Purgatory, a unique Catholic doctrine

[W2L]

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, before the Scriptures were written?

How did illiterate people verify whether or not a teaching was true?

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, who did not have access to one of the handwritten copies of the Scriptures?

They compared it to the OT scriptures. Acts 17:11 Also, the Lord said that those who followed Him would do miracles. That's a sign of a true apostle

 

[Sam91]

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, before the Scriptures were written?

How did illiterate people verify whether or not a teaching was true?

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, who did not have access to one of the handwritten copies of the Scriptures?

It's when they contradict scripture that you know for sure that it is untrue.

Otherwise, I just have to concede that I just don't know, pray and trust in God.

Also I wasn't there before scripture was written so I can't 'imagine' an answer. Maybe someone else has read sources as to what they did. Maybe that's why our Father sent prophets before that until Jesus came.

He promised in Jeremiah 31:33 and Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit John 16:8-15 to lead us and teach us these things and 1 John 2:27 confirms this.

EDIT
Maybe it was why He appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush.
He spent a lot more time with Moses on that mountain when Moses got the Ten Commandments and that was when the Torah came into being. Just hypothesis though.

 

[PeaceB]

They compared it to the OT scriptures. Acts 17:11 Also, the Lord said that those who followed Him would do miracles. That's a sign of a true apostle

It's when they contradict scripture that you know for sure that it is untrue.

Otherwise, I just have to concede that I just don't know, pray and trust in God.

Also I wasn't there before scripture was written so I can't 'imagine' an answer. Maybe someone else has read sources as to what they did. Maybe that's why our Father sent prophets before that until Jesus came.

He promised in Jeremiah 31:33 and Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit John 16:8-15 to lead us and teach us these things and 1 John 2:27 confirms this.

Thanks for the responses. I'll have to get back to ya'll later to continue this discussion.

 

[kepha31]

The only thing remotely similar to Purgatory that I have ever seen in scripture are the passages regarding final judgment. But as Christians, though we will have to acknowledge the full weight of our sins, we have nothing to fear because we have been covered with the perfect righteousness of Christ.

There is at first the intermediate state when we are separated from our body, aware but noncorporeal, aware of the unmediated presence of God. We remain in this state until the Resurrection at which we will be clothed again in perfected flesh to live in the new earth in all righteousness and blessedness forever.

The following chapter gives a good idea of what awaits us when we pass from this vale of tears.

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
...
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

These verses have nothing to do with purgatory. Try
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Better still,
Purgatory: Refutation of James White (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
I'd like to see a plausible alternate interpretation instead of a meaningless "I disagree".

 

[kepha31]

They all need tested against scripture. People were already trying to distort the gospel in the time of the apostles.

What did the Church use to determine distorted gospels from authentic scripture? The Apostles were long dead before the canon was completed.

Q: In Matthew 15:1-9 (the "you make void the word of God by your tradition" passage), didn't Jesus indicate that any tradition which contradicts Scripture is false, meaning that we must test traditions by Scripture, meaning that tradition is inferior to Scripture?

A: It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.

This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."

So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.

 

[Tangible]

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura exclude divinely revealed truths apart from those contained in Scripture?

Sure, as long as it doesn't conflict with scripture there is a great deal of room for pious options. Lutherans historically confess PV for example.

 

[Tangible]

Try
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Related. Eisegetically, that is.

 

[kepha31]

Purgatory, as we all know, is a Late Medieval invention that was taught in a certain way for about 500 years. Lately, it's been reconsidered by the Roman Catholic Church. So we have the original teaching that supposedly was infallible because the Magisterium agreed upon it--a sort of temporary Hell that everyone who is saved will pass through to "pay" for all minor sins and, also, mortal sins already forgiven--and we also have the revised but unofficial one which is a vaguely defined transitional period or state that's more like an orientation session prior to one's entrance into Heaven. It's been described as the "Celestial Showerbath" (or washroom) by some.

The problem (if that's what it should be called) is that all discussions of this sort founder on the fact that there are two views of Purgatory--the standard one and the whitewashed version that's recently only been created because there aren't many Catholics any longer who will believe in the standard and historic Purgatory.

I think, in addition, that the standard definition may be seen by the church as inhibiting its efforts at outreach, ecumenical relationships, and "come home" campaigns. This probably is enough in itself to justify ditching Purgatory like Limbo was ditched before.

What a load of crap!

 

[kepha31]

Related. Eisegetically, that is.

Maybe the post was too long and you missed it.
Try
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Better still,
Purgatory: Refutation of James White (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
I'd like to see a plausible alternate interpretation instead of a meaningless "Related. Eisegetically, that is"
I'll re-phrase:
What is the correct interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 that makes sense.

