Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[iamlamad]

Is there a Millennium in your mind?

Blade

Of course! It will begin right after the Jesus returns some unknown time after the 70th week ends. After all, it is written!

 

[Meester-Chung]

it means 1260 years of papal rule during the dark ages where over 50 million people where killed for not submitting to papal rule

 

[Bladerunner]

Of course! It will begin right after the Jesus returns some unknown time after the 70th week ends. After all, it is written!

So your saying Daniel's 70th week is an unknown period of time.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

it means 1260 years of papal rule during the dark ages where over 50 million people where killed for not submitting to papal rule

that is not a good thought?

Blade

 

[sparow]

Perhaps if you are a Jew, maybe not.

Romans 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I am not a Jew, I am a Israelite, not that it would worry me if I were a Jew.

Not all gentiles, (according to Paul) do by nature the things contained in the Law; possibly only those converted. Having the Law written on ones heart does not mean one will do or that one will not sin; it means one is now without excuse. Is the daily sacrifice discontinued; or is Christ the daily sacrifice? The daily sacrifice is for sins committed in ignorance; if Christ is our daily sacrifice for sins committed in ignorance that would mean the Law is not written on any heart yet and ignorance abounds; and the Law is not written on the heart until the last day when the righteous are raised up to eternal life.

John 12:47-48 (NKJV)
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Jesus's words or teaching applies to the world including gentiles.

 

[Meester-Chung]

that is not a good thought?

Blade

it's according to the historicist views of the reformers

 

[iamlamad]

So your saying Daniel's 70th week is an unknown period of time.

Blade

Of course not! That too is written: 1260 times 2. But you know this.

Some think Jesus will return no the 2520th day. I don't think so. That is when many will be expecting Him. And His coming is shown in chapter 19, not chapter 16 where the week ends.

Of course the millennial reign will not begin until He returns.
The actual end of this millennium will be at the 7th trumpet. And of course the start of the new - but Jesus does not return at the 7th trumpet, nor at the 7th vial.

 

[Bladerunner]

Of course not! That too is written: 1260 times 2. But you know this.

Some think Jesus will return no the 2520th day. I don't think so. That is when many will be expecting Him. And His coming is shown in chapter 19, not chapter 16 where the week ends.

Of course the millennial reign will not begin until He returns.
The actual end of this millennium will be at the 7th trumpet. And of course the start of the new - but Jesus does not return at the 7th trumpet, nor at the 7th vial.

Ah, you are one of these 7 trumpet believers. OooooooK......but reading Revelation Literally, Historically and Grammatically, you are reading it wrong.

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

Ah, you are one of these 7 trumpet believers. OooooooK......but reading Revelation Literally, Historically and Grammatically, you are reading it wrong.

Blade

Ah! You are one of those Historic readers. Good luck with that when the 6th seal hits and then all the rest of Revelation begins to happen - just as John wrote it. By way, I took grammar - loved it!

Please, show us all where I have gone off.

 

[Bladerunner]

Ah! You are one of those Historic readers. Good luck with that when the 6th seal hits and then all the rest of Revelation begins to happen - just as John wrote it. By way, I took grammar - loved it!

Please, show us all where I have gone off.

I read the Bible "Literally, Historically and Grammatically. Revelation is not something you simply pick and choose how and what you want it to say. It is not something to piece together as a jigsaw puzzle. It is written from the 1st chapter to the last in chronological order. Chapter 7 is a interlude or a increase detail of things that happen during this 7 years. CHaptes 10,11,12,13,14 and 15 are also interludes (increased details). The Scroll (not a Book) is given to Jesus Christ. The scroll is written on both side indicating it is a TITLE DEED. OF WHAT? The earth--who Jesus Paid for when He died. His name is on the title deed to Israel.

If and I say If you read the Bible this way, it fits together and you do not have to piece it together. Matthew told you geneology and left out four of the ones you speak of. For if the Son is not biological (as is the case of the Blood Curse), The son is of a legal line. He is still a Son.

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

I read the Bible "Literally, Historically and Grammatically. Revelation is not something you simply pick and choose how and what you want it to say. It is not something to piece together as a jigsaw puzzle. It is written from the 1st chapter to the last in chronological order. Chapter 7 is a interlude or a increase detail of things that happen during this 7 years. CHaptes 10,11,12,13,14 and 15 are also interludes (increased details). The Scroll (not a Book) is given to Jesus Christ. The scroll is written on both side indicating it is a TITLE DEED. OF WHAT? The earth--who Jesus Paid for when He died. His name is on the title deed to Israel.

