Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[sparow]

Seems to me That you are the one making the versus fight against each other.

If your view is correct, who would you say has power and authority over and above Jesus Christ on earth today?

Here’s the reality:

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his present and total rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.

Please answer this, was Jesus WRONG or RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS?

I say He was right... you seem to believe He was wrong.

Care to Clarify?

You appear to be interpreting God's decision to permit his creatures to choose the gospel or face hell with the notion that Jesus is not Presently ruling the world, and does not presently have all the world under his control.

That's wrong. Go read all the verses I listed again:

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

And note that even in the book of Job, satan is an agent of God, not a god himself. (Read Job ch 1-2).

If you read Job 1&2, satan is not god but only an angel that carried out a specific role for God in the Old Covenant age: accusing the Hebrews of their uncovered sins, that they might be judged and receive the curses of the Law. But the New Covenant removed the curse of the Law from God's people (Gal 3:10-13), and thus St. Paul says of the Christian:

"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom 8:32-34)

And John says "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn 5:18)

And Paul says that Jesus, having spoiled principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col 2:15). For, Jesus is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." (Eph 1:20-21)

So, it appears that you are confusing the idea of a presently ruling God with the idea that people have made for themselves substitute things for God that are not gods at all but mere superstitions. There is only ONE God with actual authority and power over the whole world, and it's JESUS:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)[/QUOTE.


I notice you are Catholic; this changes my view of what you are saying. I do not have a problem with the scripture you quote but I derive a different meaning from them than you do.
How do handle Jesus saying this:

John 14:30 (NKJV)
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

The scriptures you quote support a narrative; you seem to want the scriptures to stand alone independent of the narrative.

Jesus was RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS. Jesus was also right when He said, " for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me." and there is no conflict.

You must be joking; do you really think Jesus is the authority behind child molesting priests and all the evil in the world; do you think He is the authority behind the world wars, including the one to come. He is the authority behind that great and terrible day of the Lord of which Revelation is the account of.

 

[sparow]

Seems to me That you are the one making the versus fight against each other.

If your view is correct, who would you say has power and authority over and above Jesus Christ on earth today?

Here’s the reality:

Christ is "above all rule and authority and power and dominion" (Eph 1:19-20); all authorities and powers are subjected to Him (1 Pet 3:22); through His death he destroyed the devil who had the power of death (Heb 2:14); and He is "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5-6). The very purpose that Christ was manifested in the flesh was to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

Christ the King of the world is by his own sovereign plan permitting men some freedom to refuse the gospel and face their damnation. This decree of Christ is *not* to be understood as a lack of his present and total rulership over the world, but rather the sovereign choice of His Majesty.

Please answer this, was Jesus WRONG or RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS?

I say He was right... you seem to believe He was wrong.

Care to Clarify?

You appear to be interpreting God's decision to permit his creatures to choose the gospel or face hell with the notion that Jesus is not Presently ruling the world, and does not presently have all the world under his control.

That's wrong. Go read all the verses I listed again:

Jesus Christ, not satan, is God and King over this world (over all of heaven and earth):

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

And note that even in the book of Job, satan is an agent of God, not a god himself. (Read Job ch 1-2).

If you read Job 1&2, satan is not god but only an angel that carried out a specific role for God in the Old Covenant age: accusing the Hebrews of their uncovered sins, that they might be judged and receive the curses of the Law. But the New Covenant removed the curse of the Law from God's people (Gal 3:10-13), and thus St. Paul says of the Christian:

"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom 8:32-34)

And John says "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn 5:18)

And Paul says that Jesus, having spoiled principalities and powers, made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col 2:15). For, Jesus is "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." (Eph 1:20-21)

So, it appears that you are confusing the idea of a presently ruling God with the idea that people have made for themselves substitute things for God that are not gods at all but mere superstitions. There is only ONE God with actual authority and power over the whole world, and it's JESUS:

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" (Matthew 28:18)

I notice you are Catholic; this changes my view of what you are saying. I do not have a problem with the scripture you quote but I derive a different meaning from them than you do.
How do handle Jesus saying this:

John 14:30 (NKJV)
30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

The scriptures you quote support a narrative; you seem to want the scriptures to stand alone independent of the narrative.