 

[kepha31]

The term "purgatory" is not in the Bible, but the teaching is. Just like the term "Incarnation" and "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but the teaching is. It is not a "Catholic invention" but part our Jewish heritage, although the Jews do not use the term "purgatory".

Jews do believe in a purification (a purgation) which takes place after death. When a Jewish person's loved one dies, it is customary to pray on his behalf for eleven months using a prayer known as the mourner's Qaddish (derived from the Hebrew word meaning "holy"). This prayer is used to ask God to hasten the purification of the loved one's soul. The Qaddish is prayed for only eleven months because it is thought to be an insult to imply that the loved one's sins were so severe that he would require a full year of purification.

The practice of praying for the dead has been part of the Jewish faith since before Christ. Remember that 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, on which Catholics base their observance of this practice, shows that, a century and a half before Christ, prayer for the dead was taken for granted. Unlike Protestantism, Catholicism has preserved this authentic element of Judeo-Christian faith.
Do devout Jews believe in purgatory? | Catholic Answers
You can dismiss 2 Maccabees as uninspired if you want, I don't care. But to ignore it as Jewish history is severing your own roots.

The purpose of purgatory is to purify us so that we are thoroughly holy and thus fit for heaven. It is part of the process by which we gain "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" Heb. 12:14
But the process of purification doesn’t start in purgatory. It starts in this life, and in Protestant circles it’s known as sanctification. (Catholics also use this term, though not always in exactly the same fashion; the term justification is also used in both circles though not always in the same ways.)

Now, where does sanctification come from? Is it something God gives us by his grace or something that happens apart from his grace?

Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is the product of God’s grace in our lives.

But why is God giving us this grace? Is it because of what his Son did on the Cross or is it separate from that?

Once again, Protestants will agree with Catholics that it is because of what Christ did on the Cross that God sanctifies us.

So sanctification–the process of being made holy–is something that happens to us only because of Christ’s death on the Cross.

Sanctification–including the final stage of sanctification in purgatory–thus presupposes the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. It is so sufficient that it is not only enough to justify us but enough to sanctify us as well. The difference is that (to use language in a Protestant way) justification is something that happens at the beginning of the Christian life while sanctification is something that happens over the course of it.
Purgatory & The Sufficiency Of Christ’s Sacrifice
The statement that I see too frequently "purgatory denies the all sufficiency of Christ" is really dumb.

 

[kepha31]

1. "The Catholic Church has this massive doctrine of purgatory."

This is quite false. As an illustration of this, the section on purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032). In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living. Among the things the Church does not insist on are the ideas that purgatory is a place or that it takes time, as we shall see below.

2. "Invented in the middle ages."

The idea that purgatory is a late invention is similarly false. In fact, it has been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief (see below), but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as The Life of Adam and Eve, which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day.

It was also part of the true religion in Jesus' day, as the writings of the New Testament show. And it has been part of the true religion ever since Christ's day, as the writings of the Church Fathers show (see the Catholic Answers pamphlet: "The Fathers Know Best: Purgatory").

Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term "purgatory" for it), as do Orthodox Jews. In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person's loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one's purification.

Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today.
How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

 

[W2L]

T
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

I'd like to see a plausible alternate interpretation instead of a meaningless "I disagree".

I dont see purgatory in that scripture

 

[Tangible]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

For the benefit of those playing along at home:

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Using the principle that scripture interprets scripture, it is not difficult to understand this passage as follows:

1) This is about the Last Day, the Parousia, a specific moment of time (kairos not chronos), not some on-going purging of indefinite duration or divine punishment for sins already atoned for by the work of Jesus Christ and forgiven, because ...

2) In Matthew 28:31-46 we see the same event viewed from another eschatological perspective. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats Jesus explains how the fruits of our lives (of which we are probably completely unaware: "Lord, when did we...?") are weighed and tallied. Those whose works flow from faith in Christ, whose works are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, will enter into God's kingdom to the place prepared for them. Those whose works were not from faith in Christ are dispatched to eternal fire (Malachi 4:1).

3) Even those whose works flow from faith in Christ have a mixture of faithful and unfaithful works, we are simultaneously justified and sinful after all. Those works done from faith in Christ endure and are celebrated to the glory of God. Those not done from faith are sinful trash (Romans 14:23) and perish with the fallen, sinful world to which they belong. The works of the Sheep are judged, sifted, winnowed, and passed through a fiery crucible (Proverbs 17:3): gold and wood, silver and hay, precious stones and straw. Those that were from faith in Christ are kept, those from the flesh are commended to the flames.