If and I say If you read the Bible this way, it fits together and you do not have to piece it together. Matthew told you geneology and left out four of the ones you speak of. For if the Son is not biological (as is the case of the Blood Curse), The son is of a legal line. He is still a Son.

Blade

In fact, I believe most of what you wrote. GOOD JOB! I too maintain that ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. That is my axiom on Revelation.
But, there are caveats: John has some parenthesis, and there are some prophecies given.
In general, I say no event in a given chapter will come after some event in a later chapter, or before events in a previous chapter. A parenthesis is an exception.

Chapter 7 is like a curtain closing in a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next act. This is what John is doing: two events MUST be accomplished before John can get to the 7th seal that opens the 70th week: 1, the 144,000 MUST be sealed, and 2, the church must be taken out of the way and to safety in heaven. Then, when these two things are accomplished, the 7th seal can be opened to officially begin the 70th week. But you probably already knew all that.

John called it a book so it is very OK for us to call it a book - but you and I know their "books" were scrolls. But for those who always want to argue, I use book.

I think the book is the lease document to earth - the very lease given to Adam that Satan usurped. But when the 6000 year lease has ended, [at the 7th trumpet] then suddenly Satan will have no more legal hold to anything, and will be case down.

Why do you say I am reading Revelation wrong? (I am not hurt: almost everyone here reads it differently than I do.)

I did not understand your last sentence.

 

[Bladerunner]

In fact, I believe most of what you wrote. GOOD JOB! I too maintain that ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. That is my axiom on Revelation.
But, there are caveats: John has some parenthesis, and there are some prophecies given.
In general, I say no event in a given chapter will come after some event in a later chapter, or before events in a previous chapter. A parenthesis is an exception.

Chapter 7 is like a curtain closing in a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next act. This is what John is doing: two events MUST be accomplished before John can get to the 7th seal that opens the 70th week: 1, the 144,000 MUST be sealed, and 2, the church must be taken out of the way and to safety in heaven. Then, when these two things are accomplished, the 7th seal can be opened to officially begin the 70th week. But you probably already knew all that.

John called it a book so it is very OK for us to call it a book - but you and I know their "books" were scrolls. But for those who always want to argue, I use book.

I think the book is the lease document to earth - the very lease given to Adam that Satan usurped. But when the 6000 year lease has ended, [at the 7th trumpet] then suddenly Satan will have no more legal hold to anything, and will be case down.

Why do you say I am reading Revelation wrong? (I am not hurt: almost everyone here reads it differently than I do.)

I did not understand your last sentence.

Let me try this and I cannot guarantee you will understand ( not your fault but mine).

Seals in order (xxx equals parenthesis)
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- xxxx ----
#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
The xxxx here are Ch. 7

The 7th seal opens 1st trumpet #1
.......#2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
The xxxx here are Ch. 10,11,12,13,14

The 7th trumpet opens 1st Bowl #1
.......#2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
the xxxx here is Rev 16:15-16

The 7th Bowls brings everything to an end!

I think you will find the actual sequence as in Daniel is Rev chapter 7 is prior to Chapter 6.

Reasoning: The seals are the beginning of a period of time between the removal of the Restrainer and the signing of the covenant between Israel and "Death and HELL". There is a Gap period here (as seen in Daniel 9: 25, Gap(26), 27). This Gap period allows the Pseudo Christ to become a leader in the world. As we see in Rev 6:2..The one on the White Horse is the Pseudo Christ being sent to earth to conquer through peace. He has a Bow (significant on its own) but has no arrows. He was given a crown (stephanos- victors crown). The first word of verse 3 is "WHEN" He (Jesus) opened the 2nd seal, The Covenant has already been signed,and the wrath of GOD is upon the world for 7 years.

This is how I go about reading and understanding the Book of revelation. In it's 404 pages, over 830 references to the Old Testament are made. It is the only book in the bible that give the reader a blessing and it is the only book in the bible that gives the reader an outline of the whole Book.

**********replies to your statements:

The WOrds in a Parenthesis: "a qualifying, explanatory, or appositive word, phrase, clause, or sentence that interrupts a syntactic construction without otherwise affecting it, having often a characteristic intonation and indicated in writing by commas, parentheses, or dashes, as in William Smith—you must know him—is coming tonight."

Yes, in Chapter 7, the 144,000 must be sealed. However, in Rev 7:3..God tells the Angels, "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Hurt not the earth.......yet in chapter 6:4.."And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

The two would contradict each other unless chapter 7 was before chapter 6. As a parenthesis, These could very well be in front of chapter 6 without disturbing the chronological order of the book.