Jesus was RIGHT to claim ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WAS HIS. Jesus was also right when He said, " for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me." and there is no conflict.

You must be joking; do you really think Jesus is the authority behind child molesting priests and all the evil in the world; do you think He is the authority behind the world wars, including the one to come. He is the authority behind that great and terrible day of the Lord of which Revelation is the account of.

 

[Bladerunner]

The blood covenant of Jesus' blood was a covenent between two members of the Godhead. No human can break this covenant.

Could you please post the passage that leads you to believe what you just said?

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

You must know that your theology is upside down relative to mine; Paul is not the issue because people who agree with me use Paul to prove their case. Paul is a forbidden topic, saying bad things about Paul get one kicked of the forum. The difference between Paul and Jimmy Swagger is Paul is more intelligent and knowledgeable and Jimmy has not claimed to have been sent by God.

The truth is, we will all be judged by Paul's gospel. I think then we should know it well.

 

[iamlamad]

I cannot see how? The 70th week is a Messianic covenantal agreement and once God established it through his Messiah what gap could there be after it was started?

Says who?
God says in Zechariah 4 that not by human might or by human power but by my Holy Spirit I will lay the foundation cornerstone of my Temple and my hands will finish it.

So the cornerstone of the Temple had been laid and the Holy Spirit has been building it fir the last 1988 years.

The Man of Sin cannot be qualified as man of sin unless he once had the truth like the son of perdition Judas Isacriot. The people of sin must have been once counted within the Temple of the Holy Spirit before being cast out in the falling away from the faoth/truth in order to serve a lie .

The daily sacrifice is of the Living Stones within the Temple of God who give their bodies as living memorials for Christ.

The separation of the wheat from amongst the Tares within the Temple of God has once believers being cast out as the many sons of perdition.

They have turned out literal for 1988 years and counting.

It will start you say? It had started 1988 years ago.

Yes.

There are spiritual temples and there are physical temples. You are talking spiritual and I am talking physical. No wonder "never the twain shall meet."

John (in the vision) was told to go and measure the temple. Count the number or worshiper IN the temple. Paul said the man of sin would enter the temple and declare that HE is God. Trust the WORD: there is going to be another temple.
Ezekiel wrote about it:

Here is just a snippet:
46:1 Thus saith the Lord God; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

The GAP that Daniel shows us is what I highlighted:
Dan 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Timing words in red. Notice carefully, the first 69 weeks have finished by verse 25. The 70th week does not begin until verse 27.

What is between? Messiah killed. Jerusalem destroyed - with the temple.
Conclusion? Daniel Himself, led by the Holy Spirit TOLD US there would be a gap.

 

[iamlamad]

Could you please post the passage that leads you to believe what you just said?

Blade

I don't think there is a verse that says the New Covenant is between members of the Godhead. But there are verses that tell us in other words.
Phil. 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

These verses tell us that Jesus, the SON was willing to undertake the task of redemption, knowing it would include His own death. They show us that God the Father was very pleased with what He did.

What Jesus did goes all the way back to Abraham the night God put him to sleep and God the Father and the Redeemer (to become the SON) walked between the pieces of the animals in a blood covenant. Abraham was not involved: it was a covenant between two members of the Godhead. I suspect Jesus was 'standing in" for Abraham. God the Father was saying to the SON, representing Abraham: "If you are willing to shed your blood for me - then I am willing to shed my blood for you." I am guessing, for it is not written. But it is typical of blood covenants between men. Then the SON would reply the same. Each was promising they would be willing to die for the other.

The HUGE problem then was that God was Spirit and HAD NO BLOOD TO SHED. The second person of the trinity would have to become man to have blood to shed.

As a young boy in the temple, Jesus reminded His parents that He must be about His Father's business: redemption. Jesus did not make this decision apart from God the FAther and the Holy Spirit: He was SENT - but He came willingly.

In short, God's promise to the Son was this: "anyone who believes in You - in Your death, burial and resurrection and is willing to invite You to be their Lord - then I will forgive their sins and they can live eternally with me. Your blood will wash away their sins.

