Righteousness Consciousness

[fhansen]

?

I wasn't sure what the purpose of distinguishing between types of faith was anyway but a faith that could potentially move mountains would be a supernatural one, the gift in any case, I'd think.

 

[Fervent]

I wasn't sure what the purpose of distinguishing between types of faith was anyway but a faith that could potentially move mountains would be a supernatural one, the gift in any case, I'd think.

I misremembered, point rescinded.

 

[biblelesson]

Here's how Paul put it:

"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor
12:2

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

And Augustine is worth hearing on this:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

fhansen, you still don't understand! Why do you keep trying to change around the gospel? You quote Augustine over what God says. Who is Augustine? All the important prophets in the bible ended with John who wrote Revelations. No one else is of any importance to God as far as His word is concerned, no more than you and I.

In addition, you must have faith first. Faith enters you into salvation. From that point we are given the Holy Spirit, which we receive the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, kindness, long-suffering, meekness, and others. Without the Holy Spirit, we are not able to posses any of the fruits of the Spirit that's given by God Himself by His Spirit.

Our love coming from us is not love. It is not the kind of love that God gives us. We are of the flesh, and without walking in the new man, in the Spirit, we are dealing with the flesh that's not accepted by God. So we can be nice, loving, kind, etc. without the Holy Spirit, and we still loose our salvation. We, our old man, has been crucified with Christ, and we must walk in the new man; the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9, ..."Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

We cannot walk in the Spirit unless God gives us His Spirit. Love coming from man means nothing. It must be produced by His Spirit in us.

Everything is in Christ. Christ is above all things; and everything is beneath Christ's feet. Christ is over all things in the Christians' life. He encompass all. He is over all of our enemies, all of our situations, everything. There is nothing Christ is not over.

So faith comes first, to believe on Christ for our salvation. We are then given the Holy Spirit as the earnest of our salvation (downpayment to eternal life). Then the Holy Spirit helps us to walk in the new man, whereby we walk in the fruits of the Spirit: love, etc.

 

[fhansen]

You quote Augustine over what God says.

Um...no! His sentiments, and most of them-not all- concur quite well with God's word. I'll quote anyone who does a good job at that-including yourself!

In addition, you must have faith first. Faith enters you into salvation. From that point we are given the Holy Spirit, which we receive the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, kindness, long-suffering, meekness, and others. Without the Holy Spirit, we are not able to posses any of the fruits of the Spirit that's given by God Himself by His Spirit.

Of course?? And??

Our love coming from us is not love. It is not the kind of love that God gives us. We are of the flesh, and without walking in the new man, in the Spirit, we are dealing with the flesh that's not accepted by God. So we can be nice, loving, kind, etc. without the Holy Spirit, and we still loose our salvation. We, our old man, has been crucified with Christ, and we must walk in the new man; the Spirit of Christ.

Ok?? Still waiting for something that conflicts with what I've said.

We cannot walk in the Spirit unless God gives us His Spirit. Love coming from man means nothing. It must be produced by His Spirit in us.

Very good. As I've been quoting:
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

Everything is in Christ. Christ is above all things; and everything is beneath Christ's feet. Christ is over all things in the Christians' life. He encompass all. He is over all of our enemies, all of our situations, everything. There is nothing Christ is not over.

So faith comes first, to believe on Christ for our salvation. We are then given the Holy Spirit as the earnest of our salvation (downpayment to eternal life). Then the Holy Spirit helps us to walk in the new man, whereby we walk in the fruits of the Spirit: love, etc.

K-good. I said all that-and Augustine would agree incidentally-but I still don't understand according to you. ok.

 

[Fervent]

I wasn't sure what the purpose of distinguishing between types of faith was anyway but a faith that could potentially move mountains would be a supernatural one, the gift in any case, I'd think.

Ok, so I'll expand on it. You took those passages to try to compare faith, as in the saving faith that is common to all believers, with love and demonstrate that love is the superior virtue. Now, as we are in agreement that what is being discussed is the "gift of faith" that is given to select individuals within the body it is inappropriate to cite those passages to speak of the faith we are saved by. So then we return to the central question, by what means does righteousness come? What is the constant refrain, from Habakkuk on? The righteous shall live by what?