(i.e. In Daniel, the chapters line up as chapters 1,2,3,4,7,8,5,9,6,10-12)
*******

I am not so sure about the lease. Where did you get that. The Word of GOD, the Bible, KJV version, is an integrated divine piece of work that only a GOD could put together. Rem. over 1500 years 66 chapters, 40 writers, one author has continued to keep HIS word pure for us all to see. In addition, it can be proven.

I think I said, I read the Bible Literally, Historically and Grammatically. God has a way of using punctuation to accent what He wants us to understand. He uses Puns among other things. Over the years, the more I read the Bible literally, the more literal I get. God says what He means and Means what He says.
Only man has the audacity to take His Word and allagorize, symbolize,etc.

I am not sure which way you read the Bible but as you said it is different fro the rest of us. Mos Churches in the US, don't tell their partitioners the whole truth nor do they want them to know. It any more is all about money and power.

I don't propose to know it all, but if I can help you see a different view that would open up all of the Bible without leaving out or adding anything for you, I will.

One other point; Daniel 12:4.."But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

This "knowledge" may refer to society (computers, etc) but it also applies to the Bible. As time goes by, knowledge of the Bible increases, through scientific discoveries, archeological discoveries, Technical advances (i.e electron microscope, etc).

My grandfather a Baptist Preacher in His early years (prior to 1945) would not have considered that the whole world could be destroyed (except through GOD)by Mankind. In the 1800's it would be hard to believe the whole world would fall to the knife and the sword. Yet, to day, we have opened the Bible even further by understanding that some of the WORD of GOD is referring to our military capabilities of today.

Nuclear--Mat 24:22, Ezk 38 & 39;
Neutron Bomb, Zak 14:12;
Cruise Missles; Jer 50:9 "........their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain." the arrows are as the mighty expert man (smart arrows or smart missles)
everyone of them will hit their target (none return in vain)

"Knowledge increases", therefore, I keep my mind open with the exception of one thing. The Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4).
By keeping my mind open, I can find those gifts God has planted in the Bible for us to find. Rem, HE said in Prob 25:2.."It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Rem, the true CHristians, (body of Christ and his Bride) will become Kings and Priest. We are the ones who need to find what GOD has concealed.

Hope you have a blessed evening my friend and hopefully brother.

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

Let me try this and I cannot guarantee you will understand ( not your fault but mine).

Seals in order (xxx equals parenthesis)
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- xxxx ----
#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
The xxxx here are Ch. 7

The 7th seal opens 1st trumpet #1
.......#2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
The xxxx here are Ch. 10,11,12,13,14

The 7th trumpet opens 1st Bowl #1
.......#2 #3 #4 #5 #6 xxxx #7
the xxxx here is Rev 16:15-16

The 7th Bowls brings everything to an end!
Blade

I understand. Good job.

What you are calling a parenthesis, I call an intermission. It is just a term.
An example of a parenthesis is shown in Rev. 12:1-5.
You see, the 7th trumpet has just sounded, marking the exact midpoint of the week - the time of the abomination and stopping of the sacrifices - then worship is made - and chapter 12:6 is a second or two after those in Judea have seen the abomination and begin to flee. Then the war in heaven comes - because the 7th trumpet is the signal Michael will use to take Satan down.

In other words, chapter 12 is VERY MUCH a midpoint chapter. The THEME of the chapter is the Dragon. He is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. So what about verses 1-5? They are about Christ's birth and how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a child. They are not in any way a part of the midpoint of the week. When God was teaching me this chapter He said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week - but I CHOSE to show John what the Dragon did when I was a child: those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

Therefore, I classify these first five verses as a parentheis - no bearing on chronology - or we could say a part of another chronology - but Not Revelation chronology.

Then there is another place John uses parenthesis. As He is walking us through time, the seals, the trumpets and finally the vials, there are times he takes us on side journeys or rabbit trails.

Midpoint chapters are 11, 12, 13, and 14. John gives us five examples of events that start at the midpoint and end at or near the end of the week. Two are given in days, two are given in months, and one is given as years. These countdowns prove that chapters 11-13 are midpoint chapters, for they include these countdowns.

Verses 11:1-2 are about the city being trampled by Gentiles. That thought is started and ended in 2 verses....yet the count will continue on to chapter 16 where the week ends. Verse 11:3 is not 42 months later! The timing of this verse is not at first easily found. But my guess is, it will be just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple. He must first enter Jerusalem so he will be in Jerusalem to enter the temple. I think he arrives with Gentile armies that will trample the city.

