Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 12:5-11 teaches: “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself. We need to look at the context, identify what is happening, and then put the theological jigsaw pieces together. We need to be careful to refuse any interpretation that has been contrived of man, and foisted upon this text, to reinforce a faulty, preconceived, and prejudiced end-times viewpoint.

The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne. This all occurred 2000 years ago. This, according to the text, resulted in the devil’s eviction from heaven. Why? The penalty for sin had now been fully paid, the grave had been finally defeated, Satan’s grounds for accusation had been powerfully destroyed and his charge sheet against God’s people had been suitably ripped in two. Sin had lost its dominion over the believer and the devil’s condemning finger has now been broken. The accuser had lost his authority to bring charges against God’s elect before the bar of God in heaven.

A perfect human life had been lived in the form of the earthly assignment of Christ. The law had been fully met and the punishment for sin had been fully executed. Those who placed their trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross were instantly set free of the dominion, power and penalty of sin. God’s people were now free. There was no longer any condemnation for the redeemed.

Justice had been copiously served. Righteousness prevailed. Death and the grave had been suitably conquered. Christ broke open the gates of hell and liberated the redeemed dead. Christ’s accomplishments emptied Hades (Abraham's bosom) of God's elect. The spiritual barriers to entry into heaven had now been removed. Also, the lake of fire (the second death or eternal punishment) was defeated for God's people. The enemy was roundly defeated on all fronts.

One of the main effects of Satan being evicted from heaven and being spiritual bound was that the nations would be enlightened. This was a mammoth pivotal historic change for the Gentiles spiritually. This was what allowed the Gospel to expand outside of Israel borders to invade a dark Gentile world. This began the enlightening of the nations. The outside world would no longer be ignorant of the truth. It would now know about Jesus. It would know about the cross. It would know about redemption.

Satan’s control, movement and influence over the Gentiles would be seriously curtailed from now on. An emboldened Church was empowered to invade his territory and bring the good news to the heathen. And there was nothing Satan could do about that.

Christ powerfully confronted Satan's largely unchallenged, global earthly rule. The evil one’s advance, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow. Christ broke Satan's claim over the Gentiles and opened up a way of salvation for the heathen. The devil’s ability to deceive the nations had been decimated with the widespread evangelization of the Gentiles. No longer did they sit in complete darkness as before. There was a bright light shining throughout the nations.

Satan’s former unchallenged global position had come to an end. John declares: “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ.” It was now time for the Gospel to invade the Gentile (ethnos) nations. The Church was now able to overcome Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” and bring the Gospel to “the whole world” that had previously sat in darkness.

From the first century to our current day the great commission has saturated the nations with the Gospel light. Countless millions have encountered the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, through the faithful preaching of the Word of God. Satan cannot in away thwart the might expanse of the Gospel. What a victorious picture of the achievements of Christ and the empowerment of the New Testament Church to evangelize the nations.

Talking about the time of Satan’s eviction, this passage notably described the devil as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).

That was his prevailing status when he was being evicted 2000 years ago. He “deceiveth the whole world.” He had the nations enslaved in darkness believing his lies. He ruled all nations before the cross, apart from national Israel, and even then, he had most Israelis deceived with his lies.

But this is not his status today.

Since the Lord’s ascension to the throne of God, the devil’s power is hampered. Christ now sits victorious in the glory as our prophet, priest and king. Satan, who once deceived “the whole world” has lost his immense unchallenged global influence. The authority to do such being significantly curtailed by the work of Christ and the advance of the Church of Jesus Christ. Satan has no answer to the light.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in a spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations. Like a dog on a chain, he is limited on what he can do, where he can go and who he can speak to.

Before Satan’s eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifted the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot.

With the global expanse of the great commission, the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is removed. The deception enveloping the Gentiles has been lifted. Those Gentiles who embrace the Gospel are no longer deceived. They are enlightened. The faithful from every nation on earth are brought into a personal faith in Christ, experience the joy of sins forgiven and are grafted into the Israel of God. The Gentiles are no longer ignorant. The nations are now without excuse, just like those in the Old Testament that rejected salvation.

Salvation has now come to the nations. The Church has received its baptism of fire at Pentecost. It has received its Divine mandate. The world is its parish. As a result, the Church has become a militant overcoming organism throughout the nations. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

The Gospel has gone out to the nations throughout this new covenant period, corresponding with the parallel binding of Satan for his territory to be overrun with the truth. The millennium was ushered in by Christ’s resurrection (the first resurrection). It has seen the Gospel go out to the Gentiles (as predicted). Before the resurrection, the Gospel was restricted to one lone small nation Israel. The Gospel has liberated countless millions of Gentiles over this past 2,000 years as Satan's territory has been invaded with the truth. Village after village, town after town, city after city, nation after nation globally has encountered the light. Those that have eyes to see will see.

 

[oikonomia]

We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself. We need to look at the context, identify what is happening, and then put the theological jigsaw pieces together. We need to be careful to refuse any interpretation that has been contrived of man, and foisted upon this text, to reinforce a faulty, preconceived, and prejudiced end-times viewpoint.

Okay. How would you have me understand it?

The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne.

Yes.

This all occurred 2000 years ago. This, according to the text, resulted in the devil’s eviction from heaven.

This is the victory of the Head which needs the victory of the Body. At least a representative remnant of the Body.
Jesus was not ascended when born physically. He ascended when born in resurrection the Firstborn Son of God.

