Righteousness Consciousness

[fhansen]

You have completely misunderstood! You have twisted what I said also! So I don’t want to cause an offense! I just pray one day you can see what others are trying to say about grace, and maybe let go of the debative spirit you posses! A debative spirit blinds you to the truth.

So now I'm the only one debating here LOL? Truth is the issue. And you've settled for something novel-and less. That certainly isn't my doing. And I can't help but not want to see the gospel corrupted. Maybe the problem isn't my "debative spirit" but simply the fact that you disagree with me-or that the truth isn't always so comfortable. And I haven't intended to twist what you've said-and don't believe I have.

If what you mean to say is that, because Christ died for me, while I was yet a sinner, I am now, by faith, standing in a forgiven state, cleansed and no longer condemned for my past sins, existing in a state of true justice or righteousness for the first time now by virtue of union with God, given time to work out my salvation together with Him, which includes putting to death the deeds of the flesh (sin) such that, when I die I won't be standing merely on faith but also on what I did while in the body, not held to the standard of absolute perfection while still held to a standard of personal righteousness that God deems sufficient for me, and not a merely imputed righteousness, then I agree.

 

[friend of]

when I die I won't be standing merely on faith but also on what I did while in the body, not held to the standard of absolute perfection while still held to a standard of personal righteousness that God deems sufficient for me, and not a merely imputed righteousness, then I agree.

We have nothing to add to our salvation except the sin that made the sacrifice of Christ necessary

 

[fhansen]

We have nothing to add to our salvation except the sin that made the sacrifice of Christ necessary

Sure we do. We have to want it; we have to want what He wants; we have to want Him- even as we need help to even do that. He just won't force that issue at the end of the day.
“we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” 2 Cor 5

 

[friend of]

Sure we do. We have to want it; we have to want what He wants; we have to want Him- even as we need help to even do that. He just won't force that issue at the end of the day.
“we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” 2 Cor 5

2 Cor 5 verse you posted is not talking about salvation, it's speaking about rewards.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is a law of sin. There is a law of grace. Each acts independent of us! We are either yielding toward the law of sin, or the law of grace. We don’t determine how grace work in our lives, because we don’t own grace. Grace is from God who does the work, He is the Husbandman? We are asked to believe, not work!

If God is doing the work of the law as you put it, than sin would have never been introduced in the first place and God would have made us robots to obey Him. We very much have free will and every day I have to make the decision to obey God or do my will. We are saved by God's grace, His gift through our faith. We are judged though based on our actions. These are two different things.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

One of the last scriptures before the Revelation of Jesus Christ!

Revelations 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

We do not obey to be saved, we obey because we love our Savior and it is a fruit of our faith.

 

[fhansen]

2 Cor 5 verse you posted is not talking about salvation, it's speaking about rewards.

sure, of course, the rewards thing, so critical

 

[friend of]

sure, of course, the rewards thing, so critical

Try 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

 

[friend of]

sure, of course, the rewards thing, so critical

Not that it is or isn't critical, but that's what it is indeed talking about.

 

[fhansen]

Try 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

ok, that worked out. now your turn to try it.

 

[biblelesson]

If God is doing the work of the law as you put it, than sin would have never been introduced in the first place and God would have made us robots to obey Him. We very much have free will and every day I have to make the decision to obey God or do my will. We are saved by God's grace, His gift through our faith. We are judged though based on our actions. These are two different things.

Because Israel could not keep the law, which is the law of sin and death, God offered Salvation to all men, by the crucification of Christ. We are saved by grace: God worked out our salvation based on his on His own will, having predestinated us, "Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

- There is a law of sin. There is a law of grace. Each acts independent of us! If we yield to the law of sin, we reap condemnation. If we yield to the law of grace, or law of righteousness, we reap righteousness. Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death (law of sin), or of obedience unto righteousness (law of grace).

- Grace is from God who does the work, He is the Husbandman? We are asked to believe, not work! The work I'm referring to is working any part of the law for our salvation because, we have been redeemed from the law, Galatians 4:5, "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might received the adoptions of sons.

Ephesians 1:11-12, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." John 15:1, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Romans 8:2-6, "For the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because Israel could not keep the law, which is the law of sin and death, God offered Salvation to all men, by the crucification of Christ. We are saved by grace: God worked out our salvation based on his on His own will, having predestinated us, "Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

- There is a law of sin. There is a law of grace. Each acts independent of us! If we yield to the law of sin, we reap condemnation. If we yield to the law of grace, or law of righteousness, we reap righteousness. Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death (law of sin), or of obedience unto righteousness (law of grace).

- Grace is from God who does the work, He is the Husbandman? We are asked to believe, not work! The work I'm referring to is working any part of the law for our salvation because, we have been redeemed from the law, Galatians 4:5, "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might received the adoptions of sons.

Ephesians 1:11-12, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." John 15:1, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Romans 8:2-6, "For the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

So do you believe you have God's Spirit when breaking God's laws? I think many take these verses to mean you can break God's laws and still be in God's Spirit. When we walk with Christ and want to obey we are provided the Holy Spirit Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18 but many deceive themselves into believing that God is going to prevent us from sinning and when we sin it's an act of God and God is okay with it. That is not what these verses mean. Sin is transgressing God's law 1 John 3:4

This is how you know you are walking in the Spirit:

Isiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

We do not want to be put in this position when Jesus comes again

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We show love to Jesus though our obedience according to Jesus. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3. Exodus 20:6

We do not obey to be saved, it is a fruit of our faith.