Verse 12:6 tells us that those in Judea begin to flee - for 1260 days. Yet, 12:7 is not 1260 days later. No, verse 6 gives us the time to start counting down. The end of this count will be in chapter 16. Then in 12:14 there is 3.5 years of protection and feeding. Verse 15 is not 3.5 years later, because verse 14 only gives us the time to begin the countdown. This countdown will end in chapter 16.

So what about the two witnesses? John saw them appear right after the first two verses - the man of sin entering Jerusalem - sudden the two witnesses show up. They show up then because the man of sin just showed up. So they show up just 3.5 days before the abomination. (that is why I think the man of sin shows up then ; they probably arrive a second or two have he arrives - it is only a guess.)

So in 11:3 the countdown begins for the two witnesses. But now John does something he has not done for the 42 months of trampling, or for the 1260 days of fleeing, or for the 3.5 years of protection: He takes us on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - written as a parenthesis.

How do I know this is a parenthesis? Because their countdown, 1260 days, will end in chapter 16 just like the other countdowns. Next, because if it is NOT a parenthesis, then John's chronology is ruined and the 70th week becomes longer than 7 years.

Therefore, 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. John's chronology then is in 11:1-2 John is just days before the abomination. In verse 3 John is just days before the abomination. Then in 11:14 John is a moment before the abomination. And then in 11:15 the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, marking the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and abominates. (I know, not the proper use of the word.)

Then in 12:6, those in Judea have seen the abomination and they begin to flee.

John does the very same thing in chapter 13: takes us down the path of the last half of the week with the Beast and False Prophet showing us what they will do. But then in chapter 14, John is back on his timeline and Just after the midpoint.

This is why I think John's chronology is perfect as written. He never varies from His timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials - meaning he never backs out or writes something out of order. In other words, something written in a given chapter will always take place AFTER events of a previous chapter and BEFORE events of a later chapter.
Do you agree?

 

[iamlamad]

I think you will find the actual sequence as in Daniel is Rev chapter 7 is prior to Chapter 6.

Reasoning: The seals are the beginning of a period of time between the removal of the Restrainer and the signing of the covenant between Israel and "Death and HELL". There is a Gap period here (as seen in Daniel 9: 25, Gap(26), 27). This Gap period allows the Pseudo Christ to become a leader in the world. As we see in Rev 6:2..The one on the White Horse is the Pseudo Christ being sent to earth to conquer through peace. He has a Bow (significant on its own) but has no arrows. He was given a crown (stephanos- victors crown). The first word of verse 3 is "WHEN" He (Jesus) opened the 2nd seal, The Covenant has already been signed,and the wrath of GOD is upon the world for 7 years.

This is how I go about reading and understanding the Book of revelation. In it's 404 pages, over 830 references to the Old Testament are made. It is the only book in the bible that give the reader a blessing and it is the only book in the bible that gives the reader an outline of the whole Book.

I will agree, the actual rapture (how the great crowd in chapter 7 actually got to the throne) did happen before chapter 7. However, I liken this to a play where the curtain closes so they can rearrange the set to match the next act. Here, the next "act" is the opening of the 70th week (officially opens at the 7th seal). In the mind of God two events absolutely must be accomplished before the 7th seal is opened: (rearranging the set): first, the church must be seen safely in heaven. Check! Done. John SAW them around the throne. Two, the 144,000 MUST be sealed for their protection before the 7th seal is opened. John saw this accomplished.

So in chapter 7, these two events are accomplished. When does the sealing begin? Before the 6th seal? I doubt it. I think it will begin right where John shows it.

The seals are the beginning of a period of time between the removal of the Restrainer and the signing of the covenant between Israel and "Death and HELL"

I don't think so. Only seals 6 & 7 fit that description. Seals 1 through 5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended - shown to us in chapter 5. I agree with you on seals 6 & 7.

The "gap" in Daniel 9 has been the church age. The 70th week is just about to begin. We are very close to the end of the 6000 years since Adam.

You are mistaken on the white horse and rider. Your timing is far far off. Leave this horse and rider in its context, and you will see the timing is 32 AD - the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I have to post this: by computer has messed up.

People always want to pull the first seal out of its first century context! That is a no no! Did you count that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation? The other 16 times it was to represent righteousness. I can assure you, God would never use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something evil!

