does satan create anything?Lucifer is the source of evil.
He created it and the angels were capable of choosing it, just as they were capable of sinning against man through woman to create giants.
Calvinism excludes (2) but does not exclude (1). Sinners voluntarily sin and regenerate worshippers of God voluntarily worship him. This is all we Calvinists mean when we say "freedom". This is usually what the common person means when they use this word in casual conversation. No need to dive any deeper.
Yes God ordains sin.
How?
I happen to agree with you i've always had a similar take on it and yep translations can be slightly off or confusing even with books outside the bible. Gotta appreciate them though, we don't have to learn another language or anything.The word in Hebrew means calamity or distress, not moral evil. The archaic language of the KJV uses 'evil' - a decent enough translation for the time it was written as evil could mean calamity - but not a good translation in modern English as it leads to confusion.
Does God allow moral evil?
Well, to provide an example: God ordained that Rehoboam would not listen to the people in his sinful pride so that he could tear the kingdom away from him (1 Kings 12:15).
Or like God ordaining the selling of Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20, Psalm 105:17).
Or like God ordaining that Samson sinfully desired to marry a Philistine (Judges 14:4).
I assume you've read the Bible before on this subject. If this is not God ordaining sin then what is it?
God ALLOWED Rehoboam to choose to not listen to his people. This sin on Rehoboam's part then allowed his people and his kingdom to be torn away.
God allowed Joseph to be sold into slavery. His brothers just wanted to get rid of him, but God saw matters another way, and it came to be to give glory to God. But the sin was on the part of his brothers. God only allowed them to sin (free will).
God allowed Samson to have the hots for Delilah--but as we can see of his past behavior, he had a problem keeping it in his pants. Because of Sampson's sin (along with Delilah's), Sampson lost his strength. True, God gave him back his strength, and the felling of the temple of Dagon was done for the glory of God.
Okay. I still don't understand your comment, though. But it's probably not that important.Post #211 in the The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.
Calvinism excludes (2) but does not exclude (1). Sinners voluntarily sin and regenerate worshippers of God voluntarily worship him. This is all we Calvinists mean when we say "freedom". This is usually what the common person means when they use this word in casual conversation. No need to dive any deeper.
does satan create anything?
imo satan perverted God's perfect creation - making God the only creator - and satan the one who steals/kills/destroys God's perfect creation
and Jesus the one who RESTORES all things/makes the all good again partly now via the Holy Spirit of God, and fully later via the manifest power of God
I'm afraid the language of these passages is much stronger than God allowing the sin to happen. These events are said to be from the Lord. Did God simply allow Jesus to be crucified by the hands of lawless men or did God plan this event to happen?
Well, to provide an example: God ordained that Rehoboam would not listen to the people in his sinful pride so that he could tear the kingdom away from him (1 Kings 12:15).
Or like God ordaining the selling of Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20, Psalm 105:17).
Or like God ordaining that Samson sinfully desired to marry a Philistine (Judges 14:4).
I assume you've read the Bible before on this subject. If this is not God ordaining sin then what is it?
then why does God say choose: Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Psalms 25:12Well, to provide an example: God ordained that Rehoboam would not listen to the people in his sinful pride so that he could tear the kingdom away from him (1 Kings 12:15).
Or like God ordaining the selling of Joseph into slavery (Genesis 50:20, Psalm 105:17).
Or like God ordaining that Samson sinfully desired to marry a Philistine (Judges 14:4).
Or like God ordaining that Jesus Christ be crucified (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28).
I assume you've read the Bible before on this subject. If this is not God ordaining sin then what is it?
imo it's best to be wise and choose to co-operate with God if you want to avoid creating trouble in your life and the lives of others, because God's plan will occur anyway
amen - well said - in a much shorter version than mineA great point. As Mordecai says to Esther, "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?"
God's plan (Christ dying for our salvation, the general arc of history, specific prophetic events, etc.) cannot be stopped by any action of man. But man still has a choice in his own individual life whether to obey or disobey, humble self or resist God in pride, etc.
Here's a place to start if you'd like some honest info about Reformed Theology.then why does God say choose: Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Psalms 25:12
why does God say do not harden your hearts but repent: Psalms 95:8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 3:8
if Matthew 22:14 says many are called and few are chosen doesn't that suggest God wanted people to choose His way? - it would make no sense to ask someone to choose to obey God if God pre-ordained their choice
imo, all the predestined scriptures speak of a reap-what-you-sow type of predestination - if you choose God, you reap/are predestined for eternal blessings - if you reject God you reap/are predestined for eternal punishment
of all the scriptures you quoted, they don't say "God ordained"
they can be reasonably interpreted to mean that no matter what man chooses, God has made a way for things to work out to an end that accomplishes God's will on earth
so each person can wisely choose to co-operate with God's plan - or they can foolishly choose to try to thwart God's plan - but no matter what, God's plan will be accomplished
iow, Joseph could have made it to 2nd in command over Egypt another way, but because Jacob created competition via favoritism, Joseph chose to become prideful, and his brothers chose to become jealously vengeful
imo it's best to be wise and choose to co-operate with God if you want to avoid creating trouble in your life and the lives of others, because God's plan will occur anyway
The ever-ready reply of Calvinists to objections is, "You don't understand Calvinism!"
that is not the problem we haveLol
Yall don't.
For some reason, you all can't wrap your heads around something like God knowing the outcome of what He created from the beginning, which inevitably spells predestination.
To say otherwise means putting a cap on God's own knowledge- the fact is, the Bible is ripe with Calvinism from Genesis to Jude. You're free will is just a few cherry picked verses that excuses yourself from yourself.
And that's ridiculous. John Calvin was the leader of the Reformation against the Church to right the wrongs you perpetuate.
Which is why I created the straw man thread, since this here is an example of one.that is not the problem we have
we have a problem with calvin saying God forces anyone to do/think/decide something
it's that part of calvin's predestination theology that is opposed/incomprehensible
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