against what God has commanded. Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so if Paul had spoken against obeying God and God had therefore spoken against obeying Paul, then it shouldn't be difficult to figure out which one has the higher authority and which one we should follow, but it doesn't need to come down to that because the reality is that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's laws.

In Colossians 2:16, Paul described the people who were judging them as teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so they were being judged by pagans. This means that they were being judged because they were keeping God's holy days and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

If you believe that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then you should live in a way that testifies about who he is by keeping the Sabbath holy.

In Romans 6:14, Paul specified that the law that we aren't under was a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's holy, righteous, and good law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that was how Jesus was gracious to us. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renonce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn that gift, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the tragression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith in what being saved from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

Sorry but you're twisting scripture. We are told very clearly we are not under the law.

Romans 6:14 KJB
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
 
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BobRyan

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Scripture makes it clear that Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

Col 2:16 does not delete meat, or drinking or holy days or new moon or sabbath days.

It does affirm the pre-cross rule in Matthew 7 "judge not that you be not judged".
Col 2 does condemn the traditions of man. But it does not condemn the Bible.


From Ellicott's commentary on Colossians 2:16
"It is obvious that St. Paul gives no hint of any succession of the Lord's Day to be,
in any strict sense, a "Christian Sabbath."

Which is where the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19, the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19, D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry ..etc would differ with Ellicott.


In the book of Acts in chapter 21 verse 25, Paul is speaking on things regarding the customs of the Jews,
and what, if any, should the gentiles keep.
"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no
such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered
to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

If the Sabbath was something to be kept under the new covenant,
I believe it would have been mentioned here.

And so what about
"Do not take God's name in vain" -- is it your claim that Acts 21 was written to delete that one?
"Honor your father and mother" -- is it your claim that Acts 21 was written to delete that one?
"Love God with all your heart" -- is it your claim that Acts 21 was written to delete that one?

(We could do that sort of thing all day)

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath"


Those that are in Christ under grace through faith are not under the Law
neither the commandments of Moses.

And so what about
"Do not take God's name in vain" -- is it your claim that Romans 6 was written to delete that one?
"Honor your father and mother" -- is it your claim that Romans 6 was written to delete that one?
"Love God with all your heart" -- is it your claim that Romans 6 was written to delete that one?

(We could do that sort of thing all day)

Though I will say, besides the Sabbath commandment, the other 9 commandments
are taught (some indirectly) in the New Testament.

In the Bible itself we have "the TEN Commandments" as a phrase inspired by God a number of time... but not once do we find "the NINE Commandments" as any kind of phrase in the Bible. All we have in that regard is James 2 "to break one is to break them all" and also the reminder that as a unit of law -- the fifth commandment "is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-1

"there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4 ... nothing like that for "Do not take God's name in vain" in the NT... but both of those commands remain.

"For all eternity after the cross" in the new Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to worship" Isaiah 66:23 no wonder we find both Jews and gentiles in the synagogues "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4-12
 
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klutedavid

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Jesus kept the Sabbath because it was still in effect until He was crucified and risen.
Your missing the point altogether.

Jesus and all the apostles were circumcised and that is the law. Anyone who attempts to obey the law must be circumcised. That is why Paul told the Gentiles not to be circumcised, because that is what the law requires. You obey one law you must then obey them all.

We don't select one law and throw six hundred other laws in the bin.

Jesus fulfilled the moral law and those moral laws no longer apply to us. Love itself is what the law points to, the law is a shadow of unconditional love.

God is love.
 
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BlessedCreator

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Your missing the point altogether.

Jesus and all the apostles were circumcised and that is the law. Anyone who attempts to obey the law must be circumcised. That is why Paul told the Gentiles not to be circumcised, because that is what the law requires. You obey one law you must then obey them all.

We don't select one law and throw six hundred other laws in the bin.

Jesus fulfilled the moral law and those moral laws no longer apply to us. Love itself is what the law points to, the law is a shadow of unconditional love.

God is love.

If you think you are not under the "moral law" to obey God and live a Holy and righteous life you are wrong.

Hebrews 10:26-29 KJB
"
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

This verse Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the regenerated Christian who has apostasized from the faith (walking in obedience unto God).

Apostasy defined by the Marriam Webster Dictionary:

"1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty :"

That is not to say that willful sin is okay, because it is not at all. Do not tempt the Lord.
 
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Soyeong

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Sorry but you're twisting scripture. We are told very clearly we are not under the law.

Romans 6:14 KJB
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

I completely agree that we aren't under the law, however, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as God's law, the law of sin, and works of the law, so it important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we aren't under in order to avoid making the mistake interpreting him as teaching us to rebel against God. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that is of works with a law that is of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted God's law with the law of sin, so if you assume he is always speaking about God's law, then you are guaranteed to misinterpret what he said. Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against sin, so I have no idea how you can read that chapter, say that Paul was teaching against obeying God, and have the audacity to accuse me of being the one who is twisting Scripture.
 
