Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Dave L]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack. (Gary DeMar; “That’s Not in the Bible”)

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

 

[BABerean2]

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

 

[SeventyOne]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

I have no idea what makes a person a 'heavy-weight' in such matters. That seems very subjective to me.

For me, when Paul is describing the rapture as in the dead will rise first, and those alive will follow and we will be caught up to be with the Lord, it seems he's gleaning a lot of that information out of Isaiah 26 where the dead are risen and His people are gathered by Him, and once with Him they are told to enter their chambers. Jesus spoke of these chambers as to where He was going to prepare a place for us.

That time frame is further defined as prior to the Lord pouring out His wrath on the whole earth, at the end of which the Earth will never again cover its slain. That indicates a future time because we are still burying our dead. Rapture before any wrath. Post-trib doesn't fit.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The Gentiles are taken pretrib. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed.

The twelve tribes from around the earth are taken pre wrath. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

The remnant that flees in Israel is protected at Petra.

The reason you can't pinpoint the pretrib rapture is because He tells us that the goodman will not know when he is coming.

The reason that the twelve tribes will know when He is coming is because that day......the day of Lord...won't come as as thief to those that are not in darkness.

 

[LastSeven]

It's all circumstantial evidence.

 

[FenderTL5]

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998.

You mean (or LaHAye means) , Oldest "rapture" view?

..If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

I grew up in a tradition that leaned heavily on the Pre-Tribulation view of a rapture. In fact, when my mom found out that I had been attending and started catechism into Orthodoxy (mind you I was 50 yrs old at the time), her very first question about the Orthodox Church was, "What do they believe about the rapture?"

There's a lot in the Pre-Trib view that is NOT early church teaching.
I can't argue Post-Trib because I'm far less familiar with it.

The Orthodox understanding is in the Creed "He will come again with Glory to judge the living and the dead, His kingdom shall have no end.."
There's no pre nor post rapture taught, merely a second coming and we've been living in the "last days" since Pentecost.
I'm not here to debate, merely stating the early and Orthodox view is not as complicated as some of the later teachings and it aligns with scripture without extraneous explanations.

 

[DavidPT]

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

This above alleged fact is not true of both though. It is only true of one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Obviously---- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him----and----the day of Christ is at hand---this is one and the same event, and that it is also refrring to this----for that day shall not come

And look how Paul starts out verse 3----Let no man deceive you by any means. Apparently some have ignored that warning altogether if they think Paul is teaching a Pretrib rapture here.

Verse 3 is interpreted like such IMO.


Let no man deceive you by any means: that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that the day of Christ is at hand, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If that is not clearly and undeiably teaching PostTrib, I don't know what it is teaching then?

 

[Choose Wisely]

This above alleged fact is not true of both though. It is only true of one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Obviously---- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him----and----the day of Christ is at hand---this is one and the same event, and that it is also refrring to this----for that day shall not come

And look how Paul starts out verse 3----Let no man deceive you by any means. Apparently some have ignored that warning altogether if they think Paul is teaching a Pretrib rapture here.

Verse 3 is interpreted like such IMO.


Let no man deceive you by any means: that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that the day of Christ is at hand, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If that is not clearly and undeiably teaching PostTrib, I don't know what it is teaching then?

I think the question is.......who is being raptured. The Word says that 144000 (12000 from each tribe) are the first fruits of this harvest....so the harvest is the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. God keeps His promises.
The Church is already in heaven, pre trib, before the seals are opened. The ark doors are closed 7 days before the flood.

The flood.......or wrath happens immediately after the tribulation of those days.

 

[BABerean2]

The Gentiles are taken pretrib.

The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".

It began on the day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts of the Apostles 2:36, and about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ.

The Gentiles were grafted into the Church several years later.

I have had those from Jewish backgrounds in my home for Bible study.

You are trying to make the pretrib doctrine work, but it does not match up to what is found in scripture.

.

 

[Chinchilla]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.

The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

By showing that events mentioned by Jesus can't happen in one event , just like you show from OT that Jesus has to come twice at all .

People be like " show me the verse of pre trib rapture " yea , go on and show me the verse that Jesus had to come twice ? How you doing ? You can't .

Exactly what Jews stumbled on , even tho Jesus told them he must suffer first they still had that idea of Kingdom and King first , even John the Baptist .

Same goes for rapture .

 

[LastSeven]

This above alleged fact is not true of both though. It is only true of one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Obviously---- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him----and----the day of Christ is at hand---this is one and the same event, and that it is also refrring to this----for that day shall not come

And look how Paul starts out verse 3----Let no man deceive you by any means. Apparently some have ignored that warning altogether if they think Paul is teaching a Pretrib rapture here.

Verse 3 is interpreted like such IMO.


Let no man deceive you by any means: that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that the day of Christ is at hand, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If that is not clearly and undeiably teaching PostTrib, I don't know what it is teaching then?

What Paul is talking about is the resurrection on the last day. You can call it a "rapture" if you like I suppose, but it's important to note that the righteous and the wicked are raised together. So this idea that only the righteous are raptured up and the wicked left behind, is not scriptural.

 

[DavidPT]

I think the question is.......who is being raptured. The Word says that 144000 (12000 from each tribe) are the first fruits of this harvest....so the harvest is the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. God keeps His promises.
The Church is already in heaven, pre trib, before the seals are opened. The ark doors are closed 7 days before the flood.

The flood.......or wrath happens immediately after the tribulation of those days.

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What do you make of this passage? As in your interpretation.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


How can this---the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 1:7)----not be referring to this----the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him(2 Thessalonians 2:1)?


