Put Revelation in order

[visionary]

The great tribulation is the past 2000 years from the abomination that caused the desolation of the city/sanctuary to the sun/moon darkening/stars falling. The white robed multitude has "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb". The only people who have done that are the church...they are believers in Christ. Exodus 19:10-20 explains it.

Those who die during the reign of the beast are suffering the judgment and wrath of God. People are forced to choose whom they will serve during that time. Those who choose wisely will be rewarded.

There is also the literal endtime fulfillment... which will happen in rapid order and not as you explained..

Remember those who do not worship the beast during the "no buy or sell" period will be experiencing tribulation like nothing this world has ever experienced.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why... because Satan knows his time is short..

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Great Wrath... remember one third of the stars falling.

Revelation 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Revelation 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There is also the literal endtime fulfillment... which will happen in rapid order and not as you explained..

Remember those who do not worship the beast during the "no buy or sell" period will be experiencing tribulation like nothing this world has ever experienced.

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why... because Satan knows his time is short..

There are three problems with that:

#1. Jesus led us to believe that the abom of desolation is the desolation of the city/sanctuary from Daniel 9:26-27 as confirmed by Jesus' words at Matt 23:34-38 and Luke which says the abom of desolation is "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

#2. Jesus was talking to Israel. The tribulation was sent upon Israel FIRST (Ezek 14:21) because of the abom of desolation. The reason it's such a great tribulation is length and intensity for Israel (and the world).
They were never dispersed and chased "with the sword" for so long.

#3. The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall. Is it a coincidence that the sun/moon darkening/stars fall is Seal #6 and the wars, famines, plagues that were sent on Jerusalem (Ezek 14:21) is the same as the four riders of seals 1-4 which just so happen to also come before the sun/moon darken stars fall?

short hand version:

BOth Matt and Rev say this is the order of events:
1. Tribulation (which lasts from abom of des to sun/moon darkening includes the wars, famines, plagues) (seals 1-4)
2. Sun/moon darken/stars fall (Seal #6)
3. Judgment and wrath (trumpets, beasts, bowls)

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Great Wrath... remember one third of the stars falling.

Revelation 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


Revelation 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Well, that goes along with my previous point regarding the seals. Why do you think that the sun/moon darkening/stars falling of seal #6 is the fourth trumpet? REv 8 says the angels are given the trumpets when the SEVENTH seal is opened.

The sun/moon darkening/stars falling that is immediately after the great tribulation is the BEGINNING of the judgment and wrath of God. Rev 6, seal #6, says, "for the Day of Wrath has come and who shall be able to stand". Seal #7 is the outpouring of that judgment and wrath including the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls.

The tribulation (seals 1-4) is BEFORE the sun/moon darken (seal #6) and is the riders. The judgment and wrath of God is AFTER the sun/moon darken (seal #6) and is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls (all seal #7).

 

[visionary]

There are three problems with that:

#1. Jesus led us to believe that the abom of desolation is the desolation of the city/sanctuary from Daniel 9:26-27 as confirmed by Jesus' words at Matt 23:34-38 and Luke which says the abom of desolation is "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

No argument there.. but there is a bigger fulfillment when Jerusalem will again be surrounded.. kind of like it is now .. surrounded by Muslims... but without the support of any nation not even the USA.

#2. Jesus was talking to Israel. The tribulation was sent upon Israel FIRST (Ezek 14:21) because of the abom of desolation. The reason it's such a great tribulation is length and intensity for Israel (and the world).
They were never dispersed and chased "with the sword" for so long.

We are to never assume that Yeshua was only talking to one generation when we know His Words have a farsightedness in their commentary... that is why it is partial fulfillments... but in the end they will be glaring fulfillments.