Why? The penalty for sin had now been fully paid, the grave had been finally defeated, Satan’s grounds for accusation had been powerfully demolished and his charge sheet against God’s people had been suitably ripped in two.

Sure, redemptions work was done. The need for believers to overcome is a potentiality not an fact automatically accomplished.
This is why the epistles to encourage us TO overcome. Standing on His finished work and His indwelling we can.

A perfect human life had been lived in the form of the earthly assignment of Christ. The law had been fully met and the punishment for sin had been fully met. Justice had been copiously served. Righteousness prevailed. Death and the grave had been wholly conquered. The accuser had lost his authority to bring charges against God’s elect and his power to falsely accuse.

All true. It is also true that there is the need for Christ to be wrought into the souls of those who have been redeemed and regenerated.
There is the need for God to dispense Christ as life into every corner of our being effecting transformation. [my caps below]

And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect. (Rom. 12:2)

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:18)

God’s people were now free. There was no longer any condemnation for the redeemed. Satan had nothing on them.

The many epistles were written that what OUGHT to be would BE the case. We know that what OUGHT to be is not always what IS with
Christians. Sometimes what ought to be is not what is with you and I. So the need to overcome applying this great victory
is needed. And this is a matter of God's life GROWING in the believers.

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:13)

And not holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (Col. 2:19)

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Pet. 3:18)

Christ’s accomplishments emptied Hades (Abraham's bosom) of God's elect. The spiritual barriers to entry into heaven had now been removed. Also, the lake of fire (the second death or eternal punishment) was defeated for God's people. The enemy was roundly defeated on all fronts.

Aside from this belief you do see the need for the genuine local church to be a FARM where the growth of God's life is
growing and building the believers into His holy temple? The GROWTH of the divine life is the only way the holy TEMPLE
can be filled with the dweller the holy triune God.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth. (1 Cor. 3:6,7)

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (v.9)

A proper local church must be a environment where God's life is growing and building His living temple.
Do you not know that you [the church in Corinth] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

So the apostles planted the life of Christ, watered the life of Christ, and God caused the growth of th divine life and the
divine building to emmerge. This is what OUGHT to be. And here also Paul labored to present every believer full-grown in Christ.

. . . which is Christ in you, the hope of glory,
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom
that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:27b,28)

As with the church in Corinth so with the church in Ephesus.
They were being built into this habitation of God in spirit.

. . . but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:19b-22)

One of the main effects of Satan being evicted from heaven and being spiritual bound was that the nations would be enlightened. This was a mammoth pivotal historic change for the Gentiles spiritually. This was moment the Gospel expanded outside of Israel borders to invade a dark Gentile world. This began the enlightening of the nations. The outside world would no longer be ignorant of the truth. It would now know about Jesus. It would know about the cross. It would know about redemption.

Surely, to know about Jesus is the gospel. And to have this Jesus dispensed into man and to grow within man is
full victory. The sign of Revelation 12 of the woman giving birth to the man-child shows a remnant will
break through to the effect of this dispensing of the Triune God into man for resurrection, rapture, and the catylyst for
the further limitation of Satan.

It is the catching up to the throne of a collective "THEY" as more than conquerors or overcomers which triggers the
expulsion of Satan's freedom to appear before God to accuse.

Of course the Head Christ is the HE who overcame. But the "THEY" who overcome here are those who received the growth,
the dispensing, the filling up in their souls of the life of Christ. The dispensing of God's life into them unhindered is
the cause of thier victory. The OUGHT of His salvation cannot fail to be the IS with at least a remnant of overcomers.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)

It is suprising how much resistence there is to the corporate nature of this man-child.
They cannot overcome without Christ. Yet Christ's victory is needs their overcoming through Him to be full.
The crushing of Satan by Christ must be transmitted down into His Body.
For He has been made the head over all things to the church.

Paul taught as much - Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)

Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from both his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven.

The vindication of a resurrected and raptured corporate man-child in no conceivable way does harm to this truth.

Satan’s advance, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

The overcoming of a corporate "THEY" of "our brothers" in no way does damage to this truth.

Christ broke Satan’s claim over the Gentiles and opened up a way of salvation for the heathen. The devil’s ability to deceive the nations has been dented with the widespread evangelization of the Gentiles. No longer do they sit in complete darkness as before. There is a bright light shining throughout the nations.

Satan’s former unchallenged global position had come to an end. John declares: “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ.” It was now time for the Gospel to invade the Gentile (ethnos) nations. The Church was now able to overcome Satan “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” and bring the Gospel to “the whole world” that had previously sat in darkness.

None of this is harmed by the realization that a Gideon's army like stronger collective man-child cannot fail to
be produced out from the larger body of God's people.

Nothing about a corporate man-child's resurrection and rapture 3.5 years or so before the end of the age damages
the truths of the light of the Gospel going to the nations.

It is appreciated that you emphasize this matter of the Gospel to the Gentile world.
The catching up to the throne of the collective THEY does not undue any of this.
Nor does it suggest Christ did not win a mighty victory in His death and resurrection.

What a victorious picture of the achievements of Christ and the empowerment of the New Testament Church to evangelize the nations. This was the beginning of the great commission.

Once evangelized the dispensing of God's life into man is the critical continuation.
The verses on growth above demonstrate this. God desires not only men to be saved but also
to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

A wonderful evangelist like, let us say, Billy Graham could bring hundreds of people to Christ in a night.
Yet hundreds did not grow in grace to come into the full knowledge of the truth.
The fish must be brought into the net. Yet the building of the habitation of God in spirit requires the dispensing
of God more and more into those saved.

