Righteousness Consciousness

[Fervent]

IDK. I thought you were distinguishing between a faith such as that referred to in Rom 1:19-20 as opposed to faith has a supernatural gift. And I'm only saying that all Christian faith is necessarily a supernatural gift.

I agree all faith is a supernatural gift, the distinguishment is between "the gift of faith" in 1 Cor 12, which context implies is not given to everyone but is instead distributed to a few, and the faith that is given to all believers in common. Now, there's not enough in the text to truly say what Paul meant to imply in 1 Cor 12 but it is clear it is this same thing that is in mind in 1 Cor 13 where extreme provisions of other individual gifts are highlighted to contrast them to love(which is common to all).

 

[fhansen]

I agree all faith is a supernatural gift, the distinguishment is between "the gift of faith" in 1 Cor 12, which context implies is not given to everyone but is instead distributed to a few, and the faith that is given to all believers in common. Now, there's not enough in the text to truly say what Paul meant to imply in 1 Cor 12 but it is clear it is this same thing that is in mind in 1 13 where extreme provisions of other individual gifts are highlighted to contrast them to love(which is common to all).

I think you’re over-complicating it. 1 Cor 13:1 is simply about the supremacy of love. Then at the end Paul even lists the three virtues, historically called the three “theological virtues” which simply means the supernatural gifts that constitute basic justice or righteousness for man, and then reaffirms that love is the most important.

That really shouldn’t come as a surprise to a Christian should it? Faith and hope are necessary only in this life whereas love is eternal, to be eternally experienced, shared, enjoyed. Love is the reason Jesus came. Love, again, is a primary aspect of Gods own nature and the primary aspect of man’s justice or righteousness which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. It’s the end goal, so to speak.

 

[Fervent]

I think you’re over-complicating it. 1 Cor 13:1 is simply about the supremacy of love. Then at the end Paul even lists the three virtues, historically called the three “theological virtues” which simply means the supernatural gifts that constitute basic justice or righteousness for man, and then reaffirms that love is the most important.

That really shouldn’t come as a surprise to a Christian should it? Faith and hope are necessary only in this life whereas love is eternal, to be eternally experienced, shared, enjoyed. Love is the reason Jesus came. Love, again, is a primary aspect of Gods own nature and the primary aspect of man’s justice or righteousness which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

What is Paul's purpose in expounding on the value of love to the Corinthians, if not to encourage them to come together as a church(as division in the church is the repeated theme throughout the letter)? Why, then, should we read the faith in 1 Cor 13 as anything different than the one he spoke of in 1 Cor 12 immediately after explaining to them that gifts are for the body? There's no complicated move, no forced interpretation, simply reading the whole letter as a unit and observing how Paul constructs his argument in order to inform what the terms indicate. You are one body which requires diversity of function, these gifts are dividing you even though they were meant so that you would rely on each other, if I have the best gift but somehow missed love the gift is worthless. So, then, why should we believe the diverse gift of faith is the same as the common gift of faith?

 

[fhansen]

What is Paul's purpose in expounding on the value of love to the Corinthians, if not to encourage them to come together as a church(as division in the church is the repeated theme throughout the letter)? Why, then, should we read the faith in 1 Cor 13 as anything different than the one he spoke of in 1 Cor 12 immediately after explaining to them that gifts are for the body? There's no complicated move, no forced interpretation, simply reading the whole letter as a unit and observing how Paul constructs his argument in order to inform what the terms indicate. You are one body which requires diversity of function, these gifts are dividing you even though they were meant so that you would rely on each other, if I have the best gift but somehow missed love the gift is worthless. So, then, why should we believe the diverse gift of faith is the same as the common gift of faith?

Yes, over-complicates. Faith is faith. And even in verse 8 he speaks of the permanency of love over and against the temporary nature of other gifts. He simply used chap 13 to take the time to exalt love.

 

[Fervent]

Yes, over-complicates. Faith is faith. And even in verse 8 he speaks of the permanency of love over and against the temporary nature of other gifts. He simply used chap 13 to take the time to exalt love.

Let me break this down by looking at the text. For ease, my comments are in blue with the text presented in black.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Here, Paul states gifts are given in variety, with different believers receiving different ones. Among the ones he lists, is faith. There is no indication that these gifts are common to all, but that they are distinctly given to individuals that each is forced to rely on the other. The passage begins with the idea that these gifts are given individually and in diversity, and it ends with the idea that they are individual. There is no indication that any of them are common to all.

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Here Paul makes his argument by analogy speaking of the functions and aptitudes of the body, especially highlighting that there is a special honor reserved for the parts often seen to have the least honorable function. The need for diversity is especially central and made clear by imagining if the body was entirely composed of one part. Again, the central idea is unified purpose through diverse endowment.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

The functions within the church are made explicit, each requiring its own gifting.

