Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Billy Evmur]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

It all depends on what people call the Great Tribulation....is it the great end-times persecution that Jesus warns? or is it the wrath of God poured out upon the wicked nations?

If it is the latter then you MUST be pretib rap for it is the most certain thing that God cannot pour His fury upon the church...impossible

But if it is the former then you MUST be post trib rap because Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory...and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven."

Further to that Paul makes it perfectly clear that when the Lord returns in the clouds He will destroy the man of sin or Antichrist...but this is the END of Antichrist, not his beginning, he will have reigned in the world and will have invaded Jerusalem.

So when the pre tribbers say that Christ comes then Antichrist is revealed they are askew.

That's what THIS rapture topdog says.

 

[Dave L]

It all depends on what people call the Great Tribulation....is it the great end-times persecution that Jesus warns? or is it the wrath of God poured out upon the wicked nations?

If it is the latter then you MUST be pretib rap for it is the most certain thing that God cannot pour His fury upon the church...impossible

But if it is the former then you MUST be post trib rap because Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory...and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven."

Further to that Paul makes it perfectly clear that when the Lord returns in the clouds He will destroy the man of sin or Antichrist...but this is the END of Antichrist, not his beginning, he will have reigned in the world and will have invaded Jerusalem.

So when the pre tribbers say that Christ comes then Antichrist is revealed they are askew.

That's what THIS rapture topdog says.

The only rapture mentioned in scripture happens after the resurrection on the last day.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)

 

[mkgal1]

......and even then, I don't believe we (Christians) are "going up to heaven" but, instead, will escort the Lord back to earth just as in the ancient times a visiting emperor would be greeted and escorted back into town.

 

[Dave L]

......and even then, I don't believe we (Christians) are "going up to heaven" but, instead, will escort the Lord back to earth just as in the ancient times a visiting emperor would be greeted and escorted back into town.

As far as I know, the universe explodes and God creates the new heavens and earth on the same day as the rapture.

 

[mkgal1]

As far as I know, the universe explodes and God creates the new heavens and earth on the same day as the rapture.

That's not what I believe. God is restoring all His creation. The "new heaven/new earth" has to do with the intersection of God and humanity and His covenants - which happened when Jesus came to earth. The ancient Jews perceived their temple as the place where God and humanity intersected......when that was destroyed....and the ordination of the New Covenant came....then the "new heaven/new earth" began....and the old covenant became "obsolete" even "vanished" as Hebrews 8:13 states (Hebrews was written prior to 70 A.D. - so it was still future tense, now is past tense):

Hebrewa 8:13 - In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.​

 

[Dave L]

That's not what I believe. God is restoring all His creation. The "new heaven/new earth" has to do with the intersection of God and humanity and His covenants - which happened when Jesus came to earth. The ancient Jews perceived their temple as the place where God and humanity intersected......when that was destroyed....and the ordination of the New Covenant came....then the "new heaven/new earth" began....and the old covenant became "obsolete" even "vanished" as Hebrews 8:13 states (Hebrews was written prior to 70 A.D. - so it was still future tense, now is past tense):

In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.​

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

 

[Billy Evmur]

The only rapture mentioned in scripture happens after the resurrection on the last day.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)

Slower
1.Cor.15 teaches the resurrection happens "each" in his own order
First. Christ the firstfruits ...THEN
second. then at His coming those who belong to Him....THEN
third. then comes the end when He shall delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authoritty and power. For He must FIRST REIGN until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Now you see Christ was first to rise THEN those who are his at His coming

just a minute that 2,000 years and counting a huge gap

THEN...that's another gap for He must first reign [for a thousand years]

2.Thess. confirms that when He comes we rise to meet Him, it says nothing about a general resurrection and judgement at that time.

Only Paul understood the church among the nations, only Paul understood the rapture. Peter writes specifically about the Day of the Lord being as a 1,000 years as our brother Paul writes in his letters...things that be difficult to understand.

The Jerusalem crowd talk about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the universe.

Paul speaks about the creation groaning with us in travail to be released from it's bondage to decay. The Jerusalem apostles are not wrong but they do not know about the intervening 1,000 years, the millennium.