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klutedavid

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God never said that. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law
It is God's will that you repent and believe in Jesus Christ. That is what the law and the prophets are all really about. The arrival of the messiah. Obeying the law in part or fully, will not ever meet God's perfect requirement for immortality.
so it would be absurd to think that He holds those who do that in contempt by viewing our actions as filthy rags.
Christ was the one who achieved perfect legal obedience, perfect righteousness. That is the righteousness that we receive as a gift from God Himself.

Surely you will not arrive at the wedding wearing your own wedding clothes? Stained with your own failure to meet the law in full and perfect obedience. Tell me your not going to do that.

The white linen is the righteousness of Christ that we wear.

Romans 4:6
Just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
 
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klutedavid

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If you think you are not under the "moral law" to obey God and live a Holy and righteous life you are wrong.
No I am not wrong.

The will of God is to believe in Jesus Christ and that is the life that I live. The blood of bulls cannot save anyone. The law is weak and useless for salvation and for seeking righteousness.

Hebrews 7:18
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.

Let's take a close look at your next quotation.
Hebrews 10:26-29 KJB
"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
You threw six hundred laws from Moses into the bin and ignored the law of Moses. That is despising the law of Moses and you have condemned yourself.
 
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klutedavid

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@BlessedCreator, shalom,

Yes the Sabbath is for observance today. There are many Scriptures to verify this throughout the Bible, but some Christians seem happy to jump on ambiguous words from Paul to disobey this. See 2 Peter 3:16.

The best advice I can give to you is to keep the Sabbath for a month and see if it is a blessing or not. As for me, I love the Sabbath and eagerly look forward to it each week as its a special day, ordained by the Creator, to celebrate His great work of Creation.

Some practical advice now:
  • From sundown on Friday, rest till Saturday sundown (no work, no buying or selling).
  • Try to prepare ahead of hand so everything is done before then so you don't have any last minute jobs.
  • You can cook food but leave the dishes if you can!
  • Enjoy the Word or spending time in or meditating on His Creation.
  • Don't think observing Sabbatg makes you more righteous than another disciple.
  • Don't think you need to observe Sabbath for salvation.
  • Do good on the Sabbath - if you see or hear of someone in need and you have the power to help, then do so, even if it means you will be working. Love is most important thing.

I hope you enjoy the Sabbath as well if you do decide to observe it. I'm sure you will! It is a geeat sign given to us from the Creator.

Love & Shalom
You must practice the new moon day as a day of rest. Then you count six more days and you have the Sabbath day. Always six days of work and a day of rest.

Exodus was written under the format of a lunar calendar.

You are more than likely using a papal calendar. A solar calendar has extra days and a continuous cycles of weeks.
Passover is celebrated by a lunar reckoning and not by a papal calendar. That says it all as far as I am concerned.
 
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BABerean2

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When I first came to the truth of the Bible and realized that we need to obey God's will to
be saved, one of the things that I was unsure of, until I searched the scriptures, was whether or
not I needed to keep the Sabbath day or not. As I knew it was something God commanded the Israelites
to keep. But was it something Christians needed to?

Scripture makes it clear that Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:16
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

From Ellicott's commentary on Colossians 2:16
"It is obvious that St. Paul gives no hint of any succession of the Lord's Day to be,
in any strict sense, a "Christian Sabbath." We know, indeed, that the Jewish Sabbath itself
lingered in the Church, as having a kind of sacredness, kept sometimes as a fast, sometimes
as a festival. But its observance was not of obligation. No man was to "judge" others in respect of it."

In the book of Acts in chapter 21 verse 25, Paul is speaking on things regarding the customs of the Jews,
and what, if any, should the gentiles keep.
"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no
such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered
to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

If the Sabbath was something to be kept under the new covenant,
I believe it would have been mentioned here.

Mark 2:23-28
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his
disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said
unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said
unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they
that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high
priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and
gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was
made for man, and not man for the sabbath: therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

Those that are in Christ under grace through faith are not under the Law
neither the commandments of Moses. Though I will say, besides the Sabbath commandment, the other 9 commandments
are taught (some indirectly) in the New Testament.

Romans 6:14
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18.

We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion, in Hebrews 12:22-24.
.
 
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klutedavid

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I believe the best use of Sabbath time is rest, abstaining from all unnecessary activity. The very word means rest, repose.
The real rest the scripture is talking about is the rest from your feeble attempt, at exerting your own righteousness before the Lord.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,”

Your missing the point completely. Jesus is the one who fulfilled the law and not us. It is His righteousness that is the gift we receive. That is why believers enter the real rest that God provided.

Your lost in the shadows and you cannot see clearly.
 
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klutedavid

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We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18.

We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion, in Hebrews 12:22-24.
.
You beat me to that one.

They are at the wrong mountain and trying to touch the wrong mountain.

Hebrews 12:18
For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind.

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

Mt Sinai is death, Mt Sinai represents your legal works.
 
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