The HUGE question was: would Jesus death, and spending only three days in hell be enough to pay for the sins of the world? In other words, would the JUSTICE part of God be satisfied? The fact that Jesus ascended back into heaven proves that justice was satisfied.

What is man's side in this covenant? Only believe! But where does the faith come TO BELIEVE? It comes from Him also!

It is a "Diatheke" covenant: where one side does all the giving and the other side does all the receiving!

Strongs:
Diatheke: properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):—covenant, testament.

Mat 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, G1242 which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

"The Greek differentiates between a covenant where one party is the benefactor and the other the recipient (diatheke), and other covenants made between equal parties, where the word SUNTHEKE is used."

This covenant was planned before the world was created:

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How could we as men be a part of a covenant ordained before earth was created?

I am out of time. I hope I have given you something to think about.

 

[iamlamad]

WHat you call God's Harvest of the Church is Jesus retrieving His BRIDE. TheChurch (Body of Christ) not necessarily Gentile but one body of many peoples.

The 144,000 like the Church and the tribulations saints (those who have been beheaded for their faith in Jesus) are of the firstfruits and 1st resurrection.

We also find the Martyred (tribulation) Saints are in Heaven under the Altar asking questions. This happens in Chapter 6:9 or the fifth seal.

Blade

It is a part of God's harvest because the dead are raised, and both living and dead receive resurrection bodies

Sorry, but those martyrs under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs.

 

[sparow]

The truth is, we will all be judged by Paul's gospel. I think then we should know it well.

I will be judged by Jesus in accordance with His teachings and confirmed covenant. Paul has nothing in me.

 

[ToServe]

There are spiritual temples and there are physical temples. You are talking spiritual and I am talking physical. No wonder "never the twain shall meet."

Let me ask you a question then, does the Temple that God said he will start building upon the Cornerstone and to also finish building by his Holy Spirit a spiritual or a physical Temple?

You said in regards to the spiritual and physical that they shall "never the twain shall meet", then what purpose does one have that the other does not have in fulfilling the six conditions of Daniel below?

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Are you implying that the spiritual Temple of the Holy Spirit is unable to meet those requirements in full? Yes/No

So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by human might nor by human power, but by my Holy Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty. “The hands of God have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. (Zechariah 4:6,9)

John (in the vision) was told to go and measure the temple. Count the number or worshiper IN the temple. Paul said the man of sin would enter the temple and declare that HE is God. Trust the WORD: there is going to be another temple.
Ezekiel wrote about it:

I Love the Word for it is Life and Truth to my very existence. The vision given to John is symbolism of how the Holy Spirit Temple of Zechariah 4 is laid out.

John's measuring is a figure of speech for those who have already been redeemed as the firstfruits from the Old Covenant house and in fulfillment to Daniel 12 as Daniel's Old Covenant people who were already in their graves as those crying under the Altar of God (Revelation 6:9) at the fifth seal, the sealing of the 144,000 firstfruits. Paul gives the order in 1 Corinthians 15 as Christ the forerunner to the resurrection, then the firstfruits (144,000) of Revelation 6,7,14, then the Gentile nations that belong to him who make their robes white by the Blood of the Lamb.

The Commission to preach to the Gentiles is after the sealing of the 144,000 (Revelation 14) and then we see that those in the outer court representing the New Covenant Age are the multitude who sing the song of the Lamb, whereas the firstfruits sing the song of Moses and are called the servants of our God, who have the Father's name written on their foreheads which identified them as the firstfruit of the harvest when the Messiah came as promised to Daniel when he would raise them up (Matthew 27:51-53, Ezekiel 37:11-14).

The measured and not measured is a simple phrase to identify those accounted for in the Book of Life as already redeemed and so they now can sing the song that no man can sing, they sing the blues so to speak because they had already been beheaded for their testimony and the ones within the outer court are yet to be accounted for, meaning measured or counted within the inner court, because they have yet to be redeemed from amongst men requiring them to biologically die whilst keeping the faith in Christ as those who belong to him, when Jesus gives them their Crown of Life at his Appearing.

The measuring is not a measure in the sense of measurement systems but simply a phrase to say accounted for and that is all it is trying to convey.

