Revelation About the Book of James

Guojing said:

By this I guess you are taking option 3, which is

You can take it as Paul is saying justification before God, which is faith only (abstract). But James is talking about justification before Man, which requires work (concrete)?

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How about a faith that is concrete before God and man?

DM25 said:

The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

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Not all of Israel is Jewish. James can be resolved without getting into that anyway. Here is how...

Paul>> "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

James>> Faith without works is dead, being alone.

Me>> We have to hear God and then act on what we hear. That's it... faith isn't belief... one can believe something and not have heard God. But faith is specifically hearing God and then action follows. Just go read the great faith chapter... Hebrews 11. Noach heard God and built the ark, and that is faith. Moses heard God and then held out the rod, that is faith. Abraham heard God and then moved to a foreign land... again, that is faith. Each example has one hearing and then acting.

So all James is saying is... if you really heard from God, there should be action that accompanies what you heard. If God told you He would deliver you... then you stand in expectation of His deliverance but even just standing is an action because it is the result of having heard God. We hear and do... that is faith.

Tone said:

How about a faith that is concrete before God and man?

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Well, for one thing, God can see you heart and your thoughts but Man cannot. So for man, you might need to show with works.

James gave some examples of that in chapter 2, that forms the basis of my option 3 way of handling James

DM25 said:

The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

Click to expand...

James is not a prophetic book. He was speaking of salvation in the second chapter, as can be gleaned from the thesis at the beginning of the passage, where he introduces a hypothetical man who has supposedly real faith, but has no works. James then asks "Can faith save him?" We know from this that the rest of the following passage is addressing the question of whether faith without works can save, because that is the entire point of the passage existing.

What Paul is railing against is not being justified by works together with faith, but against works of the law apart from faith, relying on oneself to somehow earn a place in heaven when the true salvation is a relationship with Christ and deep intimate knowledge of God (John 17). Paul tells us straight at the beginning of Romans that we are judged according to our works, saying "the Lord will render unto each man according to his works. To those who, by perseverance in well doing, seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal Life." He repeats the same sentiment later on in the same passage. Nothing that comes after overturns this statement. Rather, Romans shows us HOW we can find ourselves on the right side of that equation in Romans 2. We do so by living in Christ.

DM25 said:

For by grace are ye saved through faith;

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......for by grace

Through faith....

Not grace alone
Not faith alone.

You still think faith is a thing you have..??

Can you show it to me?
Maybe you could post a photo of it?

Of course you cannot .its not a thing..
Its the obedient action you take when you truly believe what God has graciously done for us through Christ's suffering death and resurrection..
Faith obeys the good news... It takes action.

Dont think faith is an action ..read heb 11. The faith chapter..
All the accounts of faith are accounts of what people DID because they believed God.

Because they believed him they took action

DM25 said:

The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

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And this is how Dispenationalism denies the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

DM25 said:

I'm ignoring all posts who teach works-based salvation from now on. Including the ones on top who I missed who try saying we are not justified by faith alone before God but by works as well by our faith which is another way of saying works salvation, heresy. I'm only entertaining posts who understand the real gospel and know we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. I would agree with you works-based salvationists, but then we would both be wrong. Do not pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ. Scripture is clear as day we are not saved by any works, regardless of if you think it comes from faith or not. Works-based salvation is heresy and you guys are deceived.

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Well, unfortunately yours is the novel gospel DM25, and one that has caused much confusion in the Christian world. It essentially replaces God's eternal call to man to return to justice with some kind of twisted license to ignore that call. Man gets what he wants-salvation without even having to change! Except for the poor souls who're hell-bound that is. "Oh, but I believe, some Sola Fide adherents will cry-and that makes me more worthy than them. Even if God is 100% responsible for whether or not one is given and even accepts faith."

Wow. Ignore all the passages that make it clear that God covets our willing active participation, and increasingly so as we walk with Him, for our own good, and warns against failure to do so. Faith is a call to righteousness, the right pathway to it, but God's way, not man's way. It's not an escape from that obligation. It provides the means to authentic holiness, most fully defined by the term love, and we're expected to do the best we can in achieving this as we're given the grace to accomplish it, our fruit bearing witness to it.

mark kennedy said:

Again with the quote mining, would it be too much to ask you to stop and do an exposition every once in a while?

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Again, you have never agreed with a truth in the Bible based on a list of verses that all say the same thing? I find that hard to believe. If you disagree with the list of verses I gave to support my belief, then it is up to you and not me to prove what the context is saying. I know what the context says. But how is your interpretation on those verses superior to mine?

