Purgatory, a unique Catholic doctrine

[Tangible]

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia

Sola scriptura (Latin: by Scripture alone) is a Christian theological doctrine which holds that the Christian Scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

Didn't your teacher ever tell you not to trust Wikipedia?

Lutherans were the first to use the slogan Sola Scriptura to refer to the practice of norming dogma and doctrine according to scripture. They did not invent the practice. It had been in use since the beginning of the Church. They were simply the first to give it a name and a definition.

Differing ideas that others have called sola scriptura, most notably solo scriptura, are not the same thing.

(It's amusing to me how on the one hand Roman Catholics will deride "protestants" for not having a single confession, as if Protestantism were monolithic, and on the other hand decry the astronomical number of "sects" or "cults" comprising their conception of Protestantism.)

The Lutheran reformers discuss Sola Scriptura here: The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord

Perhaps the most succinct confession is here ...

Dr. Luther himself in the Latin preface to his published works has given necessary and Christian admonition concerning his writings, and has expressly drawn this distinction namely, that the Word of God alone should be and remain the only standard and rule of doctrine, to which the writings of no man should be regarded as equal, but to which everything should be subjected.

10] But [this is not to be understood as if] hereby other good, useful, pure books, expositions of the Holy Scriptures, refutations of errors, explanations of doctrinal articles, are not rejected; for as far as they are consistent with the above-mentioned type of doctrine, these are regarded as useful expositions and explanations, and can be used with advantage. But what has thus far been said concerning the summary of our Christian doctrine is intended to mean only this, that we should have a unanimously accepted, definite, common form of doctrine, which all our evangelical churches together and in common confess, from and according to which, because it has been derived from God's Word, all other writings should be judged and adjusted as to how far they are to be approved and accepted.

 

[PloverWing]

Our souls deserved hell not purgatory and were in need of salvation. When Jesus paid the price on the cross for the sins of the world he said, "it is finished" the veil to the holy of hollies was torn in two from top to bottom exposing the most holy place to all. Of course we need to go through a transformation to stand before God as we certainly are not worthy.

I think we have substantial agreement here. Our salvation comes through the work of Christ alone. At the same time, I have hope for genuine, total transformation of my life, not merely a legal entrance pass into heaven (as vitally important as that entrance pass is). I may not be fully free of sin by the time I die; in fact, I expect that there will still be sins that I wrestle with my whole life. Thus, I hope that after death, God completes my transformation so that I am no longer ensnared by sin. I call that hope "purgatory". You can call it something else if you like. I have no way of knowing whether it will be quick or slow, painful or easy.

I researched the development of the doctrine of purgatory back when I was an undergraduate, reading the writings of assorted patristic and medieval theologians. From what I could see, belief in purgatory developed gradually over a few centuries. I view it as a speculative doctrine, one that goes beyond what we know from Scripture and the writings of the earliest church, but still making some reasonable guesses about some questions that reasonably arise about the afterlife. In true Anglican fashion , I neither accept everything taught by the Catholic magisterium nor reject everything that is not in Scripture. I see purgatory as being in that in-between ground, an interesting guess about a matter that we don't know with certainty.

 

[PeaceB]

Didn't your teacher ever tell you not to trust Wikipedia?

Lutherans were the first to use the slogan Sola Scriptura to refer to the practice of norming dogma and doctrine according to scripture. They did not invent the practice. It had been in use since the beginning of the Church. They were simply the first to give it a name and a definition.

Differing ideas that others have called sola scriptura, most notably solo scriptura, are not the same thing.

(It's amusing to me how on the one hand Roman Catholics will deride "protestants" for not having a single confession, as if Protestantism were monolithic, and on the other hand decry the astronomical number of "sects" or "cults" comprising their conception of Protestantism.)

The Lutheran reformers discuss Sola Scriptura here: The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord - Book of Concord

Perhaps the most succinct confession is here ...

Dr. Luther himself in the Latin preface to his published works has given necessary and Christian admonition concerning his writings, and has expressly drawn this distinction namely, that the Word of God alone should be and remain the only standard and rule of doctrine, to which the writings of no man should be regarded as equal, but to which everything should be subjected.

10] But [this is not to be understood as if] hereby other good, useful, pure books, expositions of the Holy Scriptures, refutations of errors, explanations of doctrinal articles, are not rejected; for as far as they are consistent with the above-mentioned type of doctrine, these are regarded as useful expositions and explanations, and can be used with advantage. But what has thus far been said concerning the summary of our Christian doctrine is intended to mean only this, that we should have a unanimously accepted, definite, common form of doctrine, which all our evangelical churches together and in common confess, from and according to which, because it has been derived from God's Word, all other writings should be judged and adjusted as to how far they are to be approved and accepted.

That's nice, but why are you quoting the sixth and ignoring the first? The very same document says:

1. First [, then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart] the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.​

Sounds a lot like Wikipedia to me.

 

[Tangible]

That's nice, but why are you quoting the sixth and ignoring the first? The very same document says:

1. First [, then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart] the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.​

Sounds a lot like Wikipedia to me.

It's incomplete. That's the problem with slogans like "Sola Scriptura" or "Papal Infallibility"; they are too easily misinterpreted. You can't make a meaningful theological statement in just a few words. Good theology won't fit on a bumper sticker.

 

[PeaceB]

The Lord is my shepherd. Also, i follow the teachings of the Lord.

Some of them, yes.

 

[W2L]

Some of them, yes.

So you're saying i must be perfect like you? OK, if you can boast so will i.

I have endured the Lords chastening, found victory over sin, found spiritual healing, and been given long awaited peace, Joy, and love. I persevered and reaped fruit of the spirit.

I doubt that God is displeased with me. The proof is within. You judge me against your Catholic beliefs but God Judges me according to the word. He teaches me, comforts me, gives me joy, strength, peace and love.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

[PeaceB]

It's incomplete. That's the problem with slogans like "Sola Scriptura" or "Papal Infallibility"; they are too easily misinterpreted. You can't make a meaningful theological statement in just a few words. Good theology won't fit on a bumper sticker.

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura include or exclude Sacred Tradition?

 

[PeaceB]

So you're saying i must be perfect like you? OK, if you can boast so will i.

I have endured the Lords chastening, found victory over sin, found spiritual healing, and been given long awaited peace, Joy, and love. I persevered and reaped fruit of the spirit.

I doubt that God is displeased with me. The proof is within. You judge me against your Catholic beliefs but God Judges me according to the word. He teaches me, comforts me, gives me joy, strength, peace and love.

Jesus calls both of us to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect. And no, I did not state that I am perfect.

And I am glad that your relationship with Jesus Christ has improved.

 

[W2L]

Jesus calls both of us to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect. And no, I did not state that I am perfect.

And I am glad that your relationship with Jesus Christ has improved.

Ok, thank you.

 

[Tangible]

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura include or exclude Sacred Tradition?

It includes the canonical scriptures, tradition that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, theology both ancient and modern that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, sermons and proclamations that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures, and personal statements that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures.

 

[Sam91]

So you're saying i must be perfect like you? OK, if you can boast so will i.

I have endured the Lords chastening, found victory over sin, found spiritual healing, and been given long awaited peace, Joy, and love. I persevered and reaped fruit of the spirit.

I doubt that God is displeased with me. The proof is within. You judge me against your Catholic beliefs but God Judges me according to the word. He teaches me, comforts me, gives me joy, strength, peace and love.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1 John 2 also testifies as to whether you are in Christ and you my friend seem very much to be a brother.

 

[W2L]

1 John also testifies as to whether you are in Christ and you my friend seem very much to be a brother.

Thank you sister, for your kind words.

 

[Fidelibus]

It is not a uniquely Catholic doctrine, as you state, although Protestants reject it by and large.

This is so true, something that Protestants fail to understand is that Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only was it practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today.

I would ask if any Protestant ever heard of the Jewish prayer..... "The Mourner's Kaddish?" If not, it is a prayer that is recited (to this day) by Orthodox Jews for 11 mos. after the death of a loved one so that he or she may be purifed. I am curious as to why in all the threads, and discussions on Purgatory why I have yet to see Protestants lambast the O.J. on their practice of praying for their loved ones purification, but have no problem doing so to Catholics?

There is graffiti in the catacombs where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. So keeping this in mind, one can only conclude, It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.



In closing I'd like to ask my Protestant brothers and sisters, if one is in hell, do you beleive there is a chance of being saved? And, if one was in heaven, is there any chance of suffering?

 

[faroukfarouk]

It includes the canonical scriptures, tradition that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, theology both ancient and modern that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, sermons and proclamations that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures, and personal statements that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures.

The Scriptures are God's Word and not man's comment on them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hebrews 1 says that the Lord Jesus 'having by Himself purged our sins, sat down', having carried out a completed work gloriously.

 

[W2L]

In closing I'd like to ask my Protestant brothers and sisters, if one is in hell, do you beleive there is a chance of being saved? And, if one was in heaven, is there any chance of suffering?

1) I would hope so.

2) Yes. Colossians 3 teaches us that we have died with Christ and are risen with Him as well. Our life is hidden with Christ in God. This teaching is about walking by faith not sight, among other things. We look at the eternal things where there is no suffering, and we dont look at the temporary things which includes our suffering, which we will surely endure in this life. Its as if we are in heaven in the spirit, but in the flesh on earth. In my opinion.

 

[PeaceB]

It includes the canonical scriptures, tradition that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, theology both ancient and modern that is in accordance with those canonical scriptures, sermons and proclamations that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures, and personal statements that are in accordance with those canonical scriptures.

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura exclude divinely revealed truths apart from those contained in Scripture?

 

[Sam91]

Does "God's Word" in your definition of Sola Scriptura exclude divinely revealed truths apart from those contained in Scripture?

They all need tested against scripture. People were already trying to distort the gospel in the time of the apostles.

 

[faroukfarouk]

They all need tested against scripture. People were already trying to distort the gospel in the time of the apostles.

Well, exactly; Hebrews 9 and 10 are particularly relevant here.

 

[PeaceB]

They all need tested against scripture. People were already trying to distort the gospel in the time of the apostles.

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, before the Scriptures were written?

How did illiterate people verify whether or not a teaching was true?

How did people verify whether or not a teaching was true, who did not have access to one of the handwritten copies of the Scriptures?