The truth is, the color white represents righteousness, since the early church was the ONLY righteous entity on earth at the time. The horse represents war. The crown represents victory. The "when" HAS TO BE in the context of chapter 5: the time when Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down.

The first seal is the church, sent out with the Gospel. This rider has weapons, but they are spiritual, for the overthrow of strongholds. Satan was not just going to step back and allow the gospel to advance: it would take conquering and overcoming to spread the gospel.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. He was allowed to use wars, famines, and pestilences - but God LIMITED his theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth - of course centered on Jerusalem. These three ride together, NOT with the white horse and rider - another proof that the white horse and rider is the church.

Finally, seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age: again Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. Stop and think: if they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they had only to wait to the end of 7 years - so no need to ask. They would also know, the 7th week IS judgment time and as they were asking God was seeking justice - so again no need for them to ask.

However, take Stephen for example: when he was murdered, he had no clue how long the church age would last - before judgment would start. That is why they asked. They were told they would have to wait for the full number. And the answer given is a hint to the time of the rapture: what would cause the very last martyr of the church age? Of course the END of the church age. The rapture will end the church age, for the moment after the rapture starts the Day of the Lord.

This is how I read it. ;-) Be blessed!

 

[iamlamad]

**********replies to your statements:

The WOrds in a Parenthesis: "a qualifying, explanatory, or appositive word, phrase, clause, or sentence that interrupts a syntactic construction without otherwise affecting it, having often a characteristic intonation and indicated in writing by commas, parentheses, or dashes, as in William Smith—you must know him—is coming tonight."

Yes, in Chapter 7, the 144,000 must be sealed. However, in Rev 7:3..God tells the Angels, "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Hurt not the earth.......yet in chapter 6:4.."And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

The two would contradict each other unless chapter 7 was before chapter 6. As a parenthesis, These could very well be in front of chapter 6 without disturbing the chronological order of the book.

Hurting the earth is what happens when the trumpet judgments begin: burning up all the grass, 1/3 of the trees, turning 1/3 of the seas into blood, and turning 1/3 of the fresh water into blood. Notice: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees...these are exactly what gets "hurt" in the first trumpet judgments!

What would be the 1/4 of the earth centered on Jerusalem? It would include Europe and Africa plus the Middle East. Where did the two world wars start? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice, killing around 1/3 of the people each time? Of course Europe. Where have the famines been in my lifetime? Africa. Where do missionaries go when a war starts? They are sent home. Where do missionaries go when a plague starts? Again, they go home - unless it is John G Lake! He stayed.

Make no mistake, these three horses and riders, the Red, the Black and the pale have been at work since the beginning. By the way, there is a list of wars of the first 1000 years since Jesus, in Europe: I have seen in online. I was amazed: there was hardly ANY time in those years that someone was not fighting someone else. It was the devil trying to stop or slow down the advance of the gospel.

 

[iamlamad]

(i.e. In Daniel, the chapters line up as chapters 1,2,3,4,7,8,5,9,6,10-12)
*******

I am not so sure about the lease. Where did you get that. The Word of GOD, the Bible, KJV version, is an integrated divine piece of work that only a GOD could put together. Rem. over 1500 years 66 chapters, 40 writers, one author has continued to keep HIS word pure for us all to see. In addition, it can be proven.

Blade

I have found it several times on the net: something written by ancient Jewish sages: that because God created the universe in 6 days, and rested the 7th, then man would rule the word for 6 days (6000 years) and God would rule the world for the 7th thousand years.

Something written many hundreds of years BC - as if they had already read the book of Revelation - got my attention.

Next, consider that chronologists - people that have studied bible chronology for many years, think we are very very close to 6000 years right now. (The Jews are way off.) Then we have read Rev. 20 and we know there will be a thousand year reign of Christ. Therefore I tend to believe what those ancient sages wrote. I meditated on the book for a long time, wondering what it was - why it was so important. I discovered that inside the book is where the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to God. And then war in heaven and Satan cast down. Why there? Why ever? What could end Satan's reign? His ONLY claiim to earth is that he usurped Adam's authority and rulership and took Adam's place AND His authority over the earth.

It seems then that Adam must have been given a 6000 year lease. And that lease will end or expire at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. At that moment, suddenly Satan will have no more legal hold to the earth. No wonder John wept much when "no man was found" worthy to open the seals. He seemed to know how important that was.

You see, if no man had EVER been found, then the seals would remain on the book, the 6000 years would turn into 7000 and 8000 and Satan would remain the god of this world. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy!