Here is just a snippet:
46:1 Thus saith the Lord God; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

The Prince is Jesus he is the one who provided the sacrifice by his own blood at the threshold of the gate between Heaven (Inner Court) and Earth (Outer Court) and his offering is the six Lambs who symbolize Old Covenant Israel and the one Ram represents the New Covenant Gentile nations. The Olive tree and the Wild Olive tree are the same symbols that point to the Jews (144,000) within the inner measured (accounted for) court of the Old Covenant and the Gentile nations within the yet to be accounted for (not measured) outer court of the New Covenant.

So the Door that is opened on the Seventh Day when the sacrifice of the Prince is offered to the Gentile nations is the Door of Grace and the six days previous to it was before the sacrifice of Christ that opened the door of Grace at the fifth seal. when Daniel's people who were crying under the Altar of God were sealed as the firstfruits of the harvest (Daniel 12).

The Prince is entering from without the Temple as the Royal Priest as pointing to his incarnation and crucifixion offering that opened the door of Grace for the 7th day rest of God that New Testament writers state that they are entering, within the context of Daniel's 70th week which must not have a gap as we are in the 7th day from the Cross until now (Hebrews 4:1-10). The door of Grace has been opened by the Prince from without before he proceeded to enter in the Holy of Holies within the Heavenly sanctuary and the nations that have been flocking are being offered the symbol of the Ram within the 7th day that has no gap. Otherwise, we would not be Christians if there was a gap, get it!

"Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,"

If the NT writers believed that they are entering God's rest day then it is concievable that this is the 7th day mentioned in those verses you presented as the Ram is being offered to the Wild Olive Tree which represents the many Gentile nations who make their robes white by the blood of the Lamb of God (Revelation 7) immediately after the 144,000 firstfruit Old Covenant Saints of the previous 6 days are sealed and accounted for within the inner court and the Prince stands at the door of Grace continually offering his sacrifice to the symbol of the Ram who represent the Gentiles within the 7th day that encompasses the 69.5 to 70 weeks Commission of the Church (Two Witnesses). The Church has been dispensing the golden oil through the two olive trees (Jews and Gentiles) within the commission of preaching the Gospel immediately after the sealing of the 144,000 firstfruits of Revelation 14 when the three Angel messages came from the Cross onwards, at the giving of the Sign of Jonah. To this very day, the Prince stands at the door as he said I stand at the door and knock and so the door of Grace was open from the Cross onwards and was never shut.

If some are saying there is a gap then they are unwittingly implying that the door of grace has been shut for the better part of 1988 years and this means that there are no Christians as there was no sacrifice being offered within the Holy Spirit Temple Construct of God and in this respect they still awaiting a physical temple in order to qualify them as Christians.

The very thought of a physical temple is contrary to the Word of God and is more akin to the erecting of the temple of doom, a temple that has an opposite purpose to the Temple of God mentioned in Zechariah 4.

The GAP that Daniel shows us is what I highlighted:
Dan 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Timing words in red. Notice carefully, the first 69 weeks have finished by verse 25. The 70th week does not begin until verse 27.

What is between? Messiah killed. Jerusalem destroyed - with the temple.
Conclusion? Daniel Himself, led by the Holy Spirit TOLD US there would be a gap.

Your eschatological and covenantal views are behind the eight ball so to speak where you miss out the intended 1st recipients of the 70th week who are Daniel's people, when the Prince makes a stand for his people and redeems them by entering the Holy of Holies from without the temple gate and in the process ushers in the 7th day of rest through the pouring of his Blood on the Altar of God at the fifth seal.

We have entered God's rest day and the count had begun from the Cross as the door of Grace was opened by the Prince from without the Temple and he has been reigning through his Cross until he destroys the last enemy death, then when he comes he will deliver the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to God the Father and will be subject to the Father as he has accomplished his mission and God will be all in all of those who are now accounted for (measured within the Inner Temple) in the Book of Life when the books are opened at his 2nd Coming.