 

[Dave L]

Slower
1.Cor.15 teaches the resurrection happens "each" in his own order
First. Christ the firstfruits ...THEN
second. then at His coming those who belong to Him....THEN
third. then comes the end when He shall delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authoritty and power. For He must FIRST REIGN until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Now you see Christ was first to rise THEN those who are his at His coming

just a minute that 2,000 years and counting a huge gap

THEN...that's another gap for He must first reign [for a thousand years]

2.Thess. confirms that when He comes we rise to meet Him, it says nothing about a general resurrection and judgement at that time.

Only Paul understood the church among the nations, only Paul understood the rapture. Peter writes specifically about the Day of the Lord being as a 1,000 years as our brother Paul writes in his letters...things that be difficult to understand.

The Jerusalem crowd talk about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the universe.

Paul speaks about the creation groaning with us in travail to be released from it's bondage to decay. The Jerusalem apostles are not wrong but they do not know about the intervening 1,000 years, the millennium.

But it happens on the last day AFTER the resurrection.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Slower
1.Cor.15 teaches the resurrection happens "each" in his own order
First. Christ the firstfruits ...THEN
second. then at His coming those who belong to Him....THEN
third. then comes the end when He shall delivers the kingdom to God the Father AFTER destroying every rule and every authoritty and power. For He must FIRST REIGN until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Now you see Christ was first to rise THEN those who are his at His coming

just a minute that 2,000 years and counting a huge gap

THEN...that's another gap for He must first reign [for a thousand years]

2.Thess. confirms that when He comes we rise to meet Him, it says nothing about a general resurrection and judgement at that time.

Only Paul understood the church among the nations, only Paul understood the rapture. Peter writes specifically about the Day of the Lord being as a 1,000 years as our brother Paul writes in his letters...things that be difficult to understand.

The Jerusalem crowd talk about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the universe.

Paul speaks about the creation groaning with us in travail to be released from it's bondage to decay. The Jerusalem apostles are not wrong but they do not know about the intervening 1,000 years, the millennium.

As you yourself say "the dead in Christ arise at His shout, then WE who are alive and remain are caught up together with them"...this according to John is the first resurrection, the second resurrection takes place after the 1,000 years.

 

[Billy Evmur]

But it happens on the last day AFTER the resurrection.

I showed you the gaps between the first resurrection and the second...read it again

 

[Dave L]

I showed you the gaps between the first resurrection and the second...read it again

You are ignoring the rest of scripture when you draw this conclusion.

 

[Billy Evmur]

But it happens on the last day AFTER the resurrection.

Peter had difficulty in understanding it so do you.

 

[Dave L]

Peter had difficulty in understanding it so do you.

An Apostle had trouble understanding?

 

[Billy Evmur]

You are ignoring the rest of scripture when you draw this conclusion.

Not at all I agree that the end will come with a loud bang etc....after the 1,000 years reign

You are ignoring the 1,000 year reign, I believe ALL the scriptures

 

[Billy Evmur]

An Apostle had trouble understanding?

He said so. You must not ignore scripture

 

[Dave L]

Not at all I agree that the end will come with a loud bang etc....after the 1,000 years reign

You are ignoring the 1,000 year reign, I believe ALL the scriptures

There is no 1000 year millennium. The 1000 years = the binding of Satan. He is loosed when they end.

 

[Billy Evmur]

There is no 1000 year millennium. The 1000 years = the binding of Satan. He is loosed when they end.

Are you saying Satan is at present bound? that he no longer deceives the nations?

 

[Dave L]

Are you saying Satan is at present bound? that he no longer deceives the nations?

Satan is bound by the gospel from deceiving God's elect from among the nations. If you make more that this out of it, you add to Revelation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Satan is bound by the gospel from deceiving God's elect from among the nations. If you make more that this out of it, you add to Revelation.

Oh please
the scripture says simply and plainly that Satan will be bound a 1,000 years and will no longer deceive the nations

YOU have added a great deal in there for it says nothing about God's elect from among the nations. And Satan is not bound by the gospel but by a mighty angel with a chain.

Though I admit he is bound [for us who believe] by the gospel...you can't say the church is the nations

 

[Dave L]

Oh please
the scripture says simply and plainly that Satan will be bound a 1,000 years and will no longer deceive the nations

YOU have added a great deal in there for it says nothing about God's elect from among the nations. And Satan is not bound by the gospel but by a mighty angel with a chain.

Though I admit he is bound [for us who believe] by the gospel...you can't say the church is the nations

The nations = believing gentiles to whom God sends the gospel. If you say Satan is not bound enough, you take away from Revelation.