. . . our Savior God, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2,3b,4)

Talking about the time of Satan’s eviction, this passage notably described the devil as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).

That was his prevailing status when he was being evicted 2000 years ago. He “deceiveth the whole world.” He had the nations enslaved in darkness believing his lies. He ruled all nations before the cross, apart from national Israel, and even then, he had most Israelis deceived with his lies.

The defeat of Satan comes in stages of successive and further limitation of his sphere of activity.
Christ played the chiefest role in this. But the church must also play a role.

The expulsion of Satan from further work of accusation in Revelation 12 is when the corporate overcomers
arrive in heaven and the Satan is finally limited to the surface of the earth only.

This is reason for those raptured to rejoice for subjectively the kingdom and authority of Christ has subjectively become theirs.
But it is reason for the earth to have WOE for the next three and one half years of a short time.


And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THIER testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens AND THOSE WHO DWELL IN THEM. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:11,12)

This interpretation is not a rational to postpone our announceing Christ's conquoring of the Devil at all.
This interpretation is not saying "Now is not the time to overcome the enemy."

It is always the time for Christians to overcome by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of thier testimony, and by
loving Christ above the self centered fallen adamic soul life.

I would reject any reasoning that because this rapture of overcomers is in the future therefore
we must be defeated. No, all the more we remind Satan of his miserable destiny because of Christ's victory.

I think you are making a false dichotomy. That is IF we view the rapture of a corporate man-child in the last days
then we deny the victory of Christ or the blessing of the Gospel's progress through the ages. Such a rational
may seem to motivate your position. But do not make a false dichotomy - "A future rapture of a remnant of overcomers
means the Christ and the gospel to the nations is undermined."
It is not.

But this is not his status today.

Since the Lord’s ascension to the throne of God, the devil’s power is hampered.

This truth needs not only objective doctrinal agreement. It needs subjective experiencial participation
in the lives of believers. Ie, more of the dispensing of Christ into every part of our being.

 

[oikonomia]

Christ now sits victorious in the glory as our prophet, priest and king. Satan, who once deceived “the whole world” has lost that immense global influence. The authority to do such being significantly curtailed by the work of Christ and the advance of the Church of Jesus Christ.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in a spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations.

Do you believe ALL of his minions have been so confined?
My understanding of the Bible is that some particularly offensive were put in eternal bonds yet some still have so
ability to damage humanity.

Jude says certain angels were bound. Does he say ALL have been yet? I don't think so.
And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day; (Jude 6)
Compare:
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment; (2 Pet. 2:4)

The lowest of the low places in the abyss does not yet contain all the rebellious angels who followed Satan.
But we can remind Satan of the truth. That is the eternal fire is prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:41)
Of course all throughout the church age believers should overcome by standing on Christ's victory and Satan's inevitable
final eternal damnation.

This is proclaming the facts. These facts are part of "the word of their testimony".

Before Satan’s eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission, the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

I would be a fool to argue against any of this.
God though must dispense His life into man that the victory become a subjective realization.

So it is under the feet of the prevailing church life Satan will soon be crushed as well.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)

As Christ grows in those He has saved the Devil is crushed more.
As Christ is imparted into the fabric of our being the Devil us crushed more.
As the growth of God causes the church to come into the triumphant full expression of the Son of God Satan is crushed within us.

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:13)

The man-child is an example of a remnant out of the greater defeated weaker body of the believers who break through to normality.
And we believers should seek to be brought on to maturity.

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph.4:14-16)

Notice "Until we all arrive" points to future of Paul's life.
We all will arrive. But what if some arrive before the majority?
We all will arrive. We may not all arrive at the same time.

Here in Revelation 12 we have a Gideon's army like minority who are the stronger part of the greater body of saints.
God does not wait until all arrive if He has accumulated a representative group of overcoming ones from the ages.
Their overcoming is in fact for the sake that the whole may be benefitted by the close of the church age and the commencement
of the kingdom age of 1,000 years.

Do I read the Bible wrong when it says some will be resurrected and reign with Christ for a thousand years?
And that said about five times in Revelation 20?

You know Paul rebuked false teachers for teaching that the resurrection had passed already.

And their word will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
Who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:17,18)

Are you teaching us that the resurrection and reigning of these marytred ones took place two thousand years ago?
(See Revelation 20)

Rv 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Rv 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

Rv 20:3 And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while.

Rv 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rv 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rv 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rv 20:7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

 

[sovereigngrace]

Do you believe ALL of his minions have been so confined?
My understanding of the Bible is that some particularly offensive were put in eternal bonds yet some still have so
ability to damage humanity.

Jude says certain angels were bound. Does he say ALL have been yet? I don't think so.
And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day; (Jude 6)
Compare:
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment; (2 Pet. 2:4)

The lowest of the low places in the abyss does not yet contain all the rebellious angels who followed Satan.
But we can remind Satan of the truth. That is the eternal fire is prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matt. 25:41)
Of course all throughout the church age believers should overcome by standing on Christ's victory and Satan's inevitable
final eternal damnation.

This is proclaming the facts. These facts are part of "the word of their testimony".

I would be a fool to argue against any of this.
God though must dispense His life into man that the victory become a subjective realization.