In conclusion, the 70th week is the 7th-day rest, when the Prince opened the door of Grace after the sixth day and remains open until the Gentile nations come to be fully accounted (measured) for in the Book of Life. In this respect, it is the work of Christ through his Cross in progress until he defeats the final enemy death. Therefore, from his Cross to this very day and within the 7th-day rest (70th week) he will continue to reign in the hearts and minds of men and women from all Gentile nations. What gap could there possibly be within the 70th week and for what purpose?

Absolutely nothing and so the gap is a denial of the power of the Cross and the denial of the Christ who has been reigning throughout the 70th week (7th-day rest) without fail and without a gap.

 

[iamlamad]

I will be judged by Jesus in accordance with His teachings and confirmed covenant. Paul has nothing in me.

Perhaps if you are a Jew, maybe not.

Romans 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[iamlamad]

Let me ask you a question then, does the Temple that God said he will start building upon the Cornerstone and to also finish building by his Holy Spirit a spiritual or a physical Temple?

You said in regards to the spiritual and physical that they shall "never the twain shall meet", then what purpose does one have that the other does not have in fulfilling the six conditions of Daniel below?

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Are you implying that the spiritual Temple of the Holy Spirit is unable to meet those requirements in full? Yes/No

So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by human might nor by human power, but by my Holy Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty. “The hands of God have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. (Zechariah 4:6,9)



I Love the Word for it is Life and Truth to my very existence. The vision given to John is symbolism of how the Holy Spirit Temple of Zechariah 4 is laid out.

John's measuring is a figure of speech for those who have already been redeemed as the firstfruits from the Old Covenant house and in fulfillment to Daniel 12 as Daniel's Old Covenant people who were already in their graves as those crying under the Altar of God (Revelation 6:9) at the fifth seal, the sealing of the 144,000 firstfruits. Paul gives the order in 1 Corinthians 15 as Christ the forerunner to the resurrection, then the firstfruits (144,000) of Revelation 6,7,14, then the Gentile nations that belong to him who make their robes white by the Blood of the Lamb.

The Commission to preach to the Gentiles is after the sealing of the 144,000 (Revelation 14) and then we see that those in the outer court representing the New Covenant Age are the multitude who sing the song of the Lamb, whereas the firstfruits sing the song of Moses and are called the servants of our God, who have the Father's name written on their foreheads which identified them as the firstfruit of the harvest when the Messiah came as promised to Daniel when he would raise them up (Matthew 27:51-53, Ezekiel 37:11-14).

The measured and not measured is a simple phrase to identify those accounted for in the Book of Life as already redeemed and so they now can sing the song that no man can sing, they sing the blues so to speak because they had already been beheaded for their testimony and the ones within the outer court are yet to be accounted for, meaning measured or counted within the inner court, because they have yet to be redeemed from amongst men requiring them to biologically die whilst keeping the faith in Christ as those who belong to him, when Jesus gives them their Crown of Life at his Appearing.

The measuring is not a measure in the sense of measurement systems but simply a phrase to say accounted for and that is all it is trying to convey.



The Prince is Jesus he is the one who provided the sacrifice by his own blood at the threshold of the gate between Heaven (Inner Court) and Earth (Outer Court) and his offering is the six Lambs who symbolize Old Covenant Israel and the one Ram represents the New Covenant Gentile nations. The Olive tree and the Wild Olive tree are the same symbols that point to the Jews (144,000) within the inner measured (accounted for) court of the Old Covenant and the Gentile nations within the yet to be accounted for (not measured) outer court of the New Covenant.

So the Door that is opened on the Seventh Day when the sacrifice of the Prince is offered to the Gentile nations is the Door of Grace and the six days previous to it was before the sacrifice of Christ that opened the door of Grace at the fifth seal. when Daniel's people who were crying under the Altar of God were sealed as the firstfruits of the harvest (Daniel 12).

The Prince is entering from without the Temple as the Royal Priest as pointing to his incarnation and crucifixion offering that opened the door of Grace for the 7th day rest of God that New Testament writers state that they are entering, within the context of Daniel's 70th week which must not have a gap as we are in the 7th day from the Cross until now (Hebrews 4:1-10). The door of Grace has been opened by the Prince from without before he proceeded to enter in the Holy of Holies within the Heavenly sanctuary and the nations that have been flocking are being offered the symbol of the Ram within the 7th day that has no gap. Otherwise, we would not be Christians if there was a gap, get it!

"Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,"

If the NT writers believed that they are entering God's rest day then it is concievable that this is the 7th day mentioned in those verses you presented as the Ram is being offered to the Wild Olive Tree which represents the many Gentile nations who make their robes white by the blood of the Lamb of God (Revelation 7) immediately after the 144,000 firstfruit Old Covenant Saints of the previous 6 days are sealed and accounted for within the inner court and the Prince stands at the door of Grace continually offering his sacrifice to the symbol of the Ram who represent the Gentiles within the 7th day that encompasses the 69.5 to 70 weeks Commission of the Church (Two Witnesses). The Church has been dispensing the golden oil through the two olive trees (Jews and Gentiles) within the commission of preaching the Gospel immediately after the sealing of the 144,000 firstfruits of Revelation 14 when the three Angel messages came from the Cross onwards, at the giving of the Sign of Jonah. To this very day, the Prince stands at the door as he said I stand at the door and knock and so the door of Grace was open from the Cross onwards and was never shut.

If some are saying there is a gap then they are unwittingly implying that the door of grace has been shut for the better part of 1988 years and this means that there are no Christians as there was no sacrifice being offered within the Holy Spirit Temple Construct of God and in this respect they still awaiting a physical temple in order to qualify them as Christians.

The very thought of a physical temple is contrary to the Word of God and is more akin to the erecting of the temple of doom, a temple that has an opposite purpose to the Temple of God mentioned in Zechariah 4.



Your eschatological and covenantal views are behind the eight ball so to speak where you miss out the intended 1st recipients of the 70th week who are Daniel's people, when the Prince makes a stand for his people and redeems them by entering the Holy of Holies from without the temple gate and in the process ushers in the 7th day of rest through the pouring of his Blood on the Altar of God at the fifth seal.

We have entered God's rest day and the count had begun from the Cross as the door of Grace was opened by the Prince from without the Temple and he has been reigning through his Cross until he destroys the last enemy death, then when he comes he will deliver the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to God the Father and will be subject to the Father as he has accomplished his mission and God will be all in all of those who are now accounted for (measured within the Inner Temple) in the Book of Life when the books are opened at his 2nd Coming.

Since you imagine we are already in the 7th day, I have little more to add. You are a long ways from mainline Christian thought.

I will give you a hint: When the 7th day (7th millennium) begins, Jesus will be on the earth. If you don't see Him, then we are not in the 7th day.

I wonder what you are going to do when Jesus begins the daily sacrifices again. Perhaps you will run and tell Him to STOP!
Perhaps you could read the last 10 chapters of Ezekiel again.

I should attempt to answer your questions.

i am not sure of the next temple will have ANYTHING to do with the 6 conditions Daniel wrote. Perhaps Jesus will be anointed in the new temple.

I don't see the spiritual temples of born again humans walking the earth fulfilling any one of these six.

"to finish the transgression, will not happen until the 1000 years are over?
and to make an end of sins, Same answer as above.
and to make reconciliation for iniquity, Done with the death and resurrection.
and to bring in everlasting righteousness, Maybe not until the New Heaven and earth.
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, ???

and to anoint the most Holy." Perhaps this will be done at the beginning of the 1000 years.

It seems these are things that Jesus must accomplish - not for the church to accomplish.
John's measuring is a figure of speech Unless God sends him to measure a REAL temple. I see no reason to symbolize this. If the plain sense makes sense, why symbolize? We KNOW Israel wants to build a new temple. We know Paul said the man of sin will walk into the most holy place in this temple. Well, at least I know it - you may not.

Sorry, but the fifth seal is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 he knew NOTHING about any 144,000! You must be kidding. I hope you know, the 144,000 will all be descendants of JACOB. In other words, NOT Gentiles.

The Commission to preach to the Gentiles is after the sealing of the 144,000 (Revelation 14) Can you show us a verse so we know you are not just imagining this?

The truth of the outer court that will be trampled by Gentiles is simple: the man of sin will show up in Jerusalem with Gentile armies - probably Muslim armies. THEY will trample the city for 42 months.