 

[fhansen]

Ok, so I'll expand on it. You took those passages to try to compare faith, as in the saving faith that is common to all believers, with love and demonstrate that love is the superior virtue. Now, as we are in agreement that what is being discussed is the "gift of faith" that is given to select individuals within the body it is inappropriate to cite those passages to speak of the faith we are saved by. So then we return to the central question, by what means does righteousness come? What is the constant refrain, from Habakkuk on? The righteous shall live by what?

Christianity understands that faith can exist without love and so fleshes out the concept accurately:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

Faith is the beginning; it opens the door to love because it opens the door to God. So the righteous most certainly will live by faith. But faith doesn't guarantee love and without love we haven't yet arrived. If the doctrine of Sola Fide insisted on this, that we're saved only by a faith that loves, or that leads to love, then I would have less problem with it. But it doesn't. SF adherents would be all over the board in consideration of such a concept, many rejecting it out of hand. And yet love is the heart and soul of the Christian faith, and the very definition of full justice or righteousness for man. If you want to add the term "alone" to any word associated with salvation, "Sola Caritas" would be far more accurate-and instructive.

 

[Fervent]

Christianity understands that faith can exist without love and so fleshes out the concept accurately:
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

Faith is the beginning; it opens the door to love because it opens the door to God. So the righteous most certainly will live by faith. But faith doesn't guarantee love and without love we haven't yet arrived. If the doctrine of Sola Fide insisted on this, that we're saved only by a faith that loves, or that leads to love, then I would have less problem with it. But it doesn't. SF adherents would be all over the board in consideration of such a concept, many rejecting it out of hand. And yet love is the heart and soul of the Christian faith, and the very definition of full justice or righteousness for man. If you want to add the term "alone" to any word associated with salvation, "Sola Caritas" would be far more accurate-and instructive.

I'm a little confused how you can say this. Would you mind explaining how you define faith? How can one have faith without love? And I don't believe you're using that quote appropriately, especially considering the entire point of the passage is to direct people away from self-effort and into faith as the path of righteousness.(You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.)

 

[fhansen]

I'm a little confused how you can say this. Would you mind explaining how you define faith? How can one have faith without love?

Ok. Faith is the beginning. It pleases God immensely because in finally places us into right stead and order with Him, and in a basic harmony with the universe/creation. To believe in God’s existence, alone, is profound, even if creation declares this by virtue of its beauty and order and complexity. But while that kind of reasoning gives “motives of credibility”, we certainly cannot come to believe in the God whom Christ revealed apart from grace: a God of goodness, mercy, trustworthiness, gentleness, patience, love. And while Paul and James treat faith, hope, and love as separate items, separate virtues, there are certainly stirrings of all three already in our first encounters with God, as we turn in faith to Him. Some historical teachings I’m familiar with identify those virtues as the basic supernatural gifts given, with faith being intellectual assent, hope meaning trust and even confidence in God’s promises, and love being the ultimate definition of righteousness for man, that which perfects and truly binds us to Him and would guarantee obedience. If Adam had it in Eden, obedience would’ve flowed naturally. He wasn’t ready yet.

Anyway, we often combine the virtues, especially faith and hope, and that's fine but ultimately full-blown love is the goal. God’s purposes are more than simply to place a number of otherwise worthless wretches in heaven, and damn the rest, but to produce something, something great, something better than He began with. And that something is produced as we participate in it, all three gifts also being human choices. In a created being made in God’s image, possessing free will, only love can finally guarantee order and peace and sinlessness in God’s creation.

And I don't believe you're using that quote appropriately, especially considering the entire point of the passage is to direct people away from self-effort and into faith as the path of righteousness.(You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.)

Why should it have anything to do with the law?

 

[Fervent]

Ok. Faith is the beginning. It pleases God immensely because in finally places us into right stead and order with Him, and in a basic harmony with the universe/creation. To believe in God’s existence, alone, is profound, even if creation declares this by virtue of its beauty and order and complexity. But while that kind of reasoning gives “motives of credibility”, we certainly cannot come to believe in the God whom Christ revealed apart from grace: a God of goodness, mercy, trustworthiness, gentleness, patience, love. And while Paul and James treat faith, hope, and love as separate items, separate virtues, there are certainly stirrings of all three already in our first encounters with God, as we turn in faith to Him. Some historical teachings I’m familiar with identify those virtues as the basic supernatural gifts given, with faith being intellectual assent, hope meaning trust and even confidence in God’s promises, and love being the ultimate definition of righteousness for man, that which perfects and truly binds us to Him and would guarantee obedience. If Adam had it in Eden, obedience would’ve flowed naturally. He wasn’t ready yet.