So it is under the feet of the prevailing church life Satan will soon be crushed as well.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)

As Christ grows in those He has saved the Devil is crushed more.
As Christ is imparted into the fabric of our being the Devil us crushed more.
As the growth of God causes the church to come into the triumphant full expression of the Son of God Satan is crushed within us.

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:13)

The man-child is an example of a remnant out of the greater defeated weaker body of the believers who break through to normality.
And we believers should seek to be brought on to maturity.

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph.4:14-16)

Notice "Until we all arrive" points to future of Paul's life.
We all will arrive. But what if some arrive before the majority?
We all will arrive. We may not all arrive at the same time.

Here in Revelation 12 we have a Gideon's army like minority who are the stronger part of the greater body of saints.
God does not wait until all arrive if He has accumulated a representative group of overcoming ones from the ages.
Their overcoming is in fact for the sake that the whole may be benefitted by the close of the church age and the commencement
of the kingdom age of 1,000 years.

Do I read the Bible wrong when it says some will be resurrected and reign with Christ for a thousand years?
And that said about five times in Revelation 20?

You know Paul rebuked false teachers for teaching that the resurrection had passed already.

And their word will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
Who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and overthrow the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:17,18)

Are you teaching us that the resurrection and reigning of these marytred ones took place two thousand years ago?
(See Revelation 20)

Rv 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Rv 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

Rv 20:3 And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while.

Rv 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rv 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Rv 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rv 20:7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

I have not heard anyone link the man child to a corporate body.

 

[oikonomia]

I have heard anyone link the man child to a corporate body.

Is this you have heard or you have not heard?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Is this you have heard or you have not heard?

Sorry, "not."

 

[oikonomia]

Sorry, "not."

Then maybe I came on too hard.
Sorry.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Then maybe I came on too hard.
Sorry.

Are you Premil, Amil or Postmil?

 

[oikonomia]

Are you Premil, Amil or Postmil?

The millennial kingdom is yet to arrive.

I teach that creeds and "isms" are limited in thier usefulness.
That is "limited" not altogether without use.

The statements of the Scripture must be held in higher regard than "isms" or creeds and theological formulas.
We should always endevour to hold the pure words of Scripture higher than our limited isms of systematized theology.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The millennial kingdom is yet to arrive.

I teach that creeds and "isms" are limited in thier usefulness.
That is "limited" not altogether without use.

The statements of the Scripture must be held in higher regard than "isms" or creeds and theological formulas.
We should always endevour to hold the pure words of Scripture higher than our limited isms of systematized theology.

I think we all feel we do that. The only problem with your chosen eschatology view is that it lacks clear corroboration in Scripture.

There are many wild and fanciful claims made by Premillennialist about a future millennial age that when put to the test cannot be found in the text of Scripture. Many elaborate millennial claims have been so loudly, repeatedly and prominently advanced for so long that many Premillennialists automatically believe them to be facts. There is so much that is attributed to Revelation 20 and forced into that text by Premillennialists that cannot in any way be found in this much-debated chapter. Premillennialists carefully and confidently package many of their theories as absolute truths yet when pressed they are unable to furnish us with hard biblical proof of the same. Sadly, when something is repeatedly presented as facts by reputable evangelicals and is not suitably tested it can become convincing and believable.

It is fair to say: Premillennialists are fixated with Revelation 20, and for good reason. That is because they have no other clear Scripture to support their opinion. They consequently have no other biblical support for all of the core tenets of their position pertaining to Revelation 20. They enjoy zero corroboration for all of these fundamentals. Dismantle their view of Revelation 20, and their interpretation quickly falls apart. Amil, on the other hand, is based upon the reading of a large amount of climactic Scriptures that show the second coming to be the end of time, the end of the bondage of corruption and the end of mortal existence. The Lord’s return ushers in the eternal state. Amillennialists see the detail of Revelation 20 as supporting the consisting teaching of the Bible.

Because of this, Premillennialists force a lot of their own theories upon Revelation 20 that do not belong there. They teach these as if they are in the inspired text. But they are not. I want to examine some of the popular assumptions that are made. I want to look some of the notable contradictions in their position.

• Jesus on earth on a future millennial earth.
• The millennial earth is perfect and pristine.
• Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.
• Humans in mortal bodies become sinless.
• Sinners become sinless outside of salvation.
• This millennium sees wholesale obedience by unregenerate mortals to Jesus.
• Billions of sinners who became sinless as soon as they entered this future millennium suddenly become the grossest and most foolish bunch of sinners ever to live as they en-mass become Satan worshipers as soon as 1,000 years is up.
• Corruptible mortals interact with glorified believers for 1000 years+.
• The old covenant ceremonial arrangement is restarted in full, including the feasts and festivals, the universal observance of Jewish customs, the return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) or the restarting of the old covenant priesthood in the future.
• Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.

Collectively, these expectations portray a future millennium that is not taught in the Bible.

 

[oikonomia]

I think we all feel we do that. The only problem with your chosen eschatology view is that it lacks clear corroboration in Scripture.

I don't think so.

There are many wild and fanciful claims made by Premillennialist about a future millennial age that when put to the test cannot be found in the text of Scripture. Many elaborate millennial claims have been so loudly, repeatedly and prominently advanced for so long that many Premillennialists automatically believe them to be facts.

Let's get to it. These so far are just preparatory assertions.
I will not be defending some position that I do not have.

There is so much that is attributed to Revelation 20 and forced into that text by Premillennialists that cannot in any way be found in this much-debated chapter.