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Here Paul asks hypothetical questions, of which the common answer is implied to be "no." Now, he does not explicitly mention faith but as it was expressly identified alongside the other offices and giftings mentioned it does not seem it would be an inappropriate shift to include it.

But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Now Paul encourages desiring gifts and bridges the thought with what is to come, priming the reader to keep what has been said up to here in mind as he highlights a better focus than simply desiring gifts for the gifts sake. This thought links his discussion of diversity in the body with the expounding on the supremacy of love in 1 Cor 13, allowing us to discern his purpose in focusing on love.

 

[fhansen]

You're close, but not entirely there.

This is interesting, to me at least: I actually prophesied that you’d say that-and didn’t even know I had the gift!

Faith is action as much as it is belief. When Abraham offered Isaac, that was faith. When David stood against Goliath, that was faith. Faith is listening to and doing what God says, as James says "You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete." It is not faith to believe that the ship will weather the storms, faith is getting in the boat.

I don’t disagree with this, depending on how we want to qualify faith. But can faith exist without works-or does it always include them? And could a faith without them still save us-as some actually insist. Or are we saved by a faith that works, but not by those works: by faith alone but a faith which isn’t alone- or is even that still demanding too much of myself in the picture-and/or more than faith should necessarily include? The doctrine of Sola Fide inherently cannot provide the answers to those questions by itself-and so disagreement results over this matter. And of course even then James ends with,
“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

To be honest I think James was trying to correct misconceptions that were already in the air, that by faith alone one is almost magically translated into a new creation permanently saved forever and ever and no longer held accountable for sin. John 12:42-43 also comes to mind as being related here:
“Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.”

They believed, but wouldn’t act on that faith. Anyway, faith should cause us to act, but the human will is involved, from that first step of faith until the end of our lives.

I think its also important to keep in mind the big picture in God’s purposes. The message of our gospel is not: Adam did something bad and now all mankind is bad and all deserve to go to hell and yet God wants all us yucky folk to be saved, or part of us anyway depending on theology. The gospel is really all about man coming to learn what Adam didn’t yet acknowledge in Eden, that he needs God in order to be who he was created to be, in order to have life and life abundantly, in order to have any real, lasting happiness and satisfaction, let alone find moral and spiritual integrity, i.e. holiness. He cannot go it on his own. But he was not created to be a sinner either. He just, simply, needs God, and then with God everything starts falling into right order, justice and peace to increasingly reign in our lives. And the nearer we are to Him and the more we remain in Him the closer we’ll be to the people we were created to be, all being made in His image to begin with but failing to reflect it, humanity having lost communion with Him. That, attaining the perfection and purpose that we were created for as we come to know and enter fellowship with God, beginning here on earth, is salvation. All made possible by Christ’s work of reconciliation enabling us to unite with Him via faith.

Getting in the boat is a good analogy. Faith embarks us on a journey, the only right one, with God at the helm. We must stay on board, not jump ship, doing whatever He asks of us more than not, on our way to permanent safe harbor with Him.

 

[fhansen]

Let me break this down by looking at the text. For ease, my comments are in blue with the text presented in black.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Here, Paul states gifts are given in variety, with different believers receiving different ones. Among the ones he lists, is faith. There is no indication that these gifts are common to all, but that they are distinctly given to individuals that each is forced to rely on the other. The passage begins with the idea that these gifts are given individually and in diversity, and it ends with the idea that they are individual. There is no indication that any of them are common to all.

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Here Paul makes his argument by analogy speaking of the functions and aptitudes of the body, especially highlighting that there is a special honor reserved for the parts often seen to have the least honorable function. The need for diversity is especially central and made clear by imagining if the body was entirely composed of one part. Again, the central idea is unified purpose through diverse endowment.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

The functions within the church are made explicit, each requiring its own gifting.

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Here Paul asks hypothetical questions, of which the common answer is implied to be "no." Now, he does not explicitly mention faith but as it was expressly identified alongside the other offices and giftings mentioned it does not seem it would be an inappropriate shift to include it.

But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Now Paul encourages desiring gifts and bridges the thought with what is to come, priming the reader to keep what has been said up to here in mind as he highlights a better focus than simply desiring gifts for the gifts sake. This thought links his discussion of diversity in the body with the expounding on the supremacy of love in 1 Cor 13, allowing us to discern his purpose in focusing on love.

Personally, I don't think I'd belabor this whole thing much. Faith is faith-and even "common faith" is temporary whereas love is eternal and the epitome of righteousness for man, the goal, that which makes all things right, that will make life worth living eternally, that gives worth to all things as Teresa of Avila, a 16th century Spanish nun with and uncompromising heart for God, put it.