Anyway, we often combine the virtues, especially faith and hope, and that's fine but ultimately full-blown love is the goal. God’s purposes are more than simply to place a number of otherwise worthless wretches in heaven, and damn the rest, but to produce something, something great, something better than He began with. And that something is produced as we participate in it, all three gifts also being human choices. In a created being made in God’s image, possessing free will, only love can finally guarantee order and peace and sinlessness in God’s creation.

Why should it have anything to do with the law?

Faith is not just "the beginning" it is the very thing that the righteous live by.
Habakkuk 2:4b
the righteous shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:38
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Living by faith produces love not from the interior of the person but through an overflowing of the filling of the Spirit. Faith is the beginning and the end of it all, the very lifeblood of the believer.

 

[fhansen]

Faith is not just "the beginning" it is the very thing that the righteous live by.
Habakkuk 2:4b
the righteous shall live by his faith.
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:38
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Living by faith produces love not from the interior of the person but through an overflowing of the filling of the Spirit. Faith is the beginning and the end of it all, the very lifeblood of the believer.

Faith doesn't necessarily lead to love-and faith without love is, and makes us, nothing. The reason that faith without works is dead is simply because faith without love is dead. Love acts, for the good of others, by its nature. We don't obtain that love apart from Christ, but obtain it and express it we must. Faith is essential, but still the beginning and foundation, not the end. And love is produced and grown by the Sprit interiorly in man as we cooperate with that work of His. Again, both faith and love are gifts, and choices. Either way, it's not enough to say, "I believe", critical as that step is.

We're save by faith: via faith, "through and on the basis of faith" Phil 3. Without faith we won't be saved. Faith is the more than belief. It's the establishment of a basic relationship with God that human righteousness is based on and sourced from. Love is the realized consummation of faith and hope.

 

[Fervent]

Faith doesn't necessarily lead to love-and faith without love is, and makes us, nothing. The reason that faith without works is dead is simply because faith without love is dead. Love acts, for the good of others, by its nature. We don't obtain that love apart from Christ, but obtain it and express it we must. Faith is essential, but still the beginning and foundation, not the end. And love is produced and grown by the Sprit interiorly in man as we cooperate with that work of His. Again, both faith and love are gifts, and choices. Either way, it's not enough to say, "I believe", critical as that step is.

I don't believe you're working with a Biblical definition of faith, as love and righteousness are hardly seperable and as the Scripture I presented state righteousness and living by faith are essentially synonymous. So what do you mean when you say "faith?"

 

[fhansen]

I don't believe you're working with a Biblical definition of faith, as love and righteousness are hardly seperable and as the Scripture I presented state righteousness and living by faith are essentially synonymous. So what do you mean when you say "faith?"

Faith is one element of man's justice or righteousness. It cannot stand on its own, alone.

 

[Fervent]

Faith is one element of man's justice or righteousness. It cannot stand on its own, alone.

I'm aware that is your position, simply stating it adds nothing to the discussion at this point. But again, how are you defining faith?

 

[fhansen]

I'm aware that is your position, simply stating it adds nothing to the discussion at this point. But again, how are you defining faith?

I'll quote from previous posts here and add some more.

Faith is "trusting in God." It's to "believe in God’s existence", and in His "goodness, mercy, trustworthiness, gentleness, patience, love."

"Faith is more than belief. It's the establishment of a basic relationship with God that human righteousness is based on and sourced from." It's "adherence" to God as has been said. Faith is belief and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ who reveals the true God and His will by every word and deed, most particularly and dramatically by His sacrificial death on the cross-followed by His Resurrection.

"And righteousness is way more than only faith or trusting in God, as if faith is the end-all equivalent of righteousness for man, or replaces the need for it. Love wears that crown, not faith." But without faith that righteousness will not come:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

And as I've said many times, faith is both a gift, and a human act/choice.

 

[Fervent]

I'll quote from previous posts here and add some more.

Faith is "trusting in God." It's to "believe in God’s existence", and in His "goodness, mercy, trustworthiness, gentleness, patience, love."