I am going to pause and digest all of your post to see if you're talking to me or someone else.
Pray for me though that as I fellowship with you Christ, Christ, and Christ is exalted and occupies the preeminent
place in all this exchange.

Otherwise I think it is vanity to debate Bible things.
Now I also will pray and digest your points in this light.

Stay tuned.

 

[oikonomia]

• Jesus on earth on a future millennial earth.

I read your preliminary generalized critques. So far they seem eager to expect me to place all
my reasonings on Revelation 20. I can see you're ready for that.

• The millennial earth is perfect and pristine.

We should not expect perfection or pristineness applies to the millennial kingdom coming.
Since only a remnant have so matured to be rewarded so also restoration is not total.
The nations still require shepherding from Christ and the co-kings rewarded to reign with Him.

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)
Compare:
And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:15)
Compare:
Ask of Me, / And I will give the nations as Your inheritance / And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; / You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel. (Psalm 2:8)

All through the church age the saints do not or certainly SHOULD NOT be ruling nations with a strong political power (iron rod).
Roman Catholicism sought to do so. But it is abnormal. At the second coming of Christ some nations will pass from the
church age into the next millennial kingdom age. And as the need arises strong direction from the King of kings and His co-kings
will then reign outwardly.

So your first pressupposition of a completely perfect and pristine I would not teach.
As considerably healed and substantially restored world is seen.
The new heaven and new earth after the elements are burned up and dissolved - THEN that is our new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:12,13)

• Salvation restarts in a future age after the second coming.

The reward for maturing to reign with Christ immediatly upon His second coming OUGHT to be to the church universal.
But what OUGHT to be in the Bible is not always what TYPICALLY happens.
Knowing this some saved are save and rewarded. And some suffer loss, losing reward yet are still saved.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Since those not rewarded yet still saved require more dispensing of God into them TIME is needed to
accomplish this remedial matter. This is like the negligient student have to graduate not at the appropriate time but latter.
Therefore the 1,000 millennial period is also like "Summer School" when the celerbration is missed by many yet the lessons
must be learned anyway.

The dispensing of divine life is something that God's habitation, His holy temple of living saints must have.
The flavor of such dealings during the millennial period will be different from their flavor during the age of grace.

In other words at the judgment seat of Christ reward or discipline will be administered.
1.) Some are saved and receive a reward.
2.) Some are saved and suffer loss.

Those how are saved and suffer loss still need perfection, fullness of sanctification, saturation and permeation with the Spirit
in their personalities. So we all should seek to be matured in the appropriate time and not in a remedial time.

• Humans in mortal bodies become sinless.

I would like you to compare these two passages.

First concerning Jesus Christ the Lamb who died for us.
But with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; (1 Pet. 1:19)

Second concerning His expectation for recipients of His full salvation.
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish; (2 Pet. 3:13,14)

The same writer, the Apostle Peter charges we should be found "without spot and without blemish" as
He who died for us was "without blemish and without spot".

This is the ultimate result of the Triune God dispensing His life and nature into man through Christ's full salvation.
It is our destiny. It is our finak destination. We shall be perfect because He who begot us as our Father in life is perfect.

You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt. 5:48)

On our own it is totally impossible. With the dispensing of the divine nature to completely fill us it is possible.

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Pet. 1:3,4)

It is God's eternal purpose that we are conformed to the image of His Son, the Firstborn among many brothers like Him.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30)

Christ deems that a remnant during the millennial period are worthy to match Him as His counterpart wife. They are forerunners.
And after the 1,000 years none are left so conformed to His image. For in that time only righteousness dwells.

This is in the hands of the Lord. Our self estimation is not the decider.
We are told to have mercy on each other as He has had mercy on us.

Did you read that our hope is to be made holy completely - spirit and soul and body - complete?
And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it.

Did you see that? Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it.

• Sinners become sinless outside of salvation.

During the millennial kingdom those outside of being regenerated, being born of God need shephering.
Though the evil spirit of Satan is bound the need still is there for sheperding of the nations whom God allows to transition from
the church age into the millennial kingdom age.

Unless you believe the Christians reign over each other there must be some others over whom they reign.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim. 2:12,13)

Because He cannot deny Himself, those who became faithless STILL must be saved and
receive the dispensing of God's life and nature into them. God has time. WE need to utilize
the time He alots to us wisely. But if not, He has time to perfect. He cannot deny Himself.

• This millennium sees wholesale obedience by unregenerate mortals to Jesus.

Since we are not yet in this period of history we cannot presume too much.
But we know enough that it is a partial restoration in which also the judgment by His twelve disciples will over Israel then.

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

Paul also speaks of a time in which the churching saints will judge the world and even the evil angels.
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? (1 Cor. 6:2a)
Do you not know that we will judge angels, (v. 3a)

So "wholesale obedience" may be questionable for the nations.
It seems to me that a long period of 1,000 years it will take to secure cooperation of those reigned over.
And even after such a time, apparently some are still possible to be unthankful and deceived.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:7-10)

I must suspend for the moment. Give me time to catch up latter with the rest of your bullet points if you can.
The bottom line here is that God's purpose of imparting and dispensing His life and nature into His people requires
Him time. It must be completed. We all must arrive at the measure of the stature of a full grown man.

This does not insist that all arrive by the same time. But that all WILL arrive is garuanteed.

And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Eph. 4:11-13)

 

[sovereigngrace]

I read your preliminary generalized critques. So far they seem eager to expect me to place all
my reasonings on Revelation 20. I can see you're ready for that.