Be careful you don't spiritualize too much.

 

[ToServe]

Since you imagine we are already in the 7th day, I have nothing more to add. You are so far astray from mainline Christian thought it would be a waste of time.

I will give you a hint: When the 7th day (7th millennium) begins, Jesus will be on the earth. If you don't see Him, then we are not in the 7th day.

I wonder what you are going to do when Jesus begins the daily sacrifices again. Perhaps you will run and tell Him to STOP!
Perhaps you could read the last 10 chapters of Ezekiel again.

Please read what I have written for you and discern that you either will remove the gap and testify that Christ has been reigning on Earth through his Cross owing to the Commission of his two anointed ones (His Church) or you will need to disprove what I have written and to provide a reason behind why you believe what you believe.

You deny what the Word of God states through his NT writers that we have already entered his rest (Hebrews 4:1-10), then you need to give a reason as to why you deny it and for what purpose.

 

[Bladerunner]

It is a part of God's harvest because the dead are raised, and both living and dead receive resurrection bodies

Sorry, but those martyrs under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs.

The Dead are the ones resurrected, not the ones living. They both receive translated bodies and they are both redeemed.

Those under the altar are daniel's 70th week martyrs. (tribulation saints). The other tribulation saints will follow as the 144,000 and the two witnesses evangelize them throughout this period of time. The Church (Bride of Christ) is already in heaven.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't think there is a verse that says the New Covenant is between members of the Godhead. But there are verses that tell us in other words.
Phil. 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

These verses tell us that Jesus, the SON was willing to undertake the task of redemption, knowing it would include His own death. They show us that God the Father was very pleased with what He did.

What Jesus did goes all the way back to Abraham the night God put him to sleep and God the Father and the Redeemer (to become the SON) walked between the pieces of the animals in a blood covenant. Abraham was not involved: it was a covenant between two members of the Godhead. I suspect Jesus was 'standing in" for Abraham. God the Father was saying to the SON, representing Abraham: "If you are willing to shed your blood for me - then I am willing to shed my blood for you." I am guessing, for it is not written. But it is typical of blood covenants between men. Then the SON would reply the same. Each was promising they would be willing to die for the other.

The HUGE problem then was that God was Spirit and HAD NO BLOOD TO SHED. The second person of the trinity would have to become man to have blood to shed.

As a young boy in the temple, Jesus reminded His parents that He must be about His Father's business: redemption. Jesus did not make this decision apart from God the FAther and the Holy Spirit: He was SENT - but He came willingly.

In short, God's promise to the Son was this: "anyone who believes in You - in Your death, burial and resurrection and is willing to invite You to be their Lord - then I will forgive their sins and they can live eternally with me. Your blood will wash away their sins.

The HUGE question was: would Jesus death, and spending only three days in hell be enough to pay for the sins of the world? In other words, would the JUSTICE part of God be satisfied? The fact that Jesus ascended back into heaven proves that justice was satisfied.

What is man's side in this covenant? Only believe! But where does the faith come TO BELIEVE? It comes from Him also!

It is a "Diatheke" covenant: where one side does all the giving and the other side does all the receiving!

Strongs:
Diatheke: properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):—covenant, testament.

Mat 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, G1242 which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

"The Greek differentiates between a covenant where one party is the benefactor and the other the recipient (diatheke), and other covenants made between equal parties, where the word SUNTHEKE is used."

This covenant was planned before the world was created:

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How could we as men be a part of a covenant ordained before earth was created?

I am out of time. I hope I have given you something to think about.

 

[iamlamad]

Please read what I have written for you and discern that you either will remove the gap and testify that Christ has been reigning on Earth through his Cross owing to the Commission of his two anointed ones (His Church) or you will need to disprove what I have written and to provide a reason behind why you believe what you believe.

You deny what the Word of God states through his NT writers that we have already entered his rest (Hebrews 4:1-10), then you need to give a reason as to why you deny it and for what purpose.

You spiritualize too much. I will not answer. We perhaps have only the blood of Jesus in common.

 

[iamlamad]

The Dead are the ones resurrected, not the ones living. They both receive translated bodies and they are both redeemed.