Be blessed, my brother!

 

[Bladerunner]

I understand. Good job.

What you are calling a parenthesis, I call an intermission. It is just a term.
An example of a parenthesis is shown in Rev. 12:1-5.
You see, the 7th trumpet has just sounded, marking the exact midpoint of the week - the time of the abomination and stopping of the sacrifices - then worship is made - and chapter 12:6 is a second or two after those in Judea have seen the abomination and begin to flee. Then the war in heaven comes - because the 7th trumpet is the signal Michael will use to take Satan down.

iamlamad, I don't read it that way. In Rev 11:5, the 7th trumpet is sounded yet the 1st Bowl has not been thrown down by GOD. All the events that happen during this time are highlighted in chapters after the 6th trumpet to the 7th trumpet and after the 7th trumpet to the 1st bowl judgement.

After the 6th trumpet to the 7th Trumpet, we see the 2 million man army from the east killing 1/3 of all men except Israel/Jerusalem. through all of this, we see that these earth dwellers would not repent.

In chapter 10 (still between the 6th and 7th trumpet), we see John given the little Book to eat. This appears to be a smaller version of the scroll Jesus Christ opened in chapt. 6.

The meaning (most likely) of having John eat the Book is telling us to indulge in this book and make it a part of us. We will see that it is Sweet for the judgements of those hard core criminals and is Bitter for the death of those that might have been saved, should we have had a little more time.

Something strange (very strange) is the what the 7 thunders had uttered. Yet, these were sealed up and from what I can read, have not been revealed anywhere in the Bible. Very Strange as this book, unlike Daniel's 12:9 cwas sealed until "The time of the end"

In chapter 11, John is given instructions to measure the new temple. He also tells us that the "time of the gentiles" has not been fulfilled YET? Rev 11:2......

God sends his two witness down to Jerusalem, The everlasting Gospel (the Gospel of the Millennium) is preached. Note: this alone prevents the Church from being raptured later than chapter 4. We cannot preach a different Gospel. Back to the two witnesses, it tells us the their story from beginning to end.

The 7th Trumpet is sounded in Rev 11:15. The voices in heaven are telling us Jesus is retaking the Kingdoms of the earth from Satan. The WHole earth was mad a GOD for these plagues,etc.

After the 7th trumpet, Chapter 12, are given the story of Jesus Christ and Satan fromt he beginning. The Woman is Israel as the Child is Jesus Christ. NOTE: This could also mean the Body of Christ being raptured. This setup of 12 stars, moon and sun happened in 2017 on Rosh Hashanah. Using the star charts, it was the only time it would happen within a 7000 period.

The people as you say are fleeing the AoD and will protected by GOD for 42 months or 1260 days,etc. This is the beginning of the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. (For they would only flee when the AoD happened.)

We also see the war in Heaven ending with Michael(the archangel) and 2/3 of the angels throwing satan and His followers out of Heaven. NOTE: from the time of the fall of Satan from Grace (from the beginning), satan and his angels seem to have had access to Heaven as we see in Job, etc.

In chapter 13, another parenthesis, describes what John sees on the Beach. The Beast (antichrist and the false prophet. Yet, these two were prevalent in the beginning after rev 6:2. ( as I said a parenthesis)

In chapter 14, another parenthesis, we find the LAMB standing on Mt. Zion. Jesus has returned to earth HERE!.. With Him are the 144,000 Jewish evangelist (part of the first fruits). They are taken to Heaven and are redeemed.

Numerous other items happen in chapter 14 prior to the beginning of the 1st Bowls being given out From God himself in Chapter 15.

In other words, chapter 12 is VERY MUCH a midpoint chapter. The THEME of the chapter is the Dragon. He is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. So what about verses 1-5? They are about Christ's birth and how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a child. They are not in any way a part of the midpoint of the week. When God was teaching me this chapter He said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week - but I CHOSE to show John what the Dragon did when I was a child: those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."
[/QUOTES]

WOW.....GOD showed you what you needed to show JOHN???????????????????


Therefore, I classify these first five verses as a parentheis - no bearing on chronology - or we could say a part of another chronology - but Not Revelation chronology.

Then there is another place John uses parenthesis. As He is walking us through time, the seals, the trumpets and finally the vials, there are times he takes us on side journeys or rabbit trails.

Midpoint chapters are 11, 12, 13, and 14. John gives us five examples of events that start at the midpoint and end at or near the end of the week. Two are given in days, two are given in months, and one is given as years. These countdowns prove that chapters 11-13 are midpoint chapters, for they include these countdowns.