Please take note that when somebody posts a list of verses that supports their wrong conclusion, I take a few of those verses and show how they are taking them out of context. I don't expect them to quote the context. That would be endless series of posts if they did that. Anyways, if you disagree with the list of verses I put forth, then you need to explain them and not me. For they all are pretty clear in what they say at face value. So the ball is now in your court.

Side Note:

Please take note that I did answer your question on James 2 in regards on "What are works of faith?" I pointed out the context of the chapter to defend my view of that answer. As for expositions: I have done deep studies on a particular topic before and have explained a belief in more ways than one to defend it. But I don't think you would agree with all of my Expositions. The key here is not if one can do an Exposition, the key is can their Exposition be supported by the context, and the light of the whole counsel of God's Word.

For example: At one time in the past, I had found a long list of verses in support of Total Depravity (Which is a doctrine that you no doubt believe). But as time grew on, I discovered other verses that appeared to contradict Total Depravity. So the Scriptures needed to be harmonized. The Bible has to breath as a whole and it cannot contradict itself.

Guojing said:

Well, for one thing, God can see you heart and your thoughts but Man cannot. So for man, you might need to show with works.

James gave some examples of that in chapter 2, that forms the basis of my option 3 way of handling James

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This interpretation does not work in light of what James says. James 1:21 says, "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21). This is in context to obedience to God's Word (See James 1:22). We have to receive the engrafted word lay aside filthiness (sin) which is able to save our souls. James also says, "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." (James 1:26). So if a believer does not hold back their tongue in saying bad things, their religion is in vain. Again, an action is tied to our faith or religion. James also says, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27). This is not before man but before God. It is an action of pure religion and they are actions within our faith.

James in James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? No. Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. Even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). But the faith of demons do not save. In fact, James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Are we justified by faith alone with men? Surely not. We are justified by faith in God for salvation.

sculleywr said:

James is not a prophetic book. He was speaking of salvation in the second chapter, as can be gleaned from the thesis at the beginning of the passage, where he introduces a hypothetical man who has supposedly real faith, but has no works. James then asks "Can faith save him?" We know from this that the rest of the following passage is addressing the question of whether faith without works can save, because that is the entire point of the passage existing.

What Paul is railing against is not being justified by works together with faith, but against works of the law apart from faith, relying on oneself to somehow earn a place in heaven when the true salvation is a relationship with Christ and deep intimate knowledge of God (John 17). Paul tells us straight at the beginning of Romans that we are judged according to our works, saying "the Lord will render unto each man according to his works. To those who, by perseverance in well doing, seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal Life." He repeats the same sentiment later on in the same passage. Nothing that comes after overturns this statement. Rather, Romans shows us HOW we can find ourselves on the right side of that equation in Romans 2. We do so by living in Christ.

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Hello Joey. I remember you from Christian Chat.
Not sure if you remember me (Note: I went by the same username there).
Anyways, it is good to see you here.
Hope you are doing well.

mark kennedy said:

Again with the quote mining, would it be too much to ask you to stop and do an exposition every once in a while?

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Let's take one verse out of my list and look at the context.

James 1:12 says,

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

Obedience. We have to endure temptation and the result is the crown of life. The crown of life here is salvation. We see this crown of life mentioned elsewhere in Scripture and it also is tied to salvation. For why call it the crown of life if it is not dealing with our salvation?

Anyways, my normal reading of James 1:12 is defended by a normal reading on James 1:21.
It says this:

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

It says to lay apart (lay aside) filthiness and naughtiness (Which is sin) and receive the Word of God (obedience to God's Word) which is able to save our souls. So again, the idea here is that resisting sin (temptation), you can receive the crown of life (salvation) is in the same line of thinking said here in James 1:21. This thought continues as you continue to read. Even in James 2, he says that if we have respect of persons we break the Royal Law of loving our neighbor and we break all of God's laws by doing so. This is where James then drives home his point that such a faith would be like that of the faith of demons (James 2:19). For a true genuine faith always is proven true by "works of faith." For it is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). A true faith is defined by a faith that works (James 2:18). Otherwise it is not a true faith. The point here is that actions are a part of our faith which is a part of our salvation.

But what about Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:8-9?

Well, Paul was talking about the entrance gate and or the foundation of our faith. We are initially saved by God's grace (Which is a gift or faith in Jesus for salvation). We are ultimately saved by the grace of God because if a believer sins, they do not do a work to get clean, but they confess of their sins to be forgiven again (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). But Paul was not referring to Sanctification that comes later in Ephesians 2:8-9. He was fighting against Works Alone Salvationism that did not include God's grace. Paul was in support of Sanctification as the next step or stage in the salvation process (See: Titus 1:16, Titus 2:11-12, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13).

mark kennedy said:

For a very good reason, which is why I know for a fact James is not talking about the same works. The works James is talking about in James 2 couldn't be more clear from the context, if you ever bother reading it in context.