Those under the altar are daniel's 70th week martyrs. (tribulation saints). The other tribulation saints will follow as the 144,000 and the two witnesses evangelize them throughout this period of time. The Church (Bride of Christ) is already in heaven.

Blade

You are pulling the first 5 seals out of their context. How can you hope to have the right answer when you ignore the context?

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Please tell us, what TIME was it when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down? You can approximate the year.

 

[Bladerunner]

There are spiritual temples and there are physical temples. You are talking spiritual and I am talking physical. No wonder "never the twain shall meet."

John (in the vision) was told to go and measure the temple. Count the number or worshiper IN the temple. Paul said the man of sin would enter the temple and declare that HE is God. Trust the WORD: there is going to be another temple.
Ezekiel wrote about it:

Here is just a snippet:
46:1 Thus saith the Lord God; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

The GAP that Daniel shows us is what I highlighted:
Dan 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Timing words in red. Notice carefully, the first 69 weeks have finished by verse 25. The 70th week does not begin until verse 27.

What is between? Messiah killed. Jerusalem destroyed - with the temple.
Conclusion? Daniel Himself, led by the Holy Spirit TOLD US there would be a gap.

now I uderstand what you are talking about. God is swearing to Himself.!

From what I see, I agree.
with you...

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

You are pulling the first 5 seals out of their context. How can you hope to have the right answer when you ignore the context?

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Please tell us, what TIME was it when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down? You can approximate the year.

Ok, I'll tag along for a while. The Holy SPirit was sent to to earth by Jesus in Acts 2.

If you are relating revelation with 70AD, then you are way off base. Even Daniel tells us this.

Rev 5:6 This is not the Holy Spirit but rather Jesus Christ. One might say the "spirit of Christ" (see Acts 16:7 and Romans 8:9).

I still don't know what you are trying to explain. I came in the middle of a conversation and maybe should not have. I will continue if ok with you.

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

Ok, I'll tag along for a while. The Holy SPirit was sent to to earth by Jesus in Acts 2.

If you are relating revelation with 70AD, then you are way off base. Even Daniel tells us this.

Rev 5:6 This is not the Holy Spirit but rather Jesus Christ. One might say the "spirit of Christ" (see Acts 16:7 and Romans 8:9).

I still don't know what you are trying to explain. I came in the middle of a conversation and maybe should not have. I will continue if ok with you.

Blade

Yes, my friend, it IS the Holy Spirit. We KNOW Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He, Jesus, ascended. This verse in chapter 5 shows us the moment Jesus entered the throne room after He ascended. Remember when He told Mary not to touch Him - for He had not yet ascended? Well, as soon as Mary left He ascended and John saw Him as He entered the throne room.

What you have missed is this:
Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father or even in the throne room in chapter - but shows up in chapter 5.
The Holy Spirit is there in the throne room in chapter 4 but is sent down in chapter 5.
"No man was found" in chapter 4, but a man was found in chapter 5.

YOu see, God is showing us TIMING and the movement of time. He is pinpointing the TIMING of the first seals to 32 AD, or the time of the infant church. As soon as Jesus arrived in the throne room, He got the book and began opening the seals.

It was JESUS that appeared, but as soon as He appeared, He sent the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. Questions? Disagreements?

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes, my friend, it IS the Holy Spirit. We KNOW Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He, Jesus, ascended. This verse in chapter 5 shows us the moment Jesus entered the throne room after He ascended. Remember when He told Mary not to touch Him - for He had not yet ascended? Well, as soon as Mary left He ascended and John saw Him as He entered the throne room.

What you have missed is this:
Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father or even in the throne room in chapter - but shows up in chapter 5.
The Holy Spirit is there in the throne room in chapter 4 but is sent down in chapter 5.
"No man was found" in chapter 4, but a man was found in chapter 5.

YOu see, God is showing us TIMING and the movement of time. He is pinpointing the TIMING of the first seals to 32 AD, or the time of the infant church. As soon as Jesus arrived in the throne room, He got the book and began opening the seals.

It was JESUS that appeared, but as soon as He appeared, He sent the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. Questions? Disagreements?

Is there a Millennium in your mind?

Blade