"Faith is more than belief. It's the establishment of a basic relationship with God that human righteousness is based on and sourced from." It's "adherence" to God as has been said. Faith is belief and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ who reveals the true God and His will by every word and deed, most particularly and dramatically by His sacrificial death on the cross-followed by His Resurrection.

"And righteousness is way more than only faith or trusting in God, as if faith is the end-all equivalent of righteousness for man, or replaces the need for it. Love wears that crown, not faith." But without faith that righteousness will not come:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

And as I've said many times, faith is both a gift, and a human act/choice.

You're close, but not entirely there. Faith isn't simply believing in God's existence(or any other proposition). Faith is action as much as it is belief. When Abraham offered Isaac, that was faith. When David stood against Goliath, that was faith. Faith is listening to and doing what God says, as James says "You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete." It is not faith to believe that the ship will weather the storms, faith is getting in the boat.

 

[fhansen]

You took those passages to try to compare faith, as in the saving faith that is common to all believers, with love and demonstrate that love is the superior virtue. Now, as we are in agreement that what is being discussed is the "gift of faith" that is given to select individuals within the body it is inappropriate to cite those passages to speak of the faith we are saved by

No, we are not in agreement there. Faith is a supernatural gift either way. Some may have more of it but its the same.

 

[Fervent]

No, we are not in agreement there. Faith is a supernatural gift either way. Some may have more of it but its the same.

Ah, so then why does Paul list it among the gifts that are given separately? Was he confused?

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

 

[fhansen]

Ah, so then why does Paul list it among the gifts that are given separately? Was he confused?

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

Ok. For one thing, as I mentioned, believing in a creator-God is still quite different from believing in a God who-is-love, a personal God who's trustworthy, merciful, kind, goodness itself and who wants to have relationship with us. That God, who died on a cross for our sins and rose again from the dead, is not a God we can arrive at strictly by reason. Revelation, to know about this God, together with grace, to believe in this God, are required. So, IOW, faith in our God is a gift, even as it's also a choice.

And faith, as well as hope and love, can exist in us to varying degrees. We can grow stronger in any of them-and should, in fact. The church in the past has taught that we're given the gift of faith in order to turn to God to begin with, and then, as a result, faith, together with the other virtues, is increased even more. And if God wants to give someone an extra boost, an intense zeal to spread the gospel, for His purposes, then such would constitute the gift of faith listed in 1 Cor 12 IMO.

 

[Fervent]

Ok. For one thing, as I mentioned, believing in a creator-God is still quite different from believing in a God who-is-love, a personal God who's trustworthy, merciful, kind, goodness itself and who wants to have relationship with us. That God, who died on a cross for our sins and rose again from the dead, is not a God we can arrive at strictly by reason. Revelation, to know about this God, together with grace, to believe in this God, are required. So, IOW, faith in our God is a gift, even as it's also a choice.

And faith, as well as hope and love, can exist in us to varying degrees. We can grow stronger in any of them-and should, in fact. The church in the past has taught that we're given the gift of faith in order to turn to God to begin with, and then, as a result, faith, together with the other virtues, is increased even more. And if God wants to give someone an extra boost, an intense zeal to spread the gospel, for His purposes, then such would constitute the gift of faith listed in 1 Cor 12 IMO.

I'm not sure what your purpose is in the first paragraph, nor how it relates to the question at hand. The issue with 1 Cor 12 is the list of things given are not things that are given to all but in different degrees, but things that are given to individuals as a special portion. The entire premise of 1 Cor 12 is that each of us has unique strengths and weaknesses that are divided for the edification of the body and we should not say "I have faith, it is better than your wisdom," but to supplement each other with the gifts we are given. This is a different thing than the common faith that we are expected to live by.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not sure what your purpose is in the first paragraph, nor how it relates to the question at hand. The issue with 1 Cor 12 is the list of things given are not things that are given to all but in different degrees, but things that are given to individuals as a special portion. The entire premise of 1 Cor 12 is that each of us has unique strengths and weaknesses that are divided for the edification of the body and we should not say "I have faith, it is better than your wisdom," but to supplement each other with the gifts we are given. This is a different thing than the common faith that we are expected to live by.

IDK. I thought you were distinguishing between a faith such as that referred to in Rom 1:19-20 as opposed to faith as a supernatural gift. And I'm only saying that all Christian faith is necessarily a supernatural gift.