#3. The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall. Is it a coincidence that the sun/moon darkening/stars fall is Seal #6 and the wars, famines, plagues that were sent on Jerusalem (Ezek 14:21) is the same as the four riders of seals 1-4 which just so happen to also come before the sun/moon darken stars fall?[

yep... Think about Yom Kippur for a moment.. it is to be a example of what is occurring in heaven... Do you know of any time where we could point our fingers and say.. this is the time that Satan is cast out of heaven... NO ... why... because the stars have not been cast out with him. Now in the Day of Atonement.. there is a time when the scape goat gets thrown out into the wilderness.. symbolic of Satan getting cast out of heaven.

short hand version:

BOth Matt and Rev say this is the order of events:
1. Tribulation (which lasts from abom of des to sun/moon darkening includes the wars, famines, plagues) (seals 1-4)
2. Sun/moon darken/stars fall (Seal #6)
3. Judgment and wrath (trumpets, beasts, bowls)

Trumpets are not wrath... but announcements... I will give you a separate post on the study of trumpets.. Trumpet troubles are given with mercy... not that it did any good.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Well, that goes along with my previous point regarding the seals. Why do you think that the sun/moon darkening/stars falling of seal #6 is the fourth trumpet? REv 8 says the angels are given the trumpets when the SEVENTH seal is opened.

I may have to do some more thinking on that one...

It could be that the trumpets come after all the seals are opened, then after all the trumpets have blown, then the bowls are poured out. If that is the case then.. First we are told... when the seal is opened... then we are warned with samples of plagues when the trumpets blow... then we are punished with the bowls of plagues.

That would make sense

The sun/moon darkening/stars falling that is immediately after the great tribulation is the BEGINNING of the judgment and wrath of God. Rev 6, seal #6, says, "for the Day of Wrath has come and who shall be able to stand". Seal #7 is the outpouring of that judgment and wrath including the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls.

how much time do you think it is between the sixth seal to the seventh seal?

The tribulation (seals 1-4) is BEFORE the sun/moon darken (seal #6) and is the riders. The judgment and wrath of God is AFTER the sun/moon darken (seal #6) and is the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls (all seal #7).

Take a look at Rev 10.. Prophecy again..... important point.

What it is saying is that when the Lord opened up the scroll... the seals were opened... and events occurred.. some of which we have seen over the last 2000 years.. but when the two witnesses are called up to eat the scroll and prophecy again... it is because now it is going to happen again, in rapid order.

 

[visionary]

For more trumpet references and purposes
Trumpets Used to Notify, Warn or Assemble Israel for War,
Numbers 10:2-9 Jeremiah 4:19 Amos 3:6 Numbers 31:6; Judges 3:27; Judges 6:34, 7:8-22 ; I Samuel 13:3
Trumpets Used as a Sound of Peace, End of Strife
II Samuel 2:28, 18:16, 20:22.
Trumpets Signified Crowning a King, or Revolt
IISamuell5:10;IISamuel2O:1;IKingsl:34,39;IIKings9:13;IlKings 11:12,14
Trumpet Used in Temple Worship
II Chronicles 5:3, 12-14, 7:6; ELra 3:6, 10, 11; I Chronicles 15:24, 16:42
God’s Voice is Full of Awesome Power, Like a Trumpet
Revelation 1:10-11 ; Revelation 4:1 ; Psalm 29
God’s Trumpet-Like Voice at Mt. Sinai
Exodus 19:16, 19; Exodus 20:18 ; Hebrews 12:18-29
Trumpets and LORD’s Judgment Day
Joel 2:1,2, 11; Zephaniah 1:6-7, 14-18; Psalm 98:6,9
Message of Day of Trumpets is that We Should Repent
Joel 2:1, 12-13,
Christ Comes to Rule Earth on the Last Trumpet
Rev. 11:15,
Trumpets, Atonement
Joel 2:15; Lev. 25:9

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

#3. The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

NOPE!! Matt 24:29 ~ Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[&Abel]

NOPE!! Matt 24:29 ~ Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

actually thats what she said

 

[&Abel]

5And (O)she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to (P)rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was (Q)caught up to God and to His throne. 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for (R)one thousand two hundred and sixty days.



25'Nevertheless (BN)what you have, hold fast (BO)until I come.
26'(BP)He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds (BQ)until the end, (BR)TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL (BS)RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, (BT)AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him (BU)the morning star.

29'(BV)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'



11And I saw (AK)heaven opened, and behold, a (AL)white horse, and He who sat on it is called (AM)Faithful and True, and in (AN)righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His (AO)eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many (AP)diadems; and He has a (AQ)name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a (AR)robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (AS)The Word of God.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in (AT)fine linen, (AU)white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15(AV)From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that (AW)with it He may strike down the nations, and He will (AX)rule them with a rod of iron; and (AY)He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

I think this is symbolic of the fact that those martyrs will follow the resurrected christ(which if you entertain my theory means that those who are still alive are 144,000 alone)


2Or (B)do you not know that (C)the saints will judge (D)the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3(E)Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

1(A)I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to (B)judge the living and the dead, and by His (C)appearing and His kingdom: 2preach (D)the word; be ready in season and out of season; (E)reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great (F)patience and instruction.