I will take that as an admission my allegation is correct.

We should not expect perfection or pristineness applies to the millennial kingdom coming.
Since only a remnant have so matured to be rewarded so also restoration is not total.
The nations still require shepherding from Christ and the co-kings rewarded to reign with Him.

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "only a remnant have so matured to be rewarded ... so also restoration is not total"? I though the dead in Christ and the live in Christ are all glorified at the coming of Christ? So, who are all these wicked that enter your future millennium? What warrants their survival from the wrath of God? How can this "remnant" who "have so matured to be rewarded" turn against Christ in their billions?

Compare:

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)
And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:15)

When Christ comes, He is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine – only trodden in righteous anger. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations. How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino or shepherd] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”

The rule will be an authority to judge/condemn the nations at the end with Christ. The text makes clear that they will be demolished. There is no mortals left to populate the so-called future millennium.

The first thing we should establish here in these oft used passages to support the Premil paradigm is that there is not the slightest suggestion here of a 1,000 years long reign of Christ on earth in natural Jerusalem reigning over hostile nations, who in reality privately oppose His righteous leadership. Notwithstanding, the aforementioned are some of the primary evidence Premils present for a thousand-years-reign of Christ on the earth after the coming of Christ. The only problem is, the detail and import of these passages lend themselves more to a climactic understanding of the second coming. They seem to portray Christ coming in wrath to destroy the wicked rather than usher them into a supposed new millennial earth. They depict a final awful destruction for the rebels of this earth.

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

The reference to poimanei in Revelation 2 is in the context of the general judgment at the end of the world and our exercising of power with Christ as He gives out His final sentence on the wicked. The overcoming Church (in Christ) is seen to be part of the final judging of the nations and seeing their final destruction “as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers.” The concluding phrase (“shall they be broken to shivers”) is actually taken from the lone Greek word suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total obliteration of the wicked at His appearing. The destructive wording found here in this passage in the Greek correlates perfectly with the wording used in Psalm 2 to describe the same thing in the Hebrew.

Compare:
Ask of Me, / And I will give the nations as Your inheritance / And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; / You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel. (Psalm 2:8)

Psalm 2:1-12 tells us: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

The first thing we note here is that the “King” is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 7 declares, “the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

In verse 4 we see the habitation of the King; how He “sitteth in the heavens.” In fact, verse 6 goes on to figuratively explain, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”

This interpretation is unequivocally confirmed in Acts 4:24-28, in the disciples prayer to God, where it records, “they (the disciples) lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said [in Psalm 2], Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

The New Testament writers have already located the fulfillment of it. They relate it to the current age. Your conflict is with the Book, again. Here this seemingly global prophecy is directly applied to Christ and to His first Advent, and to the different leaders of His day that opposed Him.

Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch in Acts 13:22-23 says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

Manifestly, these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly eternal throne. These earthly minded theologians had totally misunderstood the hour of their visitation and the actual form that Messiah’s reign would assume. In fact, Paul stated, in Acts 13:27-30, “For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

Paul enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm [yes, Psalm 2], Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [in Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David” (vv 32-34).

The promised Messiah has already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that the unbelieving Jews had carnally imagined. Paul here applies the Old Testament promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection to the throne; and explains how such a prophecy has already been gloriously fulfilled.

This is irrefutable evidence that Psalm 2 relates to the intra-Advent period.

 

[oikonomia]

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "only a remnant have so matured to be rewarded ... so also restoration is not total"?

In the previous chapter 19, 17, 14, 12, 2, 3 that those who overcome are most likely a remnant.
We believe "whoseever believes into Him" in John 3:16 refers to those who fulfill the mentioned condition rather than the whole world.
Why should we not believe "to him who overcomes" would not also be a conditional promise?

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; (Rev. 2:26)
There are six other similar promises to the churches all of which are conditional. So the remnant would be those
whom Christ deems have fulfilled the condition.

In chapter 12 the stronger "man-child" to actually do what was promised in 2:26,27 is a subgroup within the larger
producing body. Therefore they are a remnant.

In chapter 14 the ones seen on Mt. Zion in heaven as firstfruits for the Father's satisfaction are numbered 144,000.
So they are obviously a remnant.

In chapter 17 the ones with Christ are called and chosen. But they have added something which clearly not all achieve in the church
age - FAITHFULNESS. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)
So this is a remnant as well.

In chapter 19 it could not be the church universal over all time celebrating. Not all have taken the time to make themselves ready.
That is a sad fact of life and history that we must realistically acknowledge. Sometimes you and I neglect making ourselves ready.
So they are a remnant as well.

They are seen rejoicing in the destruction of religious Babylon below during the great tribulation.
And religious Babylon contains many of God's genuine redeemed people. Otherwise the voice from heaven would not
say "Come out of her My people."
And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues; (Rev. 18:4)
So if some of God's people are there told to come out then ALL could not be in heaven observing and Hallelujah-ing at her judgment.
And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever. (Rev. 19:3)

So also in chapter 20 based on the foregoing examples of remnants, the reward to reign with Him 1,000 years
most likely would not refer to those who were defeated and not overcoming.

The Lord's parable show Him placing his possessions to those faithful servants in some regard.

And he said to him, Well done, good slave. Because you have become faithful in the least, have authority over ten cities.
And the second came, saying, Your mina, master, has made five minas.
And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities.