God bless

 

[fhansen]

Not that it is or isn't critical, but that's what it is indeed talking about.

sure, that doesn't fit the context imo, but exegesis often involves preference-based interpretations anyway.

 

[Fervent]

So now I'm the only one debating here LOL? Truth is the issue. And you've settled for something novel-and less. That certainly isn't my doing. And I can't help but not want to see the gospel corrupted. Maybe the problem isn't my "debative spirit" but simply the fact that you disagree with me-or that the truth isn't always so comfortable. And I haven't intended to twist what you've said-and don't believe I have.

If what you mean to say is that, because Christ died for me, while I was yet a sinner, I am now, by faith, standing in a forgiven state, cleansed and no longer condemned for my past sins, existing in a state of true justice or righteousness for the first time now by virtue of union with God, given time to work out my salvation together with Him, which includes putting to death the deeds of the flesh (sin) such that, when I die I won't be standing merely on faith but also on what I did while in the body, not held to the standard of absolute perfection while still held to a standard of personal righteousness that God deems sufficient for me, and not a merely imputed righteousness, then I agree.

You're short selling what happens when one is born again. We are not merely forgiven of sin, given a clean slate, and then subjected to the exact same situation. We are given a new nature with new desires. "Imputed" righteousness is not some sort of fiction where God pretends we are righteous even though we aren't, we are made actually righteous. Where the confusion comes in is people often think of actions as righteous or unrighteous, but righteousness is not in actions. Every action can be done unrighteously, and any action can be done righteously. Which is why "what is not of faith is sin." Human sacrifice is generally unrighteous, yet had Abraham not offered Isaac that would have been unrighteous because God told Abraham to offer Isaac. So what is righteousness? Trusing God for one's salvation, all else is debt.

 

[fhansen]

You're short selling what happens when one is born again. We are not merely forgiven of sin, given a clean slate, and then subjected to the exact same situation. We are given a new nature with new desires. "Imputed" righteousness is not some sort of fiction where God pretends we are righteous even though we aren't, we are made actually righteous. Where the confusion comes in is people often think of actions as righteous or unrighteous, but righteousness is not in actions. Every action can be done unrighteously, and any action can be done righteously. Which is why "what is not of faith is sin." Human sacrifice is generally unrighteous, yet had Abraham not offered Isaac that would have been unrighteous because God told Abraham to offer Isaac. So what is righteousness? Trusing God for one's salvation, all else is debt.

And?? Just because righteousness can be faked doesn't mean that it cannot also be real. And no, many insist that man is justified, made right, strictly by imputation, with no change in him-or no change necessary in any case. And righteousness is way more than only faith or trusting in God, as if faith is the end-all equivalent of righteousness for man, or replaces the need for it. Love wears that crown, not faith. Faith is the means to it, because the faith is the means to its Source. But having faith, alone, in no way guarantees it. Anyway, right actions can be motivated by the real thing, or not.

 

[Fervent]

And?? Just because righteousness can be faked doesn't mean that it cannot also be real. And no, many insist that man is justified, made right, strictly by imputation, with no change in him-or no change necessary in any case. And righteousness is way more than only faith or trusting in God, as if faith is the end-all equivalent of righteousness for man, or replaces the need for it. Love wears that crown, not faith. Faith is the means to it, because the faith is the means to its Source. But having faith, alone, in no way guarantees it. Anyway, right actions can be motivated by the real thing, or not.

It's not a matter of being real or faked, but that righteousness is not an inherent quality of actions. Actions are neutral until God gives them a moral dimension. What more is there to righteousness than believing God? I am in no way diminishing love, as love is inevitably a result of believing God but what do we know of love independent of believing God?

 

[fhansen]

It's not a matter of being real or faked, but that righteousness is not an inherent quality of actions. Actions are neutral until God gives them a moral dimension. What more is there to righteousness than believing God? I am in no way diminishing love, as love is inevitably a result of believing God but what do we know of love independent of believing God?

Here's how Paul put it:

"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor
12:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

And Augustine is worth hearing on this:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

 

[fhansen]

It's not a matter of being real or faked, but that righteousness is not an inherent quality of actions. Actions are neutral until God gives them a moral dimension. What more is there to righteousness than believing God? I am in no way diminishing love, as love is inevitably a result of believing God but what do we know of love independent of believing God?

Love is the right motivation; every act done in love is right.

 

[Fervent]

Here's how Paul put it:

"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor
12:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

And Augustine is worth hearing on this:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

In context of 1 Cor 12-13, is Paul speaking of the faith that is common or of faith as one of the gifts given to individual believers?

 

[fhansen]

In context of 1 Cor 12-13, is Paul speaking of the faith that is common or of faith as one of the gifts given to individual believers?

Well, if it could move mountains...

 

[Fervent]

Well, if it could move mountains...

?