16on the day when, (AA)according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Psalm 98:9
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;He will judge the world with righteousnessAnd the peoples with equity.

Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Romans 3:6
May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

we're told that god will judge the world and yet the saints will judge the world...that he who OVERCOMES will rule with a rod of iron and christ will rule with a rod of iron

see what I'm getting at?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

actually thats what she said

Unless she said it further down somewhere, she said this...
#3. The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

 

[Super Kal]

I see the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh bowl all happening all at the same time

 

[&Abel]

Unless she said it further down somewhere, she said this...
#3. The tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

which means that the sun/mood darken/stars fall after the tribulation which is what the verse you posted says

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

which means that the sun/mood darken/stars fall after the tribulation which is what the verse you posted says

 

[&Abel]

thats exactly what Jen said:

the tribulation happens before the darkening of the sun etc

btw am I the only one whos noticed the over modding around here lately?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

BOth Matt and Rev say this is the order of events:
1. Tribulation (which lasts from abom of des to sun/moon darkening includes the wars, famines, plagues) (seals 1-4)
2. Sun/moon darken/stars fall (Seal #6)
3. Judgment and wrath (trumpets, beasts, bowls)

HUH The wars, famines, and pestilances are not the tribulation. Matthew 24 emphatically states that these things are the beginning of sorrows..Matt 24:6- ~ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
The tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation in Matt 24: 15-21 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The sun/moon darken, then the sign of Christ, then He comes, then we are gone, then the wrath...same day.

 

[&Abel]

6"You will be hearing of (H)wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7"For (I)nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be (J)famines and earthquakes.
8"(K)But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9"(L)Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and (M)you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will (N)fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11"Many (O)false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13"(P)But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14"This (Q)gospel of the kingdom (R)shall be preached in the whole (S)world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[&Abel]

anyone else consider all these pundits on CNN etc to be false prophets?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

anyone else consider all these pundits on CNN etc to be false prophets?

CNN and Fox News. I watch MSNBC because I love to hear them rave about how great Obama is, and how he is going to change the world. They believe that this guy is almost supernatural Makes me ill!!!!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

No argument there.. but there is a bigger fulfillment when Jerusalem will again be surrounded.. kind of like it is now .. surrounded by Muslims... but without the support of any nation not even the USA. We are to never assume that Yeshua was only talking to one generation when we know His Words have a farsightedness in their commentary... that is why it is partial fulfillments... but in the end they will be glaring fulfillments.
yep... Think about Yom Kippur for a moment.. it is to be a example of what is occurring in heaven... Do you know of any time where we could point our fingers and say.. this is the time that Satan is cast out of heaven... NO ... why... because the stars have not been cast out with him. Now in the Day of Atonement.. there is a time when the scape goat gets thrown out into the wilderness.. symbolic of Satan getting cast out of heaven.
Trumpets are not wrath... but announcements... I will give you a separate post on the study of trumpets.. Trumpet troubles are given with mercy... not that it did any good.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
I may have to do some more thinking on that one...

It could be that the trumpets come after all the seals are opened, then after all the trumpets have blown, then the bowls are poured out. If that is the case then.. First we are told... when the seal is opened... then we are warned with samples of plagues when the trumpets blow... then we are punished with the bowls of plagues.

That would make sense

I agree with just about all of that.

It's funny you mention the muslims surrounding Jerusalem..I think that's why the "tribulation", as Jesus defined it, has to be shortened. It's shortened for the sake of the elect. Jesus was sent to Israel. He's talking about what's coming upon Israel in Matt 24. The elect is the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and protected during the 7th seal (trumpets, beasts, bowls). The tribulation ends with a "northern army" invasion of Israel at the time of the sun/moon darkening/stars falling as Joel 2 points out. If God doesn't stop the Northern Army, Israel (and all the people God plans to seal who are of Israel) will be destroyed.