And the other came, saying, Master, behold your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; (Luke 19:17-20)

You should know that the unprofitable servant did not similarly receive the reward of responsibilty.
So those rewarded must be a remnant of all His servants.

His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.
And he who had received the two talents also came and said, Master, you delivered to me two talents; behold, I have gained another two talents.

His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master. (Matt. 25:21-23)

You should know that the slothful slave is to be disciplined and not rewarded.

And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow.Therefore you should have deposited my money with the money changers; and when I came, I would have recovered what is mine with interest.

Take away therefore the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. (vs. 26-28)

So it is logical that not all of the Christians will be rewarded to reign with Him over His possessions
or enter into the joy of doing so. At least not yet are they perfected.

 

[oikonomia]

I though the dead in Christ and the live in Christ are all glorified at the coming of Christ? So, who are all these wicked that enter your future millennium? What warrants their survival from the wrath of God? How can this "remnant" who "have so matured to be rewarded" turn against Christ in their billions?

The defeated Christians do not enter into the millennial kingdom. They go to something called "the outer darkness."

And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 25:30)

Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22:13)

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:12)

These verses have to do with discipline or reward AFTER the second coming of Christ.
The Apostle John warns of the possibility of being put to shame from Him at His coming.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

The same writer's longing was that those under his care would win "a full reward" implying that a non-full
reward was possible.

Look to yourselves that you do not lose the things which we wrought, but that you may receive a full reward. (2 John 8)

Why should it be difficult to imagine that a remnant will receive reward at the time of Christ's coming?

Paul himself was concerned that he would not be disapproved concerning reward. This implies a remnant are rewarded as well.
But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1 Cor. 9:27)

So he and his apostolic team sought to present every man "full-grown" in Christ.
. . . Christ in you, the hope of glory,
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom
that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:27b,28)

When Christ comes, He is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.”

The reference to His wrath "without mixture" is in Revelation 14 concerning those who receive the mark of the beast or the number of his name.

And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

There is no doubt this group of the hardest of the hard will seek to physically even oppose Christ in His second coming in chapter 19.

But if you read carefully during this time an eternal gospel is preached by the angel not by men.
This eternal gospel is to fear the CREATOR of the universe. Some will receive this news to fear the Creator
instead of fearing the man Antichrist sitting in the temple proclaiming that he is god.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (Rev. 14:6,7)

Some through the great tribulation who responded with fear of the God who alone could so shake the universe,
will be spared to transition into the millennial kingdom.

They will be restored to the state Adam was in when he was innocent, neutral, and very good yet had not the life of God within him.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory.
And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And He will set the sheep on His right hand and the goats on the left.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 25:31-34)

The kingdom prepared "from the foundation of the world" is the good earth made for man from Genesis.
The church however consists of sons of God who were predestined to an inheritance before the foundation of the world.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

In the millennium the sons of God who comprise a rewarded remnant will reign as co-kings with Christ over
nations who are transfered into the 1,000 years. This is consistent with many prophecies.
The sons have the life of their Father.
The nations over whom the sons reign are not regenerated.

The inheritance of the sons of God was secured "before the foundation of the world"
The millennial restoration is the blessing of spared nations "from the foundation of the world."

Also in Matthew 25:31 Jesus does not say "blessed of [YOUR] Father" but "you who are blessed of MY Father"
This shows that they are blessed but not in a divine life relationshipo with God as their regenerating Father.

 

[oikonomia]

What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Reading Revelation carefully we do see that SOME during that time out of terror will repent.
They may not know that much. Maybe in those days it will be difficult to even get a Bible in some places.
But apparently SOME of the nations repent.

Ie. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake, and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (Rev. 11:13)

Do you think these who became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven will also join Antichrist's army to
war against the descending Lamb and King of kings? I do not believe so.

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:19-21)

Unless you believe that the saints reign over each other, there must be SOME peoples during that time for the sons
of God to shepherd and reign over with Christ.

Let us be clear: He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

That concerns the armies that He gathers together to crush in the winepress of His wrath at Armegeddon.
Now I agree that to smite the nations with His mouth is also there.

However the shepherd the nations would not mean to shepherd them into the lake of fire.
To shepherd them with the strong rod of His mouth includes guiding them to behave in the new world-wide administration of Christ.

And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:15)

So two actions are seen here:
1.) shepherding
2.) crushing in fury.

In the second Psalm some of the surviving nations who were not crushed as armies at Armegeddon are advized to kiss the Son
submitting in love to His world-wide reign.

Ask of Me, / And I will give the nations as Your inheritance / And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; / You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel.

Now therefore, O kings, be prudent; / Take the admonition, O judges of the earth.
Serve Jehovah with fear, / And rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son / Lest He be angry and you perish from the way; / For His anger may suddenly be kindled. / Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. (Psalm 2:8-12)

For length this post will stop here. I will read all of your comments.

This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

If there is absolutely no one left to reign over the unlikely and illogical conclusion is that
the saints, the sons of God are kings over each other. That makes little sense.

So I advize you to see TWO matters there in Revelation 19:15.
The terrible crushing of the enemies of Christ's second coming and the shepherding in stength to those
terrified, repentent, and responding to the eternal gospel to fear the One shaking the cosmos as the unique Creator.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (Rev. 14:6,7)

If you still doubt remember that Paul says man is without excuse to not believe in the Creator of the universe.
The eternal gospel is this eternal revelation that God has created all things. This will neutralize the threat
to some in the GT that the Antichrist man sitting in the temple in Jerusalem is god to be worshipped or else.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.
For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse; (Rom. 1:18-20)

We Christians in the church age are commissioned though to preach the gospel of the Son of God.
This "eternal gospel" (Rev. 14:6,7) of the Creator is preached supernaturally by an angel/s to counter the threat of Antichrist.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The defeated Christians do not enter into the millennial kingdom. They go to something called "the outer darkness."