4) So even those who are save by God will be purified on the Last Day. At the Resurrection we will all stand before God to give an account of our lives (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:12). Those who trust in their supposed good works, who seek to justify themselves through obedience to the law, will be condemned for their failure to perfectly observe the law in which they placed their faith. Those who acknowledge their utter sinfulness and call to Christ alone for mercy will receive mercy from the hand of God. "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, St Luke 18)

 

[W2L]

For the benefit of those playing along at home:

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Using the principle that scripture interprets scripture, it is not difficult to understand this passage as follows:

1) This is about the Last Day, the Parousia, a specific moment of time (kairos not chronos), not some on-going purging of indefinite duration or divine punishment for sins already atoned for by the work of Jesus Christ and forgiven, because ...

2) In Matthew 28:31-46 we see the same event viewed from another eschatological perspective. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats Jesus explains how the fruits of our lives (of which we are probably completely unaware: "Lord, when did we...?") are weighed and tallied. Those whose works flow from faith in Christ, whose works are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, will enter into God's kingdom to the place prepared for them. Those whose works were not from faith in Christ are dispatched to eternal fire.

3) Even those whose works flow from faith in Christ have a mixture of faithful and unfaithful works, we are simultaneously justified and sinful after all. Those works done from faith in Christ endure and are celebrated to the glory of God. Those not done from faith are sinful trash (Romans 14:23) and perish with the fallen, sinful world to which they belong. The works of the Sheep are judged, sifted, winnowed, and passed through a fiery crucible: gold and wood, silver and hay, precious stones and straw. Those that were from faith in Christ are kept, those from the flesh are disposed of.

4) So even those who are save by God will be purified on the Last Day. At the Resurrection we will all stand before God to give an account of our lives (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:12). Those who trust in their supposed good works, who seek to justify themselves through obedience to the law, will be condemned for their failure to perfectly observe the law in which they placed their faith. Those who acknowledge their utter sinfulness and call to Christ alone for mercy will receive mercy from the hand of God. "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, St Luke 18)

Those scriptures are not about purgatory. They are most likely referring to the trials and tribulations will must all face.



Faith purified through fire of tribulation

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

 

[Tangible]

Those scriptures are not about purgatory. They are most likely referring to the trials and tribulations will must all face.

Both/And

 

[kepha31]

Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell. read more here

 

[Sam91]

Those scriptures are not about purgatory. They are most likely referring to the trials and tribulations will must all face.



Faith purified through fire of tribulation

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

That was also the scripture which leapt into my mind.

Goodnight all. May the Lord keep you, and His face shine upon you. Be blessed!!

 

[W2L]

That was also the scripture which leapt into my mind.

Goodnight all. May the Lord keep you, and His face shine upon you. Be blessed!!

Good night.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Didn't your teacher ever tell you not to trust Wikipedia?

Lutherans were the first to use the slogan Sola Scriptura to refer to the practice of norming dogma and doctrine according to scripture. They did not invent the practice. It had been in use since the beginning of the Church. They were simply the first to give it a name and a definition.

Differing ideas that others have called sola scriptura, most notably solo scriptura, are not the same thing.

(It's amusing to me how on the one hand Roman Catholics will deride "protestants" for not having a single confession, as if Protestantism were monolithic, and on the other hand decry the astronomical number of "sects" or "cults" comprising their conception of Protestantism.)

The Lutheran reformers discuss Sola Scriptura here: The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord

Perhaps the most succinct confession is here ...

Dr. Luther himself in the Latin preface to his published works has given necessary and Christian admonition concerning his writings, and has expressly drawn this distinction namely, that the Word of God alone should be and remain the only standard and rule of doctrine, to which the writings of no man should be regarded as equal, but to which everything should be subjected.

10] But [this is not to be understood as if] hereby other good, useful, pure books, expositions of the Holy Scriptures, refutations of errors, explanations of doctrinal articles, are not rejected; for as far as they are consistent with the above-mentioned type of doctrine, these are regarded as useful expositions and explanations, and can be used with advantage. But what has thus far been said concerning the summary of our Christian doctrine is intended to mean only this, that we should have a unanimously accepted, definite, common form of doctrine, which all our evangelical churches together and in common confess, from and according to which, because it has been derived from God's Word, all other writings should be judged and adjusted as to how far they are to be approved and accepted.

Thank you. I find it curious that Catholics seem to be fixated on sola scriptura but generally ignore the equally significant doctrines of sola gratia and sola fide.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura include or exclude Sacred Tradition?

Which Sacred Tradition? There are a lot of Sacred Traditions in this world.