1. tribulation (since abom of des of city/sanctuary until sun/moon darken)
2. sun/moon darkening/stars fall (Northern army invasion) - "Day of Wrath has begun and who shall be able to stand".
3. outpouring of wrath (trumpets/beasts/bowls)


Ever notice that Daniel's weeks of years were not halted between the 69th/70th week but in the middle of the 70th week. The surrounding by armies at the beginning of the 70th week led to the destruction/desolation but this time the surrounding by armies/invasion leads to God stepping in to destroy the invaders and sealing a remnant whom he protects through the final 3 1/2 years.

how much time do you think it is between the sixth seal to the seventh seal?

I think seals 5-7 are opened consecutively, together, just like the first four were sent out consecutively, together about 2000 years ago.

(Ezek 14:21 is the same as the four seals of Rev 6/Zech6)

The scroll has two sides according to Zechariah. I think the first side has 4 seals and the second side has three.

Take a look at Rev 10.. Prophecy again..... important point.

What it is saying is that when the Lord opened up the scroll... the seals were opened... and events occurred.. some of which we have seen over the last 2000 years.. but when the two witnesses are called up to eat the scroll and prophecy again... it is because now it is going to happen again, in rapid order.

...two witnesses "called up to eat the scroll and prophecy again"???

I think the little scroll in Rev 10 is a warning/sign to Israel that they missed it in regards to the church and the promises it was given. There's an OT passage that speaks similarly...I'll find it...hold on.

Eze 3:1And he said to me, "Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the house of Israel."
Eze 3:2So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat.
Eze 3:3Then he said to me, "Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it." So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.
Eze 3:4He then said to me: "Son of man, go now to the house of Israel and speak my words to them.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The wedding is Yom Kippur.. the wedding supper is during the millennium. Two different events... but most people do not even know when the wedding is.. the parables talk about ...

Matthew 25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.....6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

It was a common custom that the bridegroom would come when he had prepared the wedding itself and the new home for his bride. His father was the only one who would determine when the son had done enough and everything was prepared for the wedding.

I would imagine that the wedding is when the bride is given her bridal clothes, "white robes", "fine linen, clean and bright was given her to wear"....seal #5...after the tribulation (seals 1-4) that began after Jesus ascended and before the sun/moon darken/stars fall (Seal #6) and the Day of Wrath (trumpets/beasts/bowls) begins (Seal #7).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

HUH The wars, famines, and pestilances are not the tribulation. Matthew 24 emphatically states that these things are the beginning of sorrows..Matt 24:6- ~ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
The tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation in Matt 24: 15-21 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The sun/moon darken, then the sign of Christ, then He comes, then we are gone, then the wrath...same day.

I said the tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken/stars fall which is the EXACT SAME THING as saying the sun/moon darken/stars fall is AFTER the tribulation which is the EXACT SAME THING as saying "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun/moon darken/stars fall".

Order of events:

1. Tribulation - wars, famines, plagues, persecution, martyrdom (Seals 1-4)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall, Day of Wrath has begun (Seal #6)
3. outpouring of wrath (seal #7 - trumpets, beasts, bowls)
Jesus comes. (catching away was seal #5)


You're confused because you are not understanding what the abomination of desolation is. Jesus told you in Matt 23:34-38 and Luke makes it very clear in Luke 21. (Daniel 9:27 is giving details about the latter part of 9:26) Jesus doesn't mention the trumpets, the beasts, or the bowls in Matt 24 other than to say "wrath". They happen after the sun/moon darken/stars fall and are part of the wrath of God before Christ comes.


The four seal riders were sent out when Jesus ascended. Rev 5 & 6, Ezek 14:21, Zech 6. They are described as RIDERS for a reason. They continually ride until the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

 

[visionary]

I would imagine that the wedding is when the bride is given her bridal clothes, "white robes", "fine linen, clean and bright was given her to wear"....seal #5...after the tribulation (seals 1-4) that began after Jesus ascended and before the sun/moon darken/stars fall (Seal #6) and the Day of Wrath (trumpets/beasts/bowls) begins (Seal #7).

That sounds about right... except the part about Yeshua's ascension. Yeshua ascended before John even got the revelation. So all things in the the revelation are related to what is going happen after.. aprox 90 AD when the revelation was given.. . hence there is not earthly temple.. it was destroyed in 70 AD.