And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 25:30)

Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 22:13)

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:12)

These verses have to do with discipline or reward AFTER the second coming of Christ.
The Apostle John warns of the possibility of being put to shame from Him at His coming.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

The same writer's longing was that those under his care would win "a full reward" implying that a non-full
reward was possible.

Look to yourselves that you do not lose the things which we wrought, but that you may receive a full reward. (2 John 8)

Why should it be difficult to imagine that a remnant will receive reward at the time of Christ's coming?

Paul himself was concerned that he would not be disapproved concerning reward. This implies a remnant are rewarded as well.
But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved. (1 Cor. 9:27)

So he and his apostolic team sought to present every man "full-grown" in Christ.
. . . Christ in you, the hope of glory,
Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom
that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; (Col. 1:27b,28)


The reference to His wrath "without mixture" is in Revelation 14 concerning those who receive the mark of the beast or the number of his name.

There is no such thing as "defeated Christians" and there no such thing as a future "millennial kingdom." And no Christian go into "the outer darkness." These are all your own ideas. You are building an argument on sand.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Reading Revelation carefully we do see that SOME during that time out of terror will repent.
They may not know that much. Maybe in those days it will be difficult to even get a Bible in some places.
But apparently SOME of the nations repent.

Ie. And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake, and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. (Rev. 11:13)

Do you think these who became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven will also join Antichrist's army to
war against the descending Lamb and King of kings? I do not believe so.

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of Him who sits on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:19-21)

Unless you believe that the saints reign over each other, there must be SOME peoples during that time for the sons
of God to shepherd and reign over with Christ.



That concerns the armies that He gathers together to crush in the winepress of His wrath at Armegeddon.
Now I agree that to smite the nations with His mouth is also there.

However the shepherd the nations would not mean to shepherd them into the lake of fire.
To shepherd them with the strong rod of His mouth includes guiding them to behave in the new world-wide administration of Christ.

And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:15)

So two actions are seen here:
1.) shepherding
2.) crushing in fury.

In the second Psalm some of the surviving nations who were not crushed as armies at Armegeddon are advized to kiss the Son
submitting in love to His world-wide reign.

Ask of Me, / And I will give the nations as Your inheritance / And the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; / You will shatter them like a potter’s vessel.

Now therefore, O kings, be prudent; / Take the admonition, O judges of the earth.
Serve Jehovah with fear, / And rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son / Lest He be angry and you perish from the way; / For His anger may suddenly be kindled. / Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. (Psalm 2:8-12)

For length this post will stop here. I will read all of your comments.



If there is absolutely no one left to reign over the unlikely and illogical conclusion is that
the saints, the sons of God are kings over each other. That makes little sense.

So I advize you to see TWO matters there in Revelation 19:15.
The terrible crushing of the enemies of Christ's second coming and the shepherding in stength to those
terrified, repentent, and responding to the eternal gospel to fear the One shaking the cosmos as the unique Creator.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (Rev. 14:6,7)

If you still doubt remember that Paul says man is without excuse to not believe in the Creator of the universe.
The eternal gospel is this eternal revelation that God has created all things. This will neutralize the threat
to some in the GT that the Antichrist man sitting in the temple in Jerusalem is god to be worshipped or else.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.
For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse; (Rom. 1:18-20)

We Christians in the church age are commissioned though to preach the gospel of the Son of God.
This "eternal gospel" (Rev. 14:6,7) of the Creator is preached supernaturally by an angel/s to counter the threat of Antichrist.

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters.

Not so! After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19. There are no wicked left to inherit a future millennium, as Premil contends. They are completely wiped out. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

 

[oikonomia]

There is no such thing as "defeated Christians" and there no such thing as a future "millennial kingdom." And no Christian go into "the outer darkness." These are all your own ideas. You are building an argument on sand.

Ultimately I fully agree that all in Christ but not eventually overcome.
But how do you think about these admonishments from Paul to the church in Corinth?

Already then it is altogether a defeat to you that you have lawsuits with one another.
Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?

But you wrong and defraud, and this your brothers.(1 Cor. 6:6,7)

 

[oikonomia]

There is no such thing as "defeated Christians" and there no such thing as a future "millennial kingdom." And no Christian go into "the outer darkness." These are all your own ideas. You are building an argument on sand.

First Corinthians 1:6 proves some Christians could be defeated if they neglected Christ's all-sufficient grace
to overcome strife and lawsuits among themselves.

Paul also says it must inevitably be manifested that some are approved (overcoming) and others are not (in defeat).

For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:18,19)

You may pronounce with confident aplumb "and there is no such thing as a future millennial kingdom" but the case
you make has to demonstrate that. As for my argument built on sand, no. The Lord said that to not build our house on His words is to build a house on sand.

Everyone therefore who hears these words of Mine and does them shall be likened to a prudent man who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they dashed against that house; and it fell, and its fall was great. (Matt. 7:24-27)

What I have presented is that built upon the Lord's words. Especially concerning His teaching of the kingdom of the heavens -
that is the kingdom whose origin and source is not of this world but of heaven.

I have yet to get into your explanations from the book of Acts.