And how can this----in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 1:8)----not be referring to this----the day of Christ(2 Thessalonians 2:2)?



And finally----for that day shall not come(2 Thessalonians 2:3)----how then can that not be referring to this----the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 1:7)----the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him(2 Thessalonians 2:1)----in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Corinthians 1:8)----the day of Christ(2 Thessalonians 2:2)?


And since it is undeniably referring to those things, what does 2 Thessalonians 2:3 undeniably tell us? Does it not tell us that the rapture can not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

 

[DavidPT]

What Paul is talking about is the resurrection on the last day. You can call it a "rapture" if you like I suppose, but it's important to note that the righteous and the wicked are raised together. So this idea that only the righteous are raptured up and the wicked left behind, is not scriptural.

In context though, such as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, there is no wicked also being raised at that time. But if you insist I am wrong, point out the resurrection of the wicked in the following context.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But if the wicked are not left behind when the righteous are raptured up, how does one explain Revelation 19 then? If that involves the 2nd coming, who is Jesus confronting when He returns, if not the still physically alive wicked? And who is He slaying with the sword of His mouth once He has physically returned, if not the still physically alive wicked? One doesn't slay someone already physically dead, do they? Talk about overkill if that is the case.

 

[Dave L]

By showing that events mentioned by Jesus can't happen in one event , just like you show from OT that Jesus has to come twice at all .

People be like " show me the verse of pre trib rapture " yea , go on and show me the verse that Jesus had to come twice ? How you doing ? You can't .

Exactly what Jews stumbled on , even tho Jesus told them he must suffer first they still had that idea of Kingdom and King first , even John the Baptist .

Same goes for rapture .

The problem with the rapture is that Paul says it happens after the resurrection of the dead. Other passages determine this to be on earth's last day before the creation of the new heavens and earth.

But even the most devout rapturists cannot provide scriptures proving their theory.

 

[Dave L]

This above alleged fact is not true of both though. It is only true of one.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Obviously---- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him----and----the day of Christ is at hand---this is one and the same event, and that it is also refrring to this----for that day shall not come

And look how Paul starts out verse 3----Let no man deceive you by any means. Apparently some have ignored that warning altogether if they think Paul is teaching a Pretrib rapture here.

Verse 3 is interpreted like such IMO.


Let no man deceive you by any means: that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that the day of Christ is at hand, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If that is not clearly and undeiably teaching PostTrib, I don't know what it is teaching then?

You are reading your theory into the text. Paul elsewhere defines what he means placing the rapture after the resurrection of the dead. This happens on the last day.

 

[Dave L]

I have no idea what makes a person a 'heavy-weight' in such matters. That seems very subjective to me.

For me, when Paul is describing the rapture as in the dead will rise first, and those alive will follow and we will be caught up to be with the Lord, it seems he's gleaning a lot of that information out of Isaiah 26 where the dead are risen and His people are gathered by Him, and once with Him they are told to enter their chambers. Jesus spoke of these chambers as to where He was going to prepare a place for us.

That time frame is further defined as prior to the Lord pouring out His wrath on the whole earth, at the end of which the Earth will never again cover its slain. That indicates a future time because we are still burying our dead. Rapture before any wrath. Post-trib doesn't fit.

Yet not one scripture to support pre-trib rapture.....

 

[DavidPT]

You are reading your theory into the text. Paul elsewhere defines what he means placing the rapture after the resurrection of the dead. This happens on the last day.

What theory are you talking about that I'm reading into the text? You disagree that a postTrib rapture is being taught in 2 Thessalonians 2?

You are apparently misunderstanding me somewhere along the line. The only thing I'm doing in this thread is proving PostTrib, therefore disproving Pretrib. And in what post in this thread did I even say anything about the last day one way or another? Where did I ever say in this thread that I disagree the rapture and the resurrection of the righteous dead, that this occurs on the last day? The rapture is in 2 Thessalonians 1:4 13-17. And so is the resurrection of the dead. Yet nowhere in that context is the resurrection of the wicked as well. If they, too, are raised at that exact same time, that makes nonsense out of those Jesus slays in Revelation 19 once He returns. It means they can never be raised from the dead if the resurrection of the wicked already preceded their deaths. It also means they can never appear at the great white throne judgment since that involves rising from the dead in order to appear there. Come on now then, do a little more thinking some of these things through before concluding things that are only leading to nonsensical conclusions.

 

[Dave L]

What theory are you talking about that I'm reading into the text? You disagree that a postTrib rapture is being taught in 2 Thessalonians 2?

You are apparently misunderstanding me somewhere along the line. The only thing I'm doing in this thread is proving PostTrib, therefore disproving Pretrib. And in what post in this thread did I even say anything about the last day one way or another? Where did I ever say in this thread that I disagree the rapture and the resurrection of the righteous dead, that this occurs on the last day? The rapture is in 2 Thessalonians 1:4 13-17. And so is the resurrection of the dead. Yet nowhere in that context is the resurrection of the wicked as well. If they, too, are raised at that exact same time, that makes nonsense out of those Jesus slays in Revelation 19 once He returns. It means they can never be raised from the dead if the resurrection of the wicked already preceded their deaths. It also means they can never appear at the great white throne judgment since that involves rising from the dead in order to appear there. Come on now then, do a little more thinking some of these things through before concluding things that are only leading to nonsensical conclusions.

All three versions of the rapture are false. Not just the pre-trib. As I show, the top dogs admit scripture doesn't support any of the three views.

 

[SeventyOne]

Yet not one scripture to support pre-trib rapture.....

Except what I mentioned of course.

 

[Dave L]

Except what I mentioned of course.

Where in scripture do you find support for your view?