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James 2:26 is pretty clear on the fact that it contradicts Sola Fide.

Al Masihi said:

James 2:26 is pretty clear on the fact that it contradicts Sola Fide.

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No it doesn't, it comes after saving faith. But you would have to learn the doctrine and the book to realise that.

mark kennedy said:

No it doesn't, it comes after saving faith. But you would have to learn the doctrine and the book to realise that.

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It also goes along with faith, faith can’t be justified alone according to James.

mark kennedy said:

No it doesn't, it comes after saving faith. But you would have to learn the doctrine and the book to realise that.

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Many try to say that James 2:24 is talking about justified by works before men, and not before God. But nowhere does the chapter say this. Also, if James 2:24 is talking about being justified by works before men (and not God), then that means we are justified by faith in men. For James 2:24 says,

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

We are justified by faith only in God.
So if we are to be consistent in reading this verse, we have to realize that we are also justified by works before God and not men because nobody is justified by faith in men.

Side Note:

What about Romans 4:1-2?

1 'What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. " (Romans 4:1-2).

Verse 2 is saying that if Abraham as justified by "works alone" without God's grace through faith. It is talking about the Justification process (by which is how we gain entrance to salvation in Christ). It is not talking about the next step or stage in the salvation process.

Verse 2 is also talking in the negative. It is saying that if Abraham were justified by works alone without God's grace, he would appear to be able to glory before men, but he could not glory or boast of his works before God because he would still need his past slate of sins to be forgiven.

DM25 said:

The book of James confused me a lot. Everywhere in scripture it says we are saved by faith alone, not works, so I got confused about James 2. I saw some preachers twisting scripture in a way that still did not make sense... Saying things like being saved from man and stuff like that.

So I prayed to God for him to explain to me, and I figured it out! The book of James is talking to the 12 tribes of Israel (James 1:1). The 12 tribes of Israels are also mentioned in the book of Revelation. James is actually a prophetic book, talking to the Jews in the last days during tribulation. This is shown in James 5:3, literally saying that this is for them during the "last days". And we know during the time of Jacob's trouble, the Jews are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. This includes enduring until the end, avoiding the mark, and keeping the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). So this book is not for the church, but for the 12 tribes of Israel, the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble and tribulation in the last days. It was very eye opening when I realized this and it made a lot of sense.

That's why its important to rightly divide and pay attention who the message is for and really read what it is saying, rather than make a complete theology from one verse in the bible.

Click to expand...

Yikes! This is heresy. I say more study, less reliance on a god-given interpretation. The Holy Spirit helps us to persevere and study to understand the intent of the NT writers. The are the interpreters to the Church.

Salvation is by faith and not works (Eph. 2:8-9). Justification before God is by faith and not works (Romans 4:2-8). Justification of a claim (James 2:14) before men is justified (vindicated) by the works he produces (2:24).

James was not contradicting Paul, nor speaking of some future time when salvation will be about works for the Jews. God forbid that's why they experienced the hardening in the first place (Rom. 9:32).

Jews will enter the millennial kingdom just as Gentiles—forgiven through faith.

Al Masihi said:

It also goes along with faith, faith can’t be justified alone according to James.

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James is talking to Jewish Christians that don't seem to have a problem with a works righteousness, because he never mentions it like the book of Galatians and Hebrews. He makes it clear in the first chapter he is speaking to believers, he does speak of salvation being a free gift of God:

They appear to have a problem with incomplete repentance:

This group was struggling with some kind of licentiousness, they had been born again and had the word of God planted in their hearts. James is telling them how to navigate temptation, to avoid the hazards of a believer. There is nothing here about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith because they already knew that, they were already believers. Paul goes through a lot of the same things with the Corinthians, they liked to say all things are permissible (1 Cor. 6:11-12; 1 Cor. 10:22-24)

Justified comes from a word in the Greek that can be translated 'just, fair right', it can also be translated 'justified', it can also be translated righteousness. James isn't talking about the justification that comes at conversion, they already have that. James is telling them to go on to maturity, the time when the believer manifests complete repentance and starts to be a fruitful minister.

Now this is not controversial, I think it's a popular discussion because guys like you get to argue it in circles with these pedantic one liners. Just a word of warning, don't trifle with essential doctrine. There is nothing here that is all that hard to understand if you bother to actually learn the doctrine of justification by grace through faith and read the book of James in it's proper context. This business of chasing works are needed for salvation is absurd, if you follow the context these people have been Christians for quite some time and know better then to act the way they are.

mark kennedy said:

James is talking to Jewish Christians that don't seem to have a problem with a works righteousness, because he never mentions it like the book of Galatians and Hebrews. He makes it clear in the first chapter he is speaking to believers, he does speak of salvation being a free gift of God:

Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:16-18)
​

They appear to have a problem with incomplete repentance:

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:21)
​

This group was struggling with some kind of licentiousness, they had been born again and had the word of God planted in their hearts. James is telling them how to navigate temptation, to avoid the hazards of a believer. There is nothing here about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith because they already knew that, they were already believers. Paul goes through a lot of the same things with the Corinthians, they liked to say all things are permissible (1 Cor. 6:11-12; 1 Cor. 10:22-24)

Justified comes from a word in the Greek that can be translated 'just, fair right', it can also be translated 'justified', it can also be translated righteousness. James isn't talking about the justification that comes at conversion, they already have that. James is telling them to go on to maturity, the time when the believer manifests complete repentance and starts to be a fruitful minister.

Now this is not controversial, I think it's a popular discussion because guys like you get to argue it in circles with these pedantic one liners. Just a word of warning, don't trifle with essential doctrine. There is nothing here that is all that hard to understand if you bother to actually learn the doctrine of justification by grace through faith and read the book of James in it's proper context. This business of chasing works are needed for salvation is absurd, if you follow the context these people have been Christians for quite some time and know better then to act the way they are.

​

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Right, then why did Jesus teach salvation by works as a part of our salvation?

Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love God (including some details) and to love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28).

John said (after the cross) that if we hate our brother we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

I honestly do not know how you understand these verses.
They are entirely nonsensical in light of your belief here.
One has to do double backflip twists on these verses in order to make them say something different. A normal straight forward reading of these verses clearly teaches that one is not justified by just having a belief alone in Jesus.

mark kennedy said:

James is talking to Jewish Christians that don't seem to have a problem with a works righteousness, because he never mentions it like the book of Galatians and Hebrews. He makes it clear in the first chapter he is speaking to believers, he does speak of salvation being a free gift of God:

Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:16-18)
​

They appear to have a problem with incomplete repentance:

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:21)
​

This group was struggling with some kind of licentiousness, they had been born again and had the word of God planted in their hearts. James is telling them how to navigate temptation, to avoid the hazards of a believer. There is nothing here about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith because they already knew that, they were already believers. Paul goes through a lot of the same things with the Corinthians, they liked to say all things are permissible (1 Cor. 6:11-12; 1 Cor. 10:22-24)

Justified comes from a word in the Greek that can be translated 'just, fair right', it can also be translated 'justified', it can also be translated righteousness. James isn't talking about the justification that comes at conversion, they already have that. James is telling them to go on to maturity, the time when the believer manifests complete repentance and starts to be a fruitful minister.

Now this is not controversial, I think it's a popular discussion because guys like you get to argue it in circles with these pedantic one liners. Just a word of warning, don't trifle with essential doctrine. There is nothing here that is all that hard to understand if you bother to actually learn the doctrine of justification by grace through faith and read the book of James in it's proper context. This business of chasing works are needed for salvation is absurd, if you follow the context these people have been Christians for quite some time and know better then to act the way they are.

​

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Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" when he refers to be justified by the Law (See Galatians 5:2 as one example). The Old Law is no more. If one believes they are saved first by being circumcised, they will think that they are saved by Law Alone and not by faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did. Paul was not speaking against the words of Jesus in regards to godliness. In 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See Titus 2:11-12).

If salvation was in having a belief alone in Jesus, then one does not need to worry about sin and they can be licentious or turn God's grace into a license for immorality. Of course you believe that true believers are regenerated and forced to live a holy by God, but nowhere does the Bible teach that. We are told in Scripture, to endure, overcome, keep yourself in the love of God, etc.; But you criticized how my quote of these verses was "quote mining" (i.e. they were verses quoted of out of context). But you never gave an explanation or defense on why these verses do not mean what they plainly say.

@mark kennedy

Also, I do not care how holy you think people are forced to be by a spiritual regeneration. If they are told that they can sin and still be saved on some level because they are saved alone by having a belief in Jesus Christ, then they are going to minimize sin on some level and justify some kind of grievous sin. For if there was no law restricting the speed limit on highways, then more people would speed and get into accidents. Not everyone is going to be sensible or respectful with the law. It is the punishment of the Law that keep people in line. But you disagree with that line of thinking, though.