Revelation About the Book of James

[Calminian]

You cant save yourself, agreed? If works save us then they must be Gods works, i assume.

Yes, works are not even possible apart from regeneration and salvation. Paul says God is the source of our works: Eps. 2:10.

 

[DM25]

Taking the mark the does appear to be an unpardonable sin at that time. It could be evidence of a hardened heart that rejects the gospel to the point of blasphemy, meaning only true Christians will be able to resist. They rest, at that time, will have lost their window of opportunity.

This is compatible with many Scriptures that warn that there will not always be time to accept Jesus. There will be a time when it's too late. Heb. 4 gives good metaphors for this.

But to leap from that and say tribulation survivors must earn their way into God's favor, is works salvation and a false gospel. It is not true now, and never will be.



I have no idea what you're talking about here. Again, I think you've misunderstood what people are telling you. Bearing fruit from faith does not mean you become perfect nor earn anything with those works. Works never earn anything regarding salvation.

And I would say your 90% is off. 100% can't do perfect works.

Something is off. You're missing what I and others are trying to explain to you, and getting defensive. The only one promoting a works salvation (albeit in the future) is you. Simply saying that faith produces some fruit is not the same as saying that fruit saves us. Works merely display your belief to others.

In your future view, works are the cause of salvation. In the historic Christian view, faith is the cause of salvation (for all time). Faith is also the cause of works, which, in turn, cause a good testimony (but never cause salvation).

Believing is not a work. And people who add works to salvation are unbelievers. Most people on this website I notices believe in some kind of works as part of salvation.

In the end times tribulation, there will be works involved to get saved as well as scripture clearly states. Only those who endure until the end shall be saved... Enduring is a work. Scripture clearly says this. This is during the short great tribulation. What you said is some Calvinist view that truly saved people won't have their hearts hardened and be deceived or some stuff life that. But scripture says EVERYONE will be tested and everyone will have to make the choice to endure or die for Christ or take the mark, these are works. We as a church won't be here for that. We will be raptured up with Christ.

 

[Guojing]

This would be false teaching, because it connects works to salvation.

Also false teaching, applying works to salvation and the ability to lose your salvation.

This is what I though originally. But after reading it, it didn't make sense to me. It did not specifically say someone is justified by man, it is only an assumption. And the most confusing verse of all "Can his faith save him?" implying his faith actually can't save him (direct contradiction to other verses of Abraham's faith being counted for righteousness). And this is not related to the faith saving the man in need, it makes no sense on how the sentence is made. The whole book just does not say anything about being justified before man, but really a general justification by works and by faith.

This is the truth. It makes the most sense. Because the Jews were not justified by works and faith, it was always faith credited as righteousness. They were not saved by the law but the law was a schoolmaster for things to come. But it's different in the end times, when one will not only be justified by faith alone but by faith and works. As mentioned before, avoiding the mark, enduring until the end, keeping God's commandments, etc are all needed to survive and to get saved in the last days. So this book makes perfect sense addressing the twelve tribes of Israel during Jacob's trouble. It is a prophetic book. Talking about "count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;" and everything else talking about the tribulation in the last days for Israel. It's also near the end of the bible, it's definitely for the Jews during Jacob's trouble. There is no other way to interpret this to make sense. It made perfect sense when I realized this, it is for Israel in the last days.

Well, to each of us, what we regard as truth can be for many good reasons.

In Internet debates, people rarely if ever, change their minds about such doctrine, so I am learning to just try to understand different viewpoints, and try to understand why each of them have good reasons to arrive at their respective viewpoints.

 

[Calminian]

Believing is not a work. .....

Correct. Nothing in my statement said otherwise.

This is again, why I believe you're not understanding the arguments put before you. You've got a concept lodged in your mind, and you won't let it go. You don't understand basic Christian soteriology, and it appears you never did. You had a straw man in your head, and have been knocking it down, but it was always a misrepresentation.

Yes, faith is not a work. All Christians agree on this. Faith is non-meritorious. Works are. That's why faith must be reckoned by God in order to save us. Works are not reckoned, they are meritorious in and of themselves. They do not have the ability to earn anything. Romans 4:1-8.

 

[Barney2.0]

James is talking to Jewish Christians that don't seem to have a problem with a works righteousness, because he never mentions it like the book of Galatians and Hebrews. He makes it clear in the first chapter he is speaking to believers, he does speak of salvation being a free gift of God:

Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:16-18)
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They appear to have a problem with incomplete repentance:

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. (James 1:21)
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This group was struggling with some kind of licentiousness, they had been born again and had the word of God planted in their hearts. James is telling them how to navigate temptation, to avoid the hazards of a believer. There is nothing here about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith because they already knew that, they were already believers. Paul goes through a lot of the same things with the Corinthians, they liked to say all things are permissible (1 Cor. 6:11-12; 1 Cor. 10:22-24)

Justified comes from a word in the Greek that can be translated 'just, fair right', it can also be translated 'justified', it can also be translated righteousness. James isn't talking about the justification that comes at conversion, they already have that. James is telling them to go on to maturity, the time when the believer manifests complete repentance and starts to be a fruitful minister.

Now this is not controversial, I think it's a popular discussion because guys like you get to argue it in circles with these pedantic one liners. Just a word of warning, don't trifle with essential doctrine. There is nothing here that is all that hard to understand if you bother to actually learn the doctrine of justification by grace through faith and read the book of James in it's proper context. This business of chasing works are needed for salvation is absurd, if you follow the context these people have been Christians for quite some time and know better then to act the way they are.

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I think your attacking a strawman the problem isn’t through salvation through sanctified faith and grace, it’s with salvation being through sanctified grace and faith alone, which James specifically refutes when he says faith without works is dead which you don’t seem to be addressing. Nothing in the book of James teaches Sola Fide. If even the creator of of the doctrine Sola Fide knew the book contradicted it then who are you to argue that it doesn’t?

 

[Guojing]

Isnt it likely that James is describing fruit of the Spirit? Those are Gods works arent they?

Unlikely, because to the Jews, faith and works are actually inseparable. The book of James was written before the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. And even in Acts 21, we read the following

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Do you notice James response there about the importance of Jews keeping the law after they are saved? So when you claim that James 2 is talking about fruit of the Spirit, I think that is reading into the Bible.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think your attacking a strawman the problem isn’t through salvation through sanctified faith and grace, it’s with salvation being through sanctified grace and faith alone, which James specifically refutes when he says faith without works is dead which you don’t seem to be addressing. Nothing in the book of James teaches Sola Fide. If even the creator of of the doctrine Sola Fide knew the book contradicted it then who are you to argue that it doesn’t?

Nothing in your posts address James and the topic is not solo Fide. You just keep repeating the same pedantic rhetoric, in circles, regardless. James doesn't refute solo Fide, he mentions it twice in chapter 1 and moves on. All you have is a Latin clutch phrase and a couple of tired lines. I'm always a bit disturbed at how caeless some people can be with essential doctrine.

 

[Calminian]

...Nothing in the book of James teaches Sola Fide....

You're right in one sense, not directly. But that's because James isn't discussing the idea of justification before God at all. He's speaking of the vindication (before men) of the hypothetical claim made in James 2:14—if one says he has faith. He's also speaking of a false faith that is fake, and letting us know how to recognized it.

 

[Grip Docility]

You misunderstand the importance of the grace of God. The grace of God is what is offered and that is through Jesus Christ, and is always a free gift.

The reconciliation was established by Jesus Christ in His blood and that was between Him and His Father. This was above and beyond any human interaction at any level. This divine reconciliation is the foundation of the Christian gospel, that reconciliation grants the very gift of faith and salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

Spoiler