Verses 11:1-2 are about the city being trampled by Gentiles. That thought is started and ended in 2 verses....yet the count will continue on to chapter 16 where the week ends. Verse 11:3 is not 42 months later! The timing of this verse is not at first easily found. But my guess is, it will be just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple. He must first enter Jerusalem so he will be in Jerusalem to enter the temple. I think he arrives with Gentile armies that will trample the city.

Verse 12:6 tells us that those in Judea begin to flee - for 1260 days. Yet, 12:7 is not 1260 days later. No, verse 6 gives us the time to start counting down. The end of this count will be in chapter 16. Then in 12:14 there is 3.5 years of protection and feeding. Verse 15 is not 3.5 years later, because verse 14 only gives us the time to begin the countdown. This countdown will end in chapter 16.

So what about the two witnesses? John saw them appear right after the first two verses - the man of sin entering Jerusalem - sudden the two witnesses show up. They show up then because the man of sin just showed up. So they show up just 3.5 days before the abomination. (that is why I think the man of sin shows up then ; they probably arrive a second or two have he arrives - it is only a guess.)

So in 11:3 the countdown begins for the two witnesses. But now John does something he has not done for the 42 months of trampling, or for the 1260 days of fleeing, or for the 3.5 years of protection: He takes us on a SIDE journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only - written as a parenthesis.

How do I know this is a parenthesis? Because their countdown, 1260 days, will end in chapter 16 just like the other countdowns. Next, because if it is NOT a parenthesis, then John's chronology is ruined and the 70th week becomes longer than 7 years.

Therefore, 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. John's chronology then is in 11:1-2 John is just days before the abomination. In verse 3 John is just days before the abomination. Then in 11:14 John is a moment before the abomination. And then in 11:15 the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, marking the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and abominates. (I know, not the proper use of the word.)

Then in 12:6, those in Judea have seen the abomination and they begin to flee.

John does the very same thing in chapter 13: takes us down the path of the last half of the week with the Beast and False Prophet showing us what they will do. But then in chapter 14, John is back on his timeline and Just after the midpoint.

This is why I think John's chronology is perfect as written. He never varies from His timeline of the seals, trumpets and vials - meaning he never backs out or writes something out of order. In other words, something written in a given chapter will always take place AFTER events of a previous chapter and BEFORE events of a later chapter.
Do you agree?

Blade

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad, I don't read it that way. In Rev 11:5, the 7th trumpet is sounded yet the 1st Bowl has not been thrown down by GOD. All the events that happen during this time are highlighted in chapters after the 6th trumpet to the 7th trumpet and after the 7th trumpet to the 1st bowl judgement.

After the 6th trumpet to the 7th Trumpet, we see the 2 million man army from the east killing 1/3 of all men except Israel/Jerusalem. through all of this, we see that these earth dwellers would not repent.

In chapter 10 (still between the 6th and 7th trumpet), we see John given the little Book to eat. This appears to be a smaller version of the scroll Jesus Christ opened in chapt. 6.

The meaning (most likely) of having John eat the Book is telling us to indulge in this book and make it a part of us. We will see that it is Sweet for the judgements of those hard core criminals and is Bitter for the death of those that might have been saved, should we have had a little more time.
...
Blade

I don't see a lot of difference in your reading and mine.
Why would anyone expect a bowl to be poured out at the time of the 7th trumpet? God will use the bowls and associated plagues to SHORTEN the days of GT, therefore they will come late in the last half of the week: notice they are in chapter 16.

Truthfully, it is where the 7th trumpet is that got my attention. It is a realtime event (of the seals, trumpets and vials) but it appears to be sounded in the middle of an intermission. Imagine you are watched the nutcraker at a big theater, and just before Clara throws her shoe, the play is stopped for the midpoint intermission - and everyone is reminded of all the delicious snacks in the lobby. You rise with everyone else, and make you way slowly to the end of your aisle, and suddenly the curtain opens, Clara throws her shoe and hits king mouse, the curtain closes again - and it seems everyone MISSED the most critical point of the play! This is what John does when he sounds the 7th trumpet!

You see, one day I was reading Daniel 9, just minding my own business, and in verse 27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" suddenly God spoke! I heard these words: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I was suddenly "in the spirit" and could not move or speak - but my spirit man answered: "how would I find that?"

He spoke again: "Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

I searched for maybe 3 weeks, trying to find something "clearly marked." That is when I saw that the 7th trumpet was sounded right in the middle of the midpoint intermission. I instantly saw that the midpoint was marked by a "7." I flipped pages quickly to the 7th vial and saw that the lastt three words were, "it is done." Another translation has "It is finished." I knew at that moment I had found what Jesus had sent me to find. I flipped even faster to the 6th seal and saw the 30 minutes of silence, and then was sure I had found the entire 70th week, "clearly marked."

Since then I discovered that the fleeing in 12:6 - which will happen very shortly after the abomination - is just after the 7th trumpet. That is the easiest way to find the exact midpoint Back up verse by verse from 12:6 and look for a mainline event: a seal, a trumpet or a vial. You will find the 7th trumpet.

Once I understood from the Author's point of view, that the seals were not in the 70th week, I went back to chapter 4 and began to bug God to show me there how the seals were not a part of the week. That is when He showed my - by asking me three questions I could not answer - that that vision of the throne room was a vision of the past that shows the very time that Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down (chapter 5). This is the CONTEXT of the first seal. I discovered that the first 5 seals were opened right then, when Jesus ascended. But at the 5th seal - the seal for the martyrs of the church age, the first long wait: they are told they must wait for judgment for the very last martyr killed as they were. God is waiting for that last martyr of the church age. So what would cause the last martyr? Of course the END of the church age. It will end at the rapture. A moment later will be Day of the Lord timing.

I began to realize then that God marched right through time, starting with the early church, and advanced through the church age, then through the 70th week, then on to the 1000 year reign, in PERFECT Chronology, as far is is possible when 5 countdowns are happening at the same time.

I think that 200 million army is from heaven. I think they are angels. There is too much supernatural about them. (Just my opinion.) I don't think it tells us "except Israel."

No one knows what the little book is - unless God has told someone.

 

[iamlamad]

Something strange (very strange) is the what the 7 thunders had uttered. Yet, these were sealed up and from what I can read, have not been revealed anywhere in the Bible. Very Strange as this book, unlike Daniel's 12:9 cwas sealed until "The time of the end"

In chapter 11, John is given instructions to measure the new temple. He also tells us that the "time of the gentiles" has not been fulfilled YET? Rev 11:2......
Blade

I doubt if anyone knows what the 7 thunders are - although some people claim to know. It is possible God has revealed it to someone.

John is told that the Gentile will trample the city for 42 months. I believe that is the man of sin with his Gentile armies suddenly arrive in Jerusalem. He MUST arrive in Jerusalem because he will enter the temple in Jerusalem. I also suspect these armies will be Muslim. Just my opinion.
The two witnesses show up because he showed up, and my guess is, only seconds after he arrives When we study them, we can discover that they arrive just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then are resurrected. I believe ALL the Old Testament saints are resurrected at the 7th vail, because of the terrible earthquake. This would include many from before the flood.

The "time of the Gentiles" (Luke) will be over when Jesus comes and kills them all at Armageddon. Again, just my opinion.

 

[iamlamad]

God sends his two witness down to Jerusalem, The everlasting Gospel (the Gospel of the Millennium) is preached. Note: this alone prevents the Church from being raptured later than chapter 4. We cannot preach a different Gospel. Back to the two witnesses, it tells us the their story from beginning to end.

The 7th Trumpet is sounded in Rev 11:15. The voices in heaven are telling us Jesus is retaking the Kingdoms of the earth from Satan. The WHole earth was mad a GOD for these plagues,etc.
Blade

John does not tell us that the two witness preach the gospel - any kind of Gospel. They "testify." That is all John tells us. Unless God tells me, I will not add to the book. However, sometimes knowledge comes by download, without words. When Jesus said I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" I suddenly knew why: He would use the same marked." That knowledge did not come through words - I just suddenly knew. Your note then seems to me to be bogus. The two witnesses are not "we" as in the church. They are Old Testament saints. They can preach whatever God tells them to say.

Yes, in chapter 11 John gives us the entire story of the two witness, but from verse 4 to 13 it is a parenthesis. They are killed just before the 7th VIAL, not just before the 7th trumpet as it appears at first reading.

Another thing I seem to know, but did not hear words telling me: the reason the Kingdoms are taken from Satan and given to Jesus: Adam's lease has expired. It was a 6000 year lease. It is the book that was in the Father's right hand. When the 6000 years are up, suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth and the loses his "god of this world" position and is then cast down.

No plagues yet! At this time the world has only seen the judgment of the trumpets. They are bad, but cannot